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Protesting the Poor Treatment of Thane Krios' Romance


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#1
JECW

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This message was sent to me from Visii. She asked me to post this on her behalf.


Protesting the Poor Treatment of Thane

The Retcon
TL;DR: Thane's character swung from resigned with his coming death to determined and passionate about his life, and then back to the former. That's not development, that's flip-flopping.

In ME2, once recruited, Thane was cool and emotionless regarding his mortality. His wife had been dead for a decade, and he had been separated from his son during that period while he hunted down her killers. Revenge exacted, he took on the Dantius commission in the hopes of putting an end to his life. If reunited with Kolyat and romanced, Thane becomes increasingly distressed over the prospect of dying; he has people to love and lose, people who will mourn him when he dies. The culmination of the romance scene illustrated Thane's change in perspective; no longer was he resigned and unemotional about his mortality. In Mass Effect 3, romanced or otherwise Thane is back to the way he was at the beginning of ME2. This is wrong.

The Illness
TL;DR: Keprals should have been curable, or the disease stabilized to extend Thane's life so that he could live long enough to receive the Hanar cure. Too much foreshadowing was made and all of it was ignored.

Keprals Syndrome to me was tipping towards the ridiculous when it came to Thane, just as the multiple rapes in Jack's history overburdened her already tragic childhood. It was more than enough that his wife was murdered as a result of his profession. The effect Keprals syndrome had in ME2 was much like Miranda's father, unseen and only spoken of in distant terms, a specter of the future. Time is important here.

Directly after being recruited, during the first conversation on the Normandy, Thane mentioned that the Hanar were working on a cure; he just didn't expect that he would live long enough to benefit from it. In Lair of the Shadow Broker, Thane's dossier showed that he was an eligible transplant candidate, but he refused; it is unclear when it occurred, so it is unknown whether or not he refused pre- or post meeting Shepard. But the important information here is that it was possible for Thane to receive a transplant that would extend his life. There would not need to be a miracle cure because there was already one in the works by the Hanar. In addition, the CDN mentioned a new medigel for the lungs that would revolutionize internal medicine; I hope I need not explain how this could immediately benefit Thane.

And yet, all that foreshadowing, dismissed. There was hope; not hope from desperate fans reaching for any half-baked scrap of information to support their claim, but hope born of game-provided evidence. This was a slap in the face. If Thane was always slated to die, why give any of it at all? Why have Thane mention that the Hanar were working on a cure? Why put in Thane's Shadow Broker Dossier that he was an eligible transplant candidate? Why release on the CDN information about a medigel for the lungs, when that information would only be of interest to a select group of the fan base? Why recognize the "Cure Thane in ME3" banner, giving more hope to fans? If this isn't trolling, I don't know any other name for it.

In the Mass Effect universe, Shepard was been brought back to life from unquestionable death. Mordin threw together a Genophage cure. Making those two things happen while stating that extending Thane's life wasn't possible despite all this information is simply contradictory and nonsensical.
_________

The Romance
TL;DR: If in ME3 Thane's romance was "bittersweet" someone, or a lot of someones, forgot the "sweet" part. This was not "satisfying".


At the end of ME2, Thane and Shepard had begun a relationship. Most of Thane's dialogue was not romance related; out of all the ME2 romances, the only other characters with less romantic dialogue are Samara/Morinth and Kelly (the VS too, I suppose, but they bloody made up for it in Mass Effect 3, didn't they?). During Lair of the Shadow Broker, Liara asks if Shepard is fighting for Thane, to spend time with him before the inevitable, that it is not how long they have together, but how they spend that time.

A beautiful, bittersweet sentiment. However, Thane and Shepard get almost no time together, either on-screen or off. After Arrival, Shepard is taken into custody for the next six months, three months longer than Thane expected he would be without symptoms. When found at Huerta memorial, he is in the final stages of Keprals syndrome. The difference in dialogue between a Shepard that romanced Thane and one that did not is minimal, and there is no option to ask Thane about a transplant (even though the game checks if LOtSB was completed) or the medigel for the lungs, or the state of the Hanar cure, or even the "alien medigel only of interest to the Hanar" that could be found during that one N7 mission.

With the exception of Jacob, all the other LI's get dates and special scenes and private moments. One kissing scene does not constitute as a romance continuation. If they theme was a bittersweet, premature end to a relationship, where was the sweet part? Not in ME3, that's for certain.

Thane's Death
TL:DR: Both the death itself and the aftermath was done so poorly that it should not have happened. It was not beautiful, it was not touching. It was disgusting. And because the "romance" that came before it was so threadbare and unispired, it fails on the very fronts it needed to succeed at to be considered successful and satisfying to those who had no way to avoid losing a favorite character/LI.

I would say that the majority of Thane fans had accepted the possibility of Thane's death, despite all the alleged foreshadowing from the previous games and DLC. We had many other reasons than the obvious to pray that it wouldn't come to pass; in previous ME games, death has not been handled properly. Fiery explosions and heroic sacrifice are all well and good, but if no one in the universe remembers that a character had ever lived, why should I care if they died? In Mass Effect 2, during the Suicide Mission, Shepard shrugs and moves on no matter who died, even their LI. None of the other squad mates even mentioned that they had lost some of their number after the fact. This dismissive treatment was something we all feared more than Thane's death itself; he wouldn't just die, he also wouldn't be remembered. And that was exactly how it went.

Right after that tearjerking (/sarcasm) goodbye, does Shepard get to talk to anyone about losing Thane, romanced or otherwise? Does any other ME2 character mention him? No, but he gets his name on that wall!

If the aftermath of a character's death cannot be handled with as much care as the death was, then the character shouldn't die. Period. Why was Thane the only one fighting Kai-Leng? Why was Shepard and the others just standing uselessly with their guns drawn? Why does the nurse at the hospital mention that Thane needs more blood and then states more blood won't do any good?

Why do those who romanced Thane get the exact same Lair of the Shadow Broker goodbye letter, if they already romanced Thane? It understandable, that it was made available for those who didn't play Lair of the Shadow Broker, who didn't or couldn't go on the internet to look it up, but what did those who had already read it get? Nothing! Nothing new, more of the same and bitterly inadequate, given Thane fans are the only ones who are forced to see their LI die in game, on camera, with no way to avert it.


To End,

Thane's treatment, along with all the other ME2 LI's in ME3, was simply unacceptable. In no way, shape or fashion, was there a satisfying conclusion to Thane's romance. Like Jacob, Miranda and Jack's, there was simply not enough interaction between them and Shepard. They couldn't be on the squad? Fine. But what about video messages, or emails? Would a series of emails, non-rendered, text on a page from the absent LI have been too much to ask for to fill the gaps?

Bring back Thane. It certainly wouldn't be the first time, (Leliana, Shepard) that a character has been brought back from certain death. There is no salvaging what was given to us, it cannot remain in this form.

Edited by JECW, 15 March 2012 - 08:02 PM.


#2
Aello89

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Since I agree on many accounts with Visii I'll only share my view on few elements of Thane's romance that truly boggle my mind.

I cannot argue that some things were done well and gave you a feeling of satisfaction. I enjoyed the first conversation with Thane at the hospital, the interrupt was a nice thing to add and so were some lines. I was proud and amazed by the Kai Leng fight. It was proved once more to me that Thane really is a bamf, strong and dedicated despite his illness and all the sorrows he went through in his life.  I cannot say that the death scene was awful and didn't do service to the character. It did. But I'm not viewing this from the perspective of NON-ROMANCED Thane. In such of NON-ROMANCED Thane I find this ending satisfying. Him taking his last stand, giving it all before his life ends. And despite everything that could be his last wish is for you. All this is right and well IF you DIDN'T ROMANCE him.
 
But from the perspective of ROMANCED Thane, all you get is a feeling of emptiness and despair. Here are the reasons why I feel so:
 
The end of ME2 and the romance scene between Shepard and Thane showed us an inner conflict between overseeing death and a will to live. Life itself suddenly held a greater meaning for Thane. He was no longer alone. It was as if his view on life was suddenly filled with light, hopeful. He was given a chance for a life once more. In ME3 his words seem to prove the opposite. He is again prepared to die, having no responsibilities, no burdens, he is content with the life he had.

Could this really be the same Thane who we romanced? Doesn't all his words in ME3 contradict the very core of his romance plot in ME2? I would say they do. And I would say they don't – for SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T ROMANCE HIM. For such people his words make sense. They're exactly what they know of Thane and expect of him to say. 
But this doesn't apply nor make sense for people WHO ROMANCED him.
 
People are complaining about the endings, about how things didn't turn out as they expected. We can say the same (and know how you all feel) but with one huge difference. WE HAD NO CHOICE in deciding our LI's fate. We could not decide his fate by ourselves. All of our reins were pulled out of our hands and passed to someone else who made a decision for us.
Thane dying is something I never argued about. I accepted the fact that some believe and think his death, a consequence of his last fight for greater good, would be something great if done correctly. Something that would do Thane justice. I never wanted that choice to be taken away from people who believed this is the ending he deserves.
 
But were we WHO ROMANCED him and believed in something else; in prolonging his life somehow, in giving him a chance to live again etc., even given a moment to be understood? Did others even try to see why we believe in something different then they do? Did they admit that we also deserve and are allowed to chose a different outcome other then his death? Some did but many probably didn’t.
 
I would ask those;  are you willing to trade your LI’s story, interactions and scenes with ours? Would you like to swap places?
Would you like to see be stripped of choice like us, stripped of choice that you have?

 
I never denied that his death shouldn’t be an option. All I hoped is that there was an OPTION. Not NO OPTION AT ALL.

We were treated as if ME2 romance meant almost nothing. A contrived illusion of love that ended feeling like I’ve only given Thane some “good” times before the end. No necessarily a bad thing but a terribly failed attempt in case you knew your Shepard actually had feelings, deep feelings for Thane. Everything seemed cold and stoic. No concern, no tears, nothing. Many things Shepard said seemed in the character -  for someone who DIDN’T ROMANCE Thane.But for those of us who DID ROMANCE HIM it is all but easy to grasp the reason behind her attitude, words and actions. Unless BioWare believed that we would fall for his looks and not the true beauty that made us love him: his personality no matter how flawed, which BioWare so beautifully portrayed in ME2. If this was supposed to be only a fling then I understand my Shepard’s attitude and actions. But in such case this Shepard is not mine.

Another thing that truly hit me in the heart was lack of people acknowledging the death of someone Shepard hold dear and close to her heart, maybe even considered as love of her life etc. From touching death scene with strangely emotionally disabled Shepard who romanced only Thane and as such had deep feelings for him, I walked right into a group of even more emotionally disabled people (the crew, the squad mates) who couldn’t muster even a bit of empathy or heart to make me feel as if someone, besides me cares and acknowledges the situation in which my Shepard ended. Instead of that we are suddenly accepted by the amazing “love boat” with flirtations, flirtations everywhere. I guess such things are common (sarcasm).

In connection to the “infamous” cure I would like to say the following; we didn’t wish nor ask to get a cure that would magically make it all better. There was only a simple wish that his life be somehow prolonged, a wish that we could have a choice to decide his fate.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around a simple question. How could an alternative optional outcome of prolonging Thane's life - no magical cure involved - destroy THEIR optional ending of Thane dying and thus their opinion that Thane is defined by his illness and impending death? I mean, I really don't get it.
One doesn't have to do anything with the other, because you are given a choice to choose between what you find more fitting for his character. I guess that's difficult to comprehend for some.


If anyone would like to trade with us, you’re more then welcomed but assuming by reaction Miranda fans had when they thought she couldn’t be saved…. Well I think we can all come to the same conclusion.

Edited by Aello89, 10 March 2012 - 10:40 PM.


#3
Lucky Thirteen

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I just wish, there were a few more conversations before his end, even a cute little date as some people have suggested. Hey how's Kolyat doing? Here, I brought you a little gift.

And some showing of affection from Shepard during the hospital scene, i don't want her breaking down in hysterics or anything, but a few tears and a kiss good bye and I love you would have been nice. And someone to ask how Shepard is doing afterwords. It was the weirdest thing, with all the times people ask how Shepard is doing, that is the one time no one bothers to ask her how she's dealing with Thane's death.

and some confirmation that the relationship was indeed a romance.

framed picture on the desk and a paramour achievement plz

#4
grossninapprops

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The lack of acknowledgement was pretty terrible. They can photoshop a stock image for Tali, but you can't get a pic of Thane, or even the achievement.

And of course how no one but Kai Leng acknowledged his death was also pretty rotten.

He felt pretty tacked on and overall it feels like a slap, after all the teasing/foreshadowing/hinting that the OP mentioned.

Edited by meekzu, 10 March 2012 - 10:59 PM.


#5
CastonFolarus

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Aello89 wrote...
I would ask those;  are you willing to trade your LI’s story, interactions and scenes with ours? Would you like to swap places?
Would you like to see be stripped of choice like us, stripped of choice that you have?


My Jacobmancing Sheps would make that trade in a heartbeat. Just sayin.

In my opinion, Thane dying without player choice is an ok thing on it's own. He was a dying man. We all knew that when we met him. That doesn't bother me. It's something that was a part of his character form the very start.

What does is that there was not nearly enough romantic discussion between them, and, as you mentioned, no opprotunities to mention the relationship again. Hell, why couldn't we talk to Kolyat later on the Citadel, where he could even ask just what his father meant to Shepard? Or why not just a flashback if you enter his old room on the Normandy? I'm not asking to put him on equal par with the Squadmate romances, as that's quite a pull on developer time. But a few more mentions here or there would be nice.

Also, along with ANY of the LIs, it should be his face Shepard flashes back to last at the end, after Joker and Anderson. Not Liara. If they provided an alternate for the VS roamnces, they should have done the same for everybody else.

Edited by CastonFolarus, 10 March 2012 - 11:08 PM.


#6
mnomaha

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I don't think putting Thane on "equal par" with the other romances would have been to terrible. What exactly were they doing in those three extra months? It sure wasn't upgrading the graphics.

#7
Aello89

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CastonFolarus wrote...

My Jacobmancing Sheps would make that trade in a heartbeat. Just sayin.


That I can agree. What was done to Jacob is beyond my comprehension and I feel terrible for all those who liked him as a character and especially those who romanced him.  I liked the guy, even though I never romanced him. 
He most surely didn't deserve to be treated that way. His fans didn't deserve to be treated that way.


 In my opinion, Thane dying without player choice is an ok thing on it's own. He was a dying man. We all knew that when we met him. That doesn't bother me. It's something that was a part of his character form the very start.


There's much more to his character then his death. It's one of the elements that constitute him as a character in the game but not as person as whole - layers which are only indicated in the game through conversation but not explicity shown. Many could say better that I that the apex of Thane's character - if romanced - is his inner conflict between impending death and will to live for something that he believed would never again have. It's all about his inner change from a man who was prepared to die and contend with it, to a man whose peace with death suddenly begins to crack. It was his fear of dying, his realization that he is no longer at peace with death that drow him to Shepard in that ME2 romance scene.  In ME3 all  this is simply put butchered. From perspective of romanced Thane of course.

I would agree with you IF there wasn't a bunch of hints throw at us all indicating that we just might get that option to prolong his life somehow. BioWare posted "Cure for Thane" banners on facebook, Hana gathered together a number of people, all fans of Thane's character, who contributed in creating an awesome banner that Hana then send directly to BioWare. Banner which they placed on the wall in their office... not to mention the LoTSB files which contained information that he's allegiable candidat for a transplant and so on...
Does this seem a right thing to do from BioWare's part? 


 I'm not asking to put him on equal par with the Squadmate romances, as that's quite a pull on developer time. But a few more mentions here or there would be nice.


Not really that difficult if you plan things out beforehead. Equal treatment could be easily achieved if certian other actions wouldn't have been taken. Like three new LI's and so on.
 

Also, along with ANY of the LIs, it should be his face Shepard flashes back to last at the end, after Joker and Anderson. Not Liara. If they provided an alternate for the VS roamnces, they should have done the same for everybody else.


With this I agree wholeheartedly.

Edited by Aello89, 10 March 2012 - 11:43 PM.


#8
Valentia X

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mnomaha wrote...

I don't think putting Thane on "equal par" with the other romances would have been to terrible. What exactly were they doing in those three extra months? It sure wasn't upgrading the graphics.

 

They were giving Liara, Kaidan and Ashely's dialogue a tongue-bath, from what I can tell. And adding random IGN reporters.

Edited by Valentia X, 10 March 2012 - 11:39 PM.


#9
RShara

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I agree that the treatment of Thane in this game was absolutely abysmal. They completely retconned, flip flopped, and stabbed his character into pieces.

Thane explicitly did not want to die in a hospital bed. Dies in a hospital bed. Best assassin in the galaxy, trained his entire life, pure dedication, close combat and weaponry expert. Gets stabbed. Dies in a hospital bed.
Ill or not, he should have been able to take down Kai Leng in the fight that they had. A more fitting end for his character would be a mutual kill--he takes out Kai Leng, but dies in the process. That would have been acceptable.
Additionally, if your FemShep romanced him in ME2, other than a single short scene, there is absolutely no acknowledgement of this. He doesn't even unlock the Paramour achievement. What?
Also, for us Thane fans, BioWare totally gave false hope. They had several features of our Cure for Thane banner. There was the CDN of a breakthrough in treatments for lung problems. And then he dies in a hospital bed. Yes, there is a lot of bitterness here!

Now I'm not asking for rainbows and bunny rabbits, but I could see lots of ways for a more satisfactory conclusion than what there was--ranging from the pathos to the joyous.

For my other thoughts, JECW and visii put it perfectly.

#10
Julia_xo

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Well said, you guys. While I don't expect anything to change, I do feel that all of this needs to be stated.

Yes, we chose to romance a dying character. We liked him despite that. He was a love interest and many of us naturally expected to be able to continue the relationship in ME3. Whether that involved being able to cure him, finding a way to prolong his life or watching him die. They were all distinct possibilities.

BioWare did give us cause to hope, particularly with the mention of the lung transplant in LotSB.We expected to have at least an option to save him, but that didn't happen in the end.

What has upset us all even more than having the choice taken from us is seeing Thane's romance reduced to nothing at all.

Aside from the impromptu make-out session at the hospital and Thane referring to Shepard as Siha a few times, the romance was largely ignored. You cannot even trigger the paramour achievement if you attempt to renew the relationship, as if the game is trying to tell you 'this doesn't count'. His storyline in ME3 seems to be catered strictly to the friendship path.

It's unfair to those of us who invested emotionally in the character and his romance. Where is our payoff? Why make him a love interest at all if this is what they had planned? It's like a punch to the gut. Like we're being punished for caring about the character they created.

It doesn't make sense for Thane to say the things he says, if romanced. Even his recycled LotSB letter contradicts his words in the hospital.

If they were determined to force his death, they should have allowed us a few good moments before the end. When the VS is injured you can visit them several times (at the same hospital Thane is at) and even get them gifts.

Thane just sits there in the hospital, and all we can do is repeat the same conversation options. The majority of which, focus on his impending death. Is Shepard ever given the chance to tell him she loves him or express any kind of emotion? Not at all.

Shepard shows more emotion over the VS getting injured on Mars or the random child who dies on Earth than she does for her dying lover? How is this acceptable?

It's even worse, when you consider that not one person will comment on Thane's death, after the fact. Shepard just lost the love of her life and the only thing people can talk about is the VS? Really?

Garrus stands at the memorial, where Thane's name has been added, but he doesn't even mention it? There's no one to acknowledge it.

It's like he never existed. It's such a waste and I can't understand why they would do this.

#11
Witty_Remark

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I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but yes- I agree with this notion. People who romanced Thane deserved better. Death or otherwise, they could have given us something more than an interrupt kiss.

In hindsight, it seems especially cruel that they gave the fanbase all that false hope.

I feel like, somewhere during the writing process, Bioware honestly forgot Thane was some people's love interest. Everything about his death is slated towards platonic friends.

#12
mnomaha

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I don't know how they could forget, unless they immediately took down the banner the following day. :(

#13
utaker1988

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All of the above and I do stress the word choice. Other LI's get a choice on their lives for the most part. If you don't warn Miranda, she dies. If you don't do the Grissom Academy then Jack turns into a phantom during the raid on Cerberus HQ. If you can't convince VS during the Udina Coup, they get shot. If you can't resolve the Geth/Quarian conflict and you side with the Geth, Tali commits suicide. See? Choices. Thane got not a one.

What is worse than the lack of choice after the above mentioned pieces of hope others mentioned, is that he is treated as not even being a romance. So, I couldn't save him but to slap me in the face even more by saying, "he's not a romance." Bull, tell that to my Shep. This point is driven home even further on his death bed, I get almost the same lines as a non romanced Thane. If this was set in stone as his fate, then why the hope? Why such a short but nearly uneventful death bed scene. He loved her, so said his letter and coming my Shep's viewpoint, so did she. No, I love you, even then? Nothing, no tears. That was wrong on so many levels. Not only that, after 6 months apart you'd think they had more to talk about but I guess that slipped someone's mind too. From what I've heard Kaidan asks about the status of your relationship after Thane dies. Really? Talk about callous. I wouldn't know personally, I shot him.

After getting over the shock of what happened in regards to his romance, I get Liara slammed in my face in my flashback. She may be someone's favorite but she certainly wasn't mine and like most people the last people we think about are the ones who meant the most to us. Thane should have been there, everyone's LI should have been there.

No achievement, once again, keep rubbing it in. It's like he never existed, he never mattered. Tell that to his fans, the very same people who buy your products.

I'm sorry is not going to cut it. Ones that are truly sorry, own their mistakes and try to correct them. If changing his death is not possible then there are other fixes that can be done. Adding in that extra dialogue that is out there is a start. Fixing the flashback at the end is good too. Making his romance count would really mean a lot as well. What I don't want to hear is, "we can't do that." Really? The DA:O fans found out with a toolset that dialogue not in the vanilla game could be added back, extra scenes could be made, and the story could be extended based on things that had already been out there. If amateurs can fix the bugs in a game then I'm sure professionals can do much better.

As for the "Cure for Thane" to encourage it and promote it, then give us THIS? This complete character assassination is not only cruel but sadistic.

#14
Sarah1281

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My Jacobmancing Sheps would make that trade in a heartbeat. Just sayin.

It really says a lot about the Jacob romance when the Thane romance in ME3 is the better outcome.

If you can't convince VS during the Udina Coup, they get shot.

Really? I don't remember even trying to really convince them. How can you fail?

#15
DarkPhoenixAsh

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When I started the romance with Thane in the second game, I knew that there was a possibility that he may not live much longer.  But like the posts above, I had hope that *maybe* we would find a way to “cure him” or at least prolong his life.  The LotSB file mentioned the lung transplant, a Hanar cure was brought up in dialogue, etc. all hinted at the possibility of him living.  Why not give us the choice?  How difficult would it have been to sit down with Thane at the hospital in Mass Effect 3 and discuss our future?  Shepard and Thane hadn’t seen or spoken to each other for 6 months.  It was the perfect opportunity to discuss his illness, which has now progressed to the point where it is interfering with his everyday life.  It would have been a difficult choice for Thane and Shepard to make together.  Should he take a risk and try the lung transplant?  Any breakthroughs with the Hanar cure over the last 6 months?  Maybe the medi-gel treatments would slow down the process?  Should we not even bother and just try to spend the remaining time together as best as we can?

Almost the entire conversation at the hospital didn’t sound like the Thane we parted ways with between Mass Effect 2 and 3.  During the romance scene in 2, he was ashamed because he was afraid of dying.  After all the hurt from his past and being alone for so long, he finally had someone he could rely on and show his heart to.  He found and allowed himself to love again.  He was reunited with his son that he missed.  He had reasons to live now and his life had worth again.  The only sign of “the old Thane” I seen during that conversation was after the paragon interrupt.  He was passionate again, not this cold and detached person he became in between the games.

Why couldn’t we take Thane out on a date?  Why did he have to stay confined to the hospital?  The Normandy has a medical area with top of the line equipment.  Dr. Chakwas is even running it and is familiar with his medical history.  He deserved that trip to the desert we talked about in Mass Effect 2.  Liara, Garrus, Ashley/Kaidan, Wrex, Mordin, Legion, and Tali were able to come back on the ship (some of them even have their own rooms).

I’ll even be bold and ask: why not let him come back to the Normandy and stay in Life-Support or even in Shepard’s room if he was having treatments/had surgery/decided to live his last days with Shepard?  Thane didn’t want to be in hospital and hooked up to machinery.  If Kolyat was hesitant about the decision and wanted to spend time with his father, why not let him come with us too?  It would have given Shepard the chance to know his son.  Thane and Kolyat wouldn’t even need to be involved in any combat.  I mean, it’s not like we don’t have people on the ship that aren’t fighting along with us (Allers is a great example).

During the fight scene, all I could ask myself is why didn’t I have a choice to intervene (or anyone else in my party for that matter)?  After he got stabbed with the sword, why did my Shepard immediately chase after Kai Leng and leave him behind like he was nothing to her?  When he finally caught up to me, why was my Shepard emotionless?  Maybe give me the option of leaving one of my squad members behind to help get him to the medical wing as soon as possible?  We’ve had the option to leave squad mates behind to help other people before (Garrus’ recruitment mission in Mass Effect 2).

From the romanced Thane point of view, the deathbed scene was horrible.  The dialogue was almost the same as the non-romanced Thane dialogue.  Shepard’s lover is dying and she couldn’t even tell him she loved him, hold his hand, or something.  From a non-romance point of view: the prayer with Kolyat and sharing his final moments with him is fine.  Romance point of view: it was lacking.

Crew members not checking up on Shepard or commenting about his death was the icing on the cake.  I won’t even get into how I felt after my crew members started hitting on my Shepard shortly after his death.

Thane’s romance was beautiful and full of so much potential... and now it’s gone.  I’ve never been this upset over a video game character before.  I wish I could say it was because I felt his story was complete and well done, but it’s not.

Edited by DarkPhoenixAsh, 11 March 2012 - 12:53 AM.


#16
Aeyl

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Sarah1281 wrote...

My Jacobmancing Sheps would make that trade in a heartbeat. Just sayin.

It really says a lot about the Jacob romance when the Thane romance in ME3 is the better outcome.

If you can't convince VS during the Udina Coup, they get shot.

Really? I don't remember even trying to really convince them. How can you fail?


If earlier on in the game (during the mars mission, I believe) you can't convince them you aren't working for Cerberus, things apparently get dicey.

Anyways, just commenting on this to say all previous posters have made any points I would have made myself. Thumbs up and all that.

#17
Aurien

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Beautiful post and wholeheartedly agree with everything presented in this post and the comments. Between this thread and the official Thane thread I think I've gotten the ranting out of my system. lol

This romance was such a huge disappointment in ME3. It would be wonderful if there could be a patch or small dlc of some sort introducing fixes or more options for Thane in this final trilogy to get some better closure.... but not holding my breath for it. :\\

Edit:  And another thing to add, once Thane dies he's completely forgotten about the rest of the game (except a small point later on with Kai Leng, which I was at least happy about getting).  Crew, friends, other characters... no one ever brings him up.

Even the game forgets about him... in the codex under known associates where ALL the ME2 squadmates are.... Thane isn't.  Yup, there is no codex entry at all for him.  ><  It's like he completely disappears... and not in the good, stealthy way he's good at.


Edit 2:  Ok, I was encouraged in PMs to post my long, ranty, thought filled post from the official thread into here also , so will quote it over.  hehe  Thanks to all who liked my jumbly, thought process bits of rant.  <3

Aurien wrote...

****FULL OF SPOILERS AHEAD****


Yeah I just finished playing yesterday, at least until the part after Thane dies at the hospital... and I'm sorry but this kinda has made me not all that gung ho about finishing this game any longer.

In my play through I did a bit of a speed play through of one, where I ended up romancing Kaiden.  Then, he yells at me and calls me all sorts of traitor and hypocrite in ME2, so I'm thinking the romance is pretty much dead, right?  If it wasn't in his mind my Shepard sure as hell broke it off with him and made it clear at the beginning of ME3 that she did (took the renegade option in Mars.  :P )  So, back to ME2.  After Horizon my Shep meets this wonderfully calm and intriguing (cute as hell too!  <3) drell, by the name of Thane after going to find out the
situation about Nassana Dantius.  From the first flex of muscle and showmanship of sliding down silently to get his kill, to every prayer word and insight to character that she was able to talk with him about, my Shep fell head over heals for him.  They weren't separated for long if she could help it, often together during many missions or sitting with each other talking quietly in Life Support, he tells her that he feels alive again because of her...  and later she comforts him and gives him a moment to be truly alive again before delving into the suicide mission...

Such a romantically flourishing romance with such a wonderfully done and breathtaking character.  <3

Then comes ME3.  My Shep gets the hurriedly worded letter from Thane, obviously full of worry as he and her have had no contact since her incarceration... and she was on Earth before the reaper attack the last he knew...  My Shep's heart skips a beat and makes time for an immediate docking at the Citadel to see him again.  Once there, he expresses his worry and relief, and even says he will watch over Kaiden for her while she can not be there (he knows she was with Kaiden, he asked and she told him, but that they grew apart as well and are not together...). 
She appreciates this, Thane has always been the better man after all, and gives him a small, but passionate kiss the first chance she can get, even if it happens to be during when he's trying to tell her of his illness.  *blush*

Finally they sit down and he tells her of his illness and what has been happening... a short conversation and somewhat bittersweet... but it seems a bit... medical to me as well.  Like someone talking to their friend or doctor than their lover.  At least she can interrupt him again and get a few stolen moments with him... embarrassing themselves like 2 hormonally charged teenagers in the middle of the hospital *blush* but still some time!  The whispered "I missed you Shepard" had her melting...

Skip ahead to Cerberus usurping C sec and the Citadel... he sounds out of breath but doesn't hesitate or stop to come running to her side to help her, despite his illness.  He finally gets there and buys her the needed time, saving the councillor from assassination, but getting harmed in the process while the assassin gets away.

Shep sees he is hurt... asks him how bad it is out of worry... and then just...leaves him there without a second
glance?  A little out of character for my Shep but I mentally chalk it up and fill in my own dialogue about how Thane would want her to get out of there and go find him, his honor not letting him let her stay with him.  If she doesn't go, he gets away to kill the other councillors and his save is in vain.  So ok, I can overlook that one... still think my
Shep would have kissed him silly and at least told him she would be back for him before she left him there...

Jump to the hospital scene.  I can't even comment on this one with a romantic dialogue like the other scenes.  Even as emotionally charged as this scene was, and utterly beautiful it was for him to meet his end like this... it wasn't as romantically charged as it should have been.  My Shep felt like a bystander and friend more than a lover.  The prayer was beautiful, and just like him to pray for her soul on his own deathbed... but other than
"where the lover never leaves" in the prayer, the comment he says about him "leaving at a time like this" when I get there and my Shep saying "meet you across the sea" when he dies... not one single romantic word to each other at all.  No "I love you" from either of them... nothing.  My Shep would have been horribly emotional at this point, and would have at least told him how she felt about him so he could sleep with that knowledge.  Major Grrrrr moment for me there.

Jump to back on the ship... Shep is depressed (or at least I am, she doesn't seem to be emotionally changed one way or the other >:(  ) and talks to her crew and friends.  Not one single word about Thane.  Everyone congratulated me for saving the Salarian and says that they're happy Kaiden is better and back.... but not one word of Thane giving his life after HE saved the salarian,  Nor one word about how they feel about Thane's death
(even from the ones that KNEW him in ME2) or any reference to the death what so ever (although they all comment about Mordin), not even from Shepard herself.  The only indication you have about his death is his
name on the damn wall.  And his letter.  That letter was beautiful at least.  I hadn't seen it yet in LotSB so it was a beautiful and heart-wrenching surprise to me. But it still should have been something that could have been expressed between Shep and Thane and not just in letter form.  <_<

So for some closure My Shep held her own little funeral in Life Support, the place where they had their many talks and found their feelings for each other.  She said a few prayers for him to Arashu and Kalahira and promised again to meet him across the sea.  Something that could have been expressed in the game itself I think at least, was kinda disappointing I had to do it myself for my character.  ><

Then jump to talking with Kaiden not very long after Thane's death.. where Kaiden decides to tell her he understands why she "cheated" (Cheated???  Shep dropped your ass buddy the moment you yelled at her and stopped trusting her.  You two were effectively broken up to any who decided to ask her, INCLUDING you the other 3 times you asked her yourself.) and that he wanted to be with her again.  Um really?  Thane died less than a few hours ago...jerk.

Needless to say she turned him down.  Citing confusing times rather than her emotional upheaval (which that kinda burned me about too ><).  *sigh*

But yeah, my whole diatribe is basically this:  Definitely not happy with how his romance was carried over and expressed in ME3.  I could live with the inevitability of his death and not having a cure.  If that was the only option available I can make myself live with it.  I can NOT live with how... clinical it all felt to me.  Like they completely ignored the emotional investment Thane and Shepard had to each other in ME2 (romanced anyway) and put it all in a back seat friendship for ME3.  And then have all the characters utterly disprespect Thane by not acknowledging him in any way, shape, or form after his death?  And even all line up to hit on me in my cabin later
that day (Vega, Allers and Traynor, even Kaiden to a point)?  Come on now.  ><

Also, anyone noticed out of all the characters you meet, ME1 and 2 included... under the "known associates" codex slot...  that everyone else gets a codex entry... but not Thane?  He shows up NOWHERE in the codex.  Zip.

Way to disrespect a loved character (and most advertised character) for ME2 in ME3 Bioware.  >< 

(Sorry about the long, rantish post.)


Edited by Aurien, 11 March 2012 - 02:12 AM.


#18
Durgon Ironfist

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He was terminally ill and still sought redemption. The man charged the most dangerous man in the galaxy and held his own. He was stabbed in the chest and still got up to return fire and as he was on his death bed he asked his gods to help his best friend/love. How in the sodding hell could they have done this any better?! You people are either dumb or insane! Perhaps both!

#19
Valentia X

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Durgon Ironfist wrote...

He was terminally ill and still sought redemption. The man charged the most dangerous man in the galaxy and held his own. He was stabbed in the chest and still got up to return fire and as he was on his death bed he asked his gods to help his best friend/love. How in the sodding hell could they have done this any better?! You people are either dumb or insane! Perhaps both!



Mm.... maybe you should chill. 


And how in the 'sodding hell' could it have been better?


If every single person stopped acting like he didn't exist. The only person who acknowleges Thane is the sob who sent him to his death. 

#20
Aurien

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Durgon Ironfist wrote...

He was terminally ill and still sought redemption. The man charged the most dangerous man in the galaxy and held his own. He was stabbed in the chest and still got up to return fire and as he was on his death bed he asked his gods to help his best friend/love. How in the sodding hell could they have done this any better?! You people are either dumb or insane! Perhaps both!


How could it have been better??

Levvi wrote...

Did you guys hear the extended version of
his death scene?! It's much better than what we were given!. I'm beyond
angry that it was cut from the game.

Here you go.

If you're interested :)



^^^^  Leaving THAT in would have been a big start!  As is they cut so much of that out it's all clinical and generic now between either friendship or romance.  Nothing that is really all that romance specific anymore.  Not like that emotionally charged extended cut that is not even in the final.  *sigh*

#21
Julia_xo

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DarkPhoenixAsh wrote...
When I started the romance with Thane in the second game, I knew that there was a possibility that he may not live much longer.  But like the posts above, I had hope that *maybe* we would find a way to “cure him” or at least prolong his life.  The LotSB file mentioned the lung transplant, a Hanar cure was brought up in dialogue, etc. all hinted at the possibility of him living.  Why not give us the choice?  How difficult would it have been to sit down with Thane at the hospital in Mass Effect 3 and discuss our future?  Shepard and Thane hadn’t seen or spoken to each other for 6 months.  It was the perfect opportunity to discuss his illness, which has now progressed to the point where it is interfering with his everyday life.  It would have been a difficult choice for Thane and Shepard to make together.  Should he take a risk and try the lung transplant?  Any breakthroughs with the Hanar cure over the last 6 months?  Maybe the medi-gel treatments would slow down the process?  Should we not even bother and just try to spend the remaining time together as best as we can?


See, this is exactly how I feel. Your suggestion would have been a great way to integrate the lung transplant option into the story, instead of acting like the option never existed.

The only problem is that Thane says his doctor's prognosis is that he had 3 months to live 9 months ago. Shepard was only incarcerated for 6 months so I'm assuming she was still with Thane when he got that prognosis. Which is odd to me consisdering in Lotsb Shepard tells Liara Thane's Kepral's isn't bad yet. If he only had three months to live back then, I'd call that bad. :/ Who was this doctor, anyway? Dr. Chakwas? His medical report never suggests that he only has 3 months to live.

I get the impression BioWare fasttracked his illness and gave us no options just to get him out of the way since he's no longer a sqaudmate. Every ME2 character gives Shepard an excuse about why they can't join up again. Talk about contrived.

DarkPhoenixAsh wrote...
Almost the entire conversation at the hospital didn’t sound like the Thane we parted ways with between Mass Effect 2 and 3.  During the romance scene in 2, he was ashamed because he was afraid of dying.  After all the hurt from his past and being alone for so long, he finally had someone he could rely on and show his heart to.  He found and allowed himself to love again.  He was reunited with his son that he missed.  He had reasons to live now and his life had worth again.  The only sign of “the old Thane” I seen during that conversation was after the paragon interrupt.  He was passionate again, not this cold and detached person he became in between the games..


I agree completely. When he says "I think of us often, Siha, but we always knew it would come to an end. Live well in the time you have. Perhaps we will see each other again" my heart was broken. It was like he was already saying goodbye and just a dismissal of the relationship as a whole. BioWare did not want to put in the effort into more conversations or a date so they just had him give Shep the brush off. :crying: It's a complete change from the Thane we romanced in ME2 who wanted to make the most of the time he had left, not waste away in a hospital during his final days.This is character assassination at it's finest. :/

Sarah1281 wrote...
My Jacobmancing Sheps would make that trade in a heartbeat. Just sayin. It really says a lot about the Jacob
romance when the Thane romance in ME3 is the better outcome.
 


The way Thane is treated really isn't that different from how they treated Jacob. Thane and Jacob are the only love inerests you can't get the romance achievement with. If you are just a friend to them, their stories make sense.

It's the romance aspect of their stories that BioWare didn't bother considering. Which isn't fair at all to players
who pursued the romance of either character.

Thane doesn't even get a codex entry, apparently. Does Jacob?

Durgon Ironfist wrote...
He was terminally ill and still sought redemption. The man charged the most dangerous man in the galaxy
and held his own. He was stabbed in the chest and still got up to return fire and as he was on his death bed he asked his gods to help his best friend/love. How in the sodding hell could they have done this any better?! You people are either dumb or insane! Perhaps both!


There's no need to personally insult anyone. If you bothered to read any of our posts you'd realize most us acknowledge the friendship path was done well. It's the romance being barely acknowledged that has made people upset.

Edited by Julia_xo, 11 March 2012 - 03:41 AM.


#22
Sarah1281

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The only problem is that Thane says his doctor's prognosis is that he had 3 months to live 9 months ago.

Perhaps he kept this a secret from Shepard.

The way Thane is treated really isn't that different from how they treated Jacob. Thane and Jacob are the only love inerests you can't get the romance achievement with. If you are just a friend to them, their stories make sense.

In a way, yes. There's not much difference between a friend and a love interest. I prefer Thane's treatment, though, because he doesn't quickly dump you, not feel the need to mention it, and then act like you're being out of line by calling him on it. He also doesn't knock somebody up and gush about how happy he is to be a father to you. Thane dies, yes, but he still loves you and doesn't throw you over at the first available opportunity.

#23
Lilunebrium

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Durgon Ironfist wrote...

He was terminally ill and still sought redemption. The man charged the most dangerous man in the galaxy and held his own. He was stabbed in the chest and still got up to return fire and as he was on his death bed he asked his gods to help his best friend/love. How in the sodding hell could they have done this any better?! You people are either dumb or insane! Perhaps both!


Go read the actual thread. Majority isn't complaining about his death, we have issues with how his supposed 'romance' is treated. 

Witty_Remark wrote...
I feel like, somewhere during the writing process, Bioware honestly forgot Thane was some people's love interest. Everything about his death is slated towards platonic friends.


They did. They actually did.
I'm not even kidding.

Posting from the Thane thread;

JECW wrote...
Patrick Weekes' livejournal said:

Yeah, I wasn't in charge of Thane, but I see Thane's death situation as one of those things that's the drawback of a large writing team. Lots of followers talk about the Citadel Event in terms of what happens with the VS, but because Thane was optional, it didn't click with any of us that the player could also have just lost a friend or loved one THERE as well. That was a dropped ball on our end.

 

Edit: Removed parts of the post that were way too coloured by my first impression.

Edited by Lilunebrium, 19 March 2012 - 03:08 PM.


#24
Sarah1281

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The whole 'he's an optional character since he can die in ME3,

I thought it was that he was optional because in ME2 there are certain characters that the game forces you to get and then you can either advance the plot or go after more party members like Thane first.

#25
Guest_Squeegee83_*

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I'm not great with words but I do know how to sum up my feelings...

There should be a Thane dlc and have a part in it where he drops to his knees and then apologize for the writer who wrote his role in this game. lol.

But I do agree with nearly what everyone is saying. There should have been an option.

Edited by Squeegee83, 11 March 2012 - 04:03 AM.