There are so many motifs in the lore for our journey to a new home it will be fun making those posts

So, is our new home in a world divided by the Veil, or made whole...?  

I wasn't here from the beginning, because I usually play humans and figured I'd play a human again in DAI, which I did for my first, unfinished playthrough. I liked how Solas looked and knew he'd be one of my favourite characters as the release date for DAI approached. I was disappointed that he was not going to be someone my human rogue could romance.

But then I blew up my computer (not literally) and it took a while for me to save up enough to buy the parts and build myself a new one. By the time that was done I had totally lost interest in finishing the human rogue's playthrough so I created my elf. And that way I was able to romance one of the best characters BioWare has ever written, and got to meet so many of you folks here in the Blanketfort.

Thanks to all of you for being so reasonable and good-natured. I avoid most other threads because the vitriol contained in many of them is tedious and not what I want to spend my time reading. On the other hand, the Blanketfort has always been a bastion of levelheadedness and thoughtful discussion, not to mention all of the Solas and Lavellan fan art curated by CapricornSun and NightSymphony. You're all awesome.

I've made an account on realdragonagefans - same name, same avatar for now (although I do have a better screen cap of my Lavellan, I have yet to crop it down to size).

In regards to the Maker being an 'absentee god,' I've always taken it to mean he is pretty much like the Judeo-Christian god in the real world. He doesn't walk among us enacting miracles. Neither does the Maker. Both gods send minions to do that work for them as needed - the Judeo-Christian god sent Jesus; the Maker sent Andraste. 

That doesn't stop real-world Christians from praying to the Judeo-Christian god in the hopes that he will intervene on their behalf. And likewise for Thedosians praying to the Maker.

This amuses me to no end. 

 

Personally, I believe that the Inquisitor needs to be the one to deal with Solas, but honestly the whole gang needs to be there really. 

For my Inquisitor, I think she'd rather not have the whole gang there, to be honest! Most of them are probably firmly in the "Solas must die" camp but my Inquisitor wants to try to redeem him first. She would be worried that someone (like Sera) might fly off the handle with the result that everyone becomes Solas' newest garden decor.

If he turns my Inquisitor to stone or otherwise kills her, fine - then everyone else can hunt him down to the ends of the earth.

To be honest, I feel like that story needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It feels to me a lot like the story of the judgment of Solomon from the bible, wherein two women are fighting over a baby. King Solomon suggests the solution is to cut the baby in half. The true mother says to give the baby to the other woman, while the false mother says sure, cut it in half.

Similarly, I'm not convinced that Fen'Harel is actually telling the young noble to kill the other princess. Maybe he is saying "Dude, there are plenty of fish in the sea. Do you REALLY need this woman THAT much? Get on with your life - find someone else. You'll be much happier for it."

(Maybe Fen'Harel is also saying "Stop pestering us Evanuris for inconsequential things like helping you find some woman you have the hots for. We have rather more important things to do.")

I didn't read anything DA4-related into it, except that yeah, he could be studying wolves to start storyboarding DA4, maybe.

That being said, I was highly amused by the large black wolf with magical fire powers glaring at the small but proud white wolf, since my non-mage Lavellan's name means 'white wolf' and I can imagine just such a confrontation between her and Solas if/when she gets the chance to try to talk some sense into him. "Posture all you like: you'll listen to me or you'll kill me. What difference does it make if I die now, since you've already basically told me you're killing me if you succeed in your plans."

 

BioWare ‏@bioware

From the archives: creating the giants of Thedas.

 

 

I'm amused that Casper clearly drew on the theory that ancient Greek misinterpretations of prehistoric elephant fossils inspired the legends of Cyclops.

Today I led a two-hour nature walk through a beach ridge/sand dunes/wetlands complex in northern Alberta. We just managed to dodge rain before and after the hike.

People who have lived here longer than me joke about the "June Monsoon," which now seems to be extending into July. I don't mind because May was so dry I was really worried that we'd have a ton of forest fires this summer.  Also, it has brought the lake levels up a lot!

I also like Solas, and hope that his story arc has a satisfactory end.

I'm glad that there is no mention of a Solavellan love child being born between the final battle with Corypheus and the beginning of Trespasser, because then Solas might be bound to a rock with his child's intestines for eternity, while Lavellan holds a bowl to catch a serpent's venom so it doesn't fall into Solas' eyes, except when she has to empty out the bowl.  That would really suck for Lavellan.

Remind me... what was the problem with using lightning spells as a Rift mage?

I don't know of any problem game-mechanics-wise. However, I do remember some people in this thread suggesting that in terms of roleplaying, for them, it didn't make much sense for the same mage to use both, since storm magic is the opposing force to spirit magic in DAI, and they felt that rift magic was an extension of spirit magic, or somesuch.

We don't actually know this?  I mean, it's a theory and there are statements made in game by other characters that support the theory that Solas was a spirit who took on physical form but despite his name, if this theory is correct, we don't actually know what type of spirit he might have been.  And I don't even necessarily disagree with the theory myself it's just there's been no real confirmation one way or the other.

Sure, it hasn't been verbally stated - I agree. I find it interesting that Solas paints the Dread Wolf as a wolf / pride demon hybrid, though.

I don't think this would work either though. Solas does state that he wants to restore the Elves but I think it's also restoring Spirits and natural world state as well. Spirits are reviled, feared. The Fade is something most people cringe at. To leave those two things as they are (Things that he loves) while only allowing Elves/perhaps humans unhindered access to it would rub him the wrong way something fierce. He might ignore that twisting anger for a little while but witnessing as Spirits continue to corrupt and forced to be slaves/bound, he would begin Veil Teardown 2.0 

I have given a lot of thought to this as well. We know that there are some places in the world where the Veil is thin. Usually that's because there's been a lot of death there so it isn't a great place for spirits to come through, as they will likely be corrupted to demons due to lingering negative emotions.

We also know that, in places, there are Elvhen devices that can be used to measure the Veil and also to strengthen it. Reverse engineer those, and you may be able to figure out how to weaken the Veil. It does seem possible to describe magic using mathematical equations because we find some of those left by the Qunari in the Vir Dirthara. It is logical to assume that if you can mathematically describe how the artifacts strengthen the Veil, you should be able to use algebra to figure out how to reverse that effect and possibly create a device that can weaken the Veil - without the side effect of negative emotions lingering there. Solas' artifacts had localized area effects. I think it would be possible to set up Veil weakening artifacts and create little enclaves where there is no Veil and spirits can come through unharmed. These could be communities where the new Elvhen live. They could also be centers of learning for people who want to learn more about spirits. Do I think this will actually happen in DA4 or other future DA games?  No, but it's a nice headcanon for me.  

I like the idea, though it seems like Solas would have been more optimistic about the whole thing in Trespasser if he believed it were possible.

 

I can't believe that any 'restoration' would be confined to just the elves, though. Firstly, I do think Solas would try to restore all races to their true potential if he could. Second of all, can you imagine how the rest of the world would respond if all elves suddenly got their magic back? It wouldn't just be time for a new Exalted March ... it would be elves vs the Chantry, the Imperium, the Qun, everyone. Not to mention that there would probably be a lot of people of other races who would want in on the new magic-wielding status.

 

I don't know how it'll happen, but I am anticipating that Sandal's prophecy comes true. As in, I think everyone will get magic back. Even dwarves. Maybe it won't be permanent ... just long enough to upend civilization on Thedas. So much of political power is organised around who has magic and who doesn't. What would happen to cultures, religious hierarchies, empires, if everyone became a mage? (A question for DA5 maybe?)

My take on Solas' lack of optimism is that he *doesn't* think this is possible because he hasn't considered it. He is part pride demon, after all, and if you 'know' that you are 'right', your pride can blind you to other ways of doing things.

I honestly am not certain that humans existed prior to the Veil. I'm not sure that Qunari did, either. There just doesn't seem to be enough lore to say 'yes they were here before the Veil' or 'no, they weren't'. I wrote about this in this thread several months ago. I am pretty sure dwarves existed before the Veil, though. So 'restoring' everyone may actually only restore elves and dwarves, and may seriously harm humans and Qunari. 

I absolutely agree that humans would not be pleased by elves becoming magical superbeings and that it will bring trouble. I'm totally okay with humans and Qunari becoming like the Elvhen if it's possible for them, but I'm not sure that it is.

I'd rather not have a "synthesis"ending, but I wonder how possible it would be for people/ Elves to merge with Spirits?

 

We see the harmonious relationship between spirits and the Avaar, infact Spirits inhabit mage's bodies until they're ready. And we know spirit possession results in a form of immortality.

 

This could very well be the "3rd" option.

I think the Elves already ARE merged with spirits; they just don't know it. I think that is all tied into what Solas knows when he talks of the modern elves being cut off from the Fade, not knowing who they truly are, etc. He asks every Inquisitor about their spirit on the balcony scene, but as with many of his lines, it may be a bit ambiguous. Like, maybe he means a metaphorical spirit for humans, Qunari, and dwarves, but a literal one for elves. I do freely admit that my main evidence for this is from his line to a romanced Lavellan in the sad break-up option, though, when he says she has a marvellous spirit. I could be completely wrong.

The happiest ending I can imagine for Solas is if we can convince him to change his plans, which are, ultimately, not to destroy the world, but to restore the elves to themselves. If we can find a way for elves to regain their connection to the Fade without tearing the entire Veil down, there's your happy ending. Solas gets what he wants, and the world goes on much as it has except that now there may be some very powerful elves running around (and some of them will have huge chips on their shoulders from the way their people have been treated over the centuries).

I think I've mentioned earlier in this thread that there are some codex entries that suggest the Veil is not a physical barrier but a matter of perception. If there was a way for individuals to break down the Veil in their own minds then Solas might like the freedom of choice that would lead to: elves like Sera could choose not to become 'true elves' if they find the idea repugnant. Those who want to be 'true elves' can work towards it. Solas would still have plenty to do guiding elves through the process of becoming 'true elves'. He could take on the role of teacher that he seems to favour, if some of Cole's remarks are anything to go by.

Aside from having to fend off very angry and powerful new 'true elves,' the Andrastians can keep their division of the 'real' from the 'spiritual' intact if the Veil remains intact in their own minds. The Qunari can happily continue believing that mages are weapons that need to be controlled.

Even if somehow my speculations are spot on (highly doubtful!) I'm not sure that the format of a video game could handle this, though, so I doubt very much that this will happen. Setting aside how such a resolution might work for Inquisitors or new protagonists of every race (why would a human or a Qunari want to help Solas make a race of superbeings with crazy magical powers?  How would a dwarf even approach such a plot?), I think quite a few fans would be disappointed. After all the buildup of Sandal's prophecy and some of OGB Kieran's comments about ushering in a new age, it would be anti-climactic if the resolution to Solas' plot arc turns out not to change much of anything in Thedas!

So this is one of Cole's lines that I originally thought might be referring to dwarves, but now I am pretty sure I was mistaken, and I wonder if it refers to the spirits who took physical form to become elves:

"They made bodies from the earth. And the earth was afraid. It fought back. But they made it forget."

Could that be what led eventually to the Evanuris and the Titans fighting? "[The earth] fought back" might as well be "the Titans fought back."

No one excited about Patrick Weekes thinking Solas is like Overwatch's Zenyatta ?

 

Zenyatta is a kind monk that wants to heal people... Does that sound anything like the guy who wants to blow up the fade ?

Solas probably does see taking down the Veil as a way to heal people, since he believes he harmed them by putting the Veil up. But do remember he also says "the healer has the bloodiest hands" and "accept the blood to make things better." So... I'm not sure how excited I ought to be, to be honest.

On the flip side, there's Cole's line in Trespasser "Solas doesn't want to hurt anybody! He's not that kind of wolf!" 

And then I remember that Solas can apparently erase Cole's memory, and I wonder how else he might be able manipulate Cole's thoughts.  

Indeed. One thing that annoys me about Western thinkers is they assume the Judeo/Christian standard of a god is the standard that all people all over the world hold to all their gods, and if their deity is not an all-seeing, all-knowing, world-creating entity, then it's not really a god and doesn't count for worship, which is not actually the case for many non-Jewish/Christian/Muslim deities.

 

Dictionary defines a god as:

 

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

   synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More

    

    

    

    

    
2. 2.

   (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

 

 

By the former Judeo/Christian "all seeing, all knowing, world-creating" standard, the Creators aren't gods. By the latter standard, they could very well qualify. 

 

Besides, learning that Andraste wasn't the woman seen in the rift behind the Herald when you first fell out of the Fade, and learning that you got your mark from a ritual gone awry rather than from the Maker Himself, didn't stop Andrastians from choosing to continue to believe you're the Herald of Andraste and the Mark a gift from the Maker (even though it is ancient elven magic). I don't understand why everyone acts like learning that the Creators weren't world-creating entities means all Dalish should automatically stop believing in them, when the Andrastians did not.

Weirdly (since I was raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition; I guess I am sort of agnostic these days, though) my Inquisitor's decision not to believe in gods was informed more by the second definition there. Over the course of the game she came to realize that gods are relative: anyone that is perceived or actually has power over anyone else could be perceived as a god to those they have power over. While she did see the hope kindled in the whole "The Dawn Will Come" scene in the Frostbacks and was grateful for that, she was also deeply disturbed by all the people bowing to her. Solas only made it worse when he told her it's been an age since any elf was raised so high. She does not feel that she is worthy of worship or adulation and does not wish to be perceived as god-like herself, but the Anchor brought her close to being seen that way. While she was recorded in the Keep as a merciful and diplomatic Inquisitor, I didn't have her acting that way because she thought it was a golden ticket to a lovely afterlife. Rather, she did it because it is the decent thing to do. She truly believed that she needed to do right by the people who had placed their trust in her.

Over the course of the game, she began to question how entities become deities. And the natural outcome of that line of thought for her was to question how the Creators came to be worshipped as gods. Solas' 'true' stories about the Creators in the Temple of Mythal made her start wondering what kind of entities they actually were. She had a hard time reconciling what she had been taught about them with what Solas was saying about them. At that time, she had little reason to disbelieve Solas or think that maybe he was telling her a version of events that would paint him (as Fen'Harel) in a better light. So, by the end of the main game, she was questioning whether the Creators were actually worthy of her worship.

Cue Solas' revelations in Trespasser. Whether true or false, they played on her worst fears. If the Evanuris were just a bunch of people who did what they could for their followers, and became revered for it, then corrupted by their increasing power, could that possibly have happened to her, as well? Could it still happen to her? The thought chills her. I guess she has a really bad case of cold feet!

^ My Lavellan had given up on gods by the battle with Corypheus. She certainly doesn't think of Solas as a god! A very powerful mage, yes. But not a god. 

It could as well be the Maker. Question is "which Maker" or "has the Chantry got anything right" (which, given the suggestions that the whole Sun thing may have connection to some sort of existing power, could mean many things). The thing about religion and gods is that many people, including those technically believing in same god, ultimately can have very different ideas of what that god could be. For example Giselle's Maker may be completely different to that of some other high cleric - or Dorian's Maker.

I kind of hope that in DA4 there will be a weird splinter sect of Andrastians who decide that Solas is the Maker, if word gets out that he's the one who put up the Veil. I imagine Solas might find that awkward, but would use them cheerfully.

Thing is Inquisition had a different focus - basic facts have already been established. Now it's time to get into nuances. And with so much focus on ancient elves and ancient past I don't really feel the elves were gimped - heck, I've seen quite a few peeps annoyed with how much focus there is on the elves or arguments that it makes more sense to play with elf Quizzy over everyone else, given all the discoveries we make. And it's only going to get more 'elfy' from now on - and more dwarfy too, possibly, given all the hints we get from Inquisition and Descent as well. Qunari won't be pushed into background as well it seems, if Trespasser is anything to go by and we're probably going to get to know more about origins of humanity and humans that are obviously not so tied to the Chantry as Southerns are, considering we're likely going to Tevinter. So on one hand the story will involve more factions, but at the very same time it's obvious that it goes beyond them. After all Solas's plans threaten not just humans, elves or dwarves, but all people - and if Sandal's prophecy is anything to go by... well... everyone will be back to how they were before, after some sort of significant event.

This is what I hope for, since for DA4 they will:

• not be switching game engines again
• have quite a few assets pre-made from DAI
• have racial meshes pre-made from DAI
• have certain major NPCs' meshes and skins pre-made from DAI

I recognize that they will still have to make new environments, unique meshes for new companions, and new monster varieties, among other things. I will hope that they can come up with a few more hairstyles for everyone who wishes to have more options than DAI offered. But, overall, I think that the bare bones of DA4 construction are in place. And I hope that means they can afford to spend a little more time on nuances, stories, sidequests, etc. Patrick Weekes must be working on some DA4 stuff at the moment, and that bodes well, considering they may not even have got onto level designing or anything yet since MEA and the new IP seem to be higher priority at the moment.

Doesn't he say that whether you drink from the Well or not, though?

He does, yeah. But that doesn't negate the possibility that if your Inquisitor drank from the Well, he used Mythal's power to influence the Well to give you the password to make it easier for you to get to him. 

Abelas says to the well-drinker "You are bound as we are bound."  They might have gone into service willingly, but it was at a cost of their free will, which is what Solas tends to take issue with. Also, Solas is almost always portrayed as a wolf in the statuary and mosaics we see of him until the Vir Dirthara. It may be that he used that form while serving Mythal, thus, Abelas would never have seen his face as an elf (or they totally did recognize each other, and Solas managed to do some secret elfy handsignals that we did not see).

My take on the Solas and Abelas exchange is that they totally could recognize each other and no hand signals were necessary because I kind of think that Elvhen can actually see the spirits inside each other. Have any of you ever played Changeling: The Dreaming (the original version?) I imagine it's a little like the Kenning skill that allows Changelings to see faerie and Dreaming stuff in the real world. I like to think that Solas really could see Lavellan's spirit when he tells her she has a rare and marvellous spirit in the sad break up option. But that's just what I like to think. I am probably completely wrong.

I was a huge fan of Changeling: the Dreaming so... I am biased towards the idea that Elvhen have dual natures similar to Changelings in the White Wolf game. 

*snip*

 

Though, seriously, considering that the Well of Sorrows gives you the password to call off the spirit sentinels in Fen'Harel's sancutary, at least one of the priests who imparted their knowledge into that well knew who Solas was. Wouldn't surprise me if Abelas did, too. Since Mythal and Solas were so close, wouldn't surprise me a bit if she was aiding and abetting his rebellion discreetly (likely part of why she died), and some of her most loyal, like Abelas, may have occasionally rendered aid/turned a blind eye to Fen'Harel's doings. 

 

*snip*

With that whole knowing the password thing, I am suspicious... Considering that Solas says (emphasis is mine) "The mark will eventually kill you. Drawing you here gave me the chance to save you… at least for now" just before the end of Trespasser, and considering that he has some part of Mythal, I kind of wonder if he has some influence over the Well of Sorrows and used it to make your passage to him easier by giving you the password so you don't have to fight his spirit guardians.

^ I like Solas' storm grey eyes, but I notice that a lot of artists seem to like giving him paler blue eyes.

I do wonder if he was purposefully given storm grey eyes as an allusion to pride demons, who seem to favour lightning as their element.

He says it if you are befriended, not romanced.

 

Choice: I agree with your plan.

Lavellan: Let me help you, Solas.

Solas: You cannot.

Lavellan: You want to restore the elven people. I would give my life for that.

Solas: Would you give the life of every friend you have ever known? There is no glory here, only a price I alone will pay.

 

Source: Solas Trespasser Dialogue Flowchart

 

And yeah, there will still be a world, as in a space where something is, when he is done. But it apparently won't contain the current people pf Thedas, thus it is still the end of the world for them.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention! I did try checking some other videos of Trespasser playthroughs out but hadn't seen that version, which I assume only happens if you play an elf who befriended Solas?

(For some reason, it seems hard to find Trespasser playthrough videos of Lavellans who only befriended Solas!  ;D )

^ I'll be at Edmonton Expo and will let you know. I expect it will all be Mass Effect Andromeda hype, though.

*snip* ...  It's also possible he's still doing this to some extent as I recall a codex entry or possibly random conversation where the servants say Solas doesn't seem to eat much.  Don't take my word on that part though, I've been searching for that reference and I haven't been able to find it.  So I may be mistaken about that part.

It's not actually in the game but you are not going mad - it is in The World of Thedas Volume 2, at the bottom right of page 231.

"The kitchen staff at Skyhold recall [Solas] eating little, though he had very particular requirements regarding his tea."