Yes, I agree that if the Dalish should lose faith in their gods that is no reason why they should automatically convert to the Chantry.   However, until such time as they are released, nothing has really changed.   The ancient trickster Fen'Harel rubbished the memory of their gods.   Well he was the one who imprisoned them so of course he'd be trying to justify himself.  Particularly since the Dalish teach they trusted him and he betrayed them.    They know their gods are shut away and can't answer them.   The revelation about Mythal might give them pause since Lavellan actually met her and so she was able to confirm her murder if nothing else.   However, they have based their culture on following a model for living that they believe was given to them by their gods.   For all they know it might have been.   In any case, it has served them well enough since the fall of the Dales and ensured their continued survival.   So there is nothing wrong headed or stupid in having continued "faith" in that. 

 

Yeah, the Dalish are still a nomadic group so there wouldn't really be much of a drastic shift in how they live their lives - they may revise their vallaslin to represent something other than the Evanuris, for example, but they would still hunt, work, look after each other, protect the clan from the dangers of the wilderness and any humans who threaten them, so the basics would remain the same. I don't see them capitulating to conversion to the Chantry or human rule after the centuries they've suffered simply to maintain their autonomy.

 

Also modern Thedas came very close to extinction during the 1st Blight.    It was only through the initiative of the first Grey Wardens that civilisation was saved, and some of the knowledge to defeat the Blight did in fact come from elven slaves.    So all those old memories handed down turned out to be useful for something. 

 

True, the elves were said to be instrumental in helping create the Joining ritual.

I agree with Lobselvith that the elven religion has been invalidated. Unlike Lobselvith, I think that's absolutely a good thing. Believing in the superiority of the ancient civilization was holding the elves back.

My criticism was aimed at the how the Dalish religion is treated in contrast to the Andrastian religion. As to your post, it's not like finding out that the Creators aren't good or traditional gods will change much for the People; they are the subject of attacks because their religion is still criminalized (unless the developers decide that Leliana changes that as Divine, I suppose) and since they don't want to convert to the Andrastian faith these attacks will likely continue since they will remain a non-Andrastian group.

Being nomadic as a matter of survival only gives them time to survive from day to day, not build towards a future; their present day culture reflects their adaption to a nomadic lifestyle, which isn't likely to change much after finding out about the Creators.

Finding out about the Creators will certainly have ramifications regarding what they believe in. The Creators don't seem to be traditional gods. Gaider once said:

According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world.

That fits with the references to Elgar'nan being born of the Sun and the land, and Mythal being born of the sea. Finding out the truth about the Creators should have serious ripple effects. Perhaps the Dalish will become an agnostic or atheist group, but their status as a non-Andrastian group will still be an issue for Andrastians.

It sounds like you have a real issue with what this LobselVith8 person has to say. Maybe take it up with him, particularly with the suggestion that the "Dalish" have one unitary view, are one unitary and indivisible culture, and that we can treat them all as an inseparable whole. He's the only one who's been suggesting that this entire thread. To whit:

You do realize you quoted me saying that the Dalish generally believe in their own religion, not that every single Dalish in existence had the same views on every single subject imaginable, right?

Solas gave but one viewpoint.

If - and let me repeat that I'm using if once again for this scenario - Solas is telling the truth about the brutality and the slavery of the Evanuris, I see no reason why the Dalish who discover this would continue following the elven pantheon. Their religion describes the Creators as anything but tyrannical slavers.

The ancient memories of the Vir Dirthara give another.
Solas viewed the evanuris as malevolent slavers. But others viewed them as gods that would save/care for them.
And neither of them would have to lie about it--that would be simply what they believed.

Which is another line of discussion entirely from the one I was involved with. Admittedly, I'd hope that the Creators wouldn't be turned into one-dimensional caricatures, but I don't get the impression from Trespasser that this will be the case.

That's a meaningless tautology. People are not a hive mind. They need not have the same views. At least you've admitted your mistake: there's no reason to believe there's any commonality in what the Dalish believe.

At no point did I claim the Dalish were a "hive mind".

Edit: And how do you even square away the fact these stories change with your insistence the Dalish literally believe them to be true? Are you saying they literally believe contradictory stories are true?

So you're saying that followers of a religion can't possibly believe in their religious stories if there isn't a consensus among them all about the religious stories?

You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to a persecuted cultural/religious group trying to preserve that shared identity in the face of a majority trying to stamp them out. The result is absolutely NOT a uniform view, even among the people who are religious. Just look at someone who is Reform vs. a Chabadnic.

The stories clearly differ from time to time, as we see with Merrill telling a different story about Fen'Harel's betrayal (with a weapon) than the one we read about, or with the Dalish who follow the Forgotten Ones and have crimson vallaslin, but a religious people of people will believe in their own religion, for the most part.

The ancient elves clearly disagree with you. Ask Abelas whether he think Mythal is a villain who enslaved him.

Have I become Fen'Harel now? And I don't recall Abelas saying anything to invalidate what Solas says.

Unless Solas was lying and the Evanuris weren't villains, I don't see why the Dalish would continue to follow their religion if they find out the truth.

That's absolutely not true. I'm going to flag my Jewish card again. Even within a single denomination you will see a diversity of views. In fact a great source of diversity is what it even means to "stay true" to an identity and preserve a culture.

But I'm going to bookmark this post for whenever you suggest we can't make general inferences about what all clans believe from what a single clan believes.

I don't think I'm ever going to claim that a religious group doesn't follow their own religion, but go ahead.

Or invalidate some assumptions they may have made about the Evanuris.

You can be a villain and slaver and still have done the things the elves believe they did.

The reason the Dalish follow their faith is because of their view on the gods. To find out that the Evanuris were villainous beings who subjugated your ancestors would make it rather pointless to follow the religion.

We've provided examples of Andrastians not all believing exactly the same stuff. They didn't all believe the same things about the Herald.

We've seen some signs that some Andrastian beliefs are incorrect, but I don't see anyone here trying to say their faith has been invalidated.

I'd say that the Evanuris being villains who enslaved ancient elves would invalidate the religion of the Dalish.

And yet when someone like Sera discovers there is an actual city in the fade, it surprises her. So obviously not all Andrasteans took the chant literally at all times... This insustence that the elves must believe in a literal truth of these stories hopds no merit. All we know is that they tell these stories. That says mothing of how they interpret them.

Is the discussion whether or not some may not take it literally, rather than all of them not taking it literally? Because I was under the impression you were speaking of the latter, rather than the former.

I can understand the former, but the latter makes no sense in the context of a cultural and religious group like the Dalish. And the Dalish are a religious group of elves (that's one of the primary reasons why they are targeted by Andrastian humans).

It's no different than how Andrastians believe in religious stories about the Maker. Sure, some can see it as allegory, but it's ridiculous to argue that all of them do when these are their religious stories.

You do realize that stories can inspire people to adopt certain customs even if they don't necessarily believe the stories to be literally true, right?

And when the codex entries read that they believe the stories to be true, do we ignore them to continue this discussion over whether or not the Dalish believe in their own religious stories?

They're a religious and cultural group aimed at trying to stay true to their way of life; they're not a pan-elven group or anything like that, so it's not like there would be many divergent views about their religion among the People.

The point - the entire reason for this conversation - is your insistence that Dalish beliefs (Part 1) have been invalidated by some material in DAI and its DLCs (Part 2).

In order to examine this position you put forth, we first need to determine the exact content of Part 1. Most of what I've seen wrt Dalish beliefs have been stories, legends, folklore passed down from generation to generation orally. Just exactly what any of them believe has never been clear to me. Some may see these stories as metaphors / allegories / parables, and some may take them literally. I don't know. You, otoh, seem to think you know exactly what they believe, and it looks to me like your position is that they believe every bit of it to be literally true.

That's the entire reason for the discussion we've been having over the last several pages. One really can't determine whether Part 2 invalidates Part 1 without knowing the content of both parts.

Simply put, I'd say that the Evanuris being described as villainous would invalidate the Dalish belief in the Creators, who they didn't view as malevolent beings.

At no point did I treat it as "absurd" that the Dalish took some of their myths literally. I said there was no evidence they took them literally. I continue to think there is no evidence any measurable number of Dalish elves taken them literally.

There's no evidence the Dalish don't take their religious stories literally; it's no different than how Andrastians take their religious stories literally.

I'm Jewish. You have repeatedly said that there is nothing improper about the idea that elves have a moral obligation to breed with other elves to preserve the elven "race" because this is the only way to make more elves. This is exactly what white supremacists believe IRL. Your logic is that the only difference - the only reason these scumbags are wrong - is that it's a fact in DA that humans + elves = humans. That's just an endorsement of white supremacists. It's saying that the flaw in their view isn't their racism - it's that their racism isn't supported by evidence. That is rank insanity. Any group that goes out of their way to endorse a racial utopia, to treat an entire race of people as disease bearing pests, holds an awful view of virulent racism that echoes 1939. The Dalish demonize themselves by believing in racial essentialism.

Considering my Surana Warden romanced Morrigan and my Hawke romanced Merrill, that doesn't make any sense. I've pointed out that their children would be human, I've never said elves were under any obligation to only romance certain people.

You were the one to blame the Dalish over the children of humans and elves being human, and I found that ludicrous. And you are blaming the Dalish for how the Arlathan elves were reputed to view humans. It never stops with you.

By your standard Andrastians DON'T believe in the Maker. Mother Gisele had a lengthy explanation on how the whole story about Corypheus getting smacked around by the Maker in the Golden City might be entirely allegorical, not literal truth. But it's completely farcical to say Mother Gisele doesn't believe in the Chant of Light. It's nonsense.

 

Except there's a difference between "some people may take it as allegory" and "virtually everyone takes it as allegory", and you were persistently acting as if it was absurd that the Dalish would believe these stories literally. In a world of magic, dragons, spirits, and another plane of existence.

 

I'm not going to comment on your active endorsement of the philosophical foundation of white supremacism.

 

I'm Latino, so you might want to try a different approach if you're going to attempt to demonize me. And I bring up the 'human/elf' issue because your bias against the Dalish goes to such extreme lengths that you vilify a fictional race of people because the developers decided to make the children of humans and elves entirely human, with such examples as Alistair and Michel. Discussing the Dalish with you is a moot point when you're willing to demonize them over the worldbuilding choices made by the developers.

Believing in these gods =/= believing every bit of some story to be literal.

 

The stories that explain June and Sylaise and talk about how the Dalish honor them clearly don't treat their religious stories as allegory. Even the information from the tabletop RPG confirms the same, including how the Dalish believe that Mythal was born of the sea.

 

Once AGAIN - nobody here is acting like the Dalish 'can't possibly believe in their own religious stories'. No matter how many times you say it, it still isn't true.

 

Then I don't see the point in contesting the Dalish taking their religious stories literally.

Considering that I already pointed out codex entries that address that they treat the stories as literal (considering they adopt certain customs because they take them to be true), it's not a double standard, but when I make a good faith effort to address your questions by pointing out the codex entries and the RPG information that the Dalish believe in their religious stories, you discard the information and continue to ask for more proof.

Where do you keep getting this nonsense that anyone here has said the Dalish don't belive in their own myths? We have all repeatedly said the opposite: that we are asking for proof that their belief is literal rather than metaphorical. So far you've cited two examples: the story about Sylase teaching the elves about gynecology (which Solas 100% does not disprove and the revelation at the temple of Mythal supports, indirectly) and the DA RPG. I don't consider this RPG to be a source of canon, when nothing in any of the games suggests a literal belief in these mythological events. The story with Sylase is completely unlikely the story about El - one is about some poetic fight with the sun, the other is about teaching how children are born. Only one is making fantastical claims in a manner that could be treated as something other than allegorical. It's hard for me to comprehend how you can keep ascribing a position to others they don't hold.

 

The dwarves believe in the Stone, Andrastians believe in the Maker, and those two groups believe in stories associated with both of their respective faiths, but the Dalish can't believe in stories about their gods? The entire point of the codex entries on the gods is to give us insight into what the Dalish believe in, and the codex entries reference that they do certain things believe they believe these stories to be true. However, you're simply ignoring the codex entries. And when there is an overt example outside the codex entries that cites that the Dalish do take the stories literally, you decide to discard it.

 

It sounds to me like you're the one projecting your theory of what faith should be on the Dalish and on this setting.

 

I'm not the one arguing that the Dalish don't believe in their own religious stories.

 

And I'm not going to derail this thread by circling back to your philosophical endorsement of white supremacism.

 

Once again, it isn't the fault of a fictional race of people that the developers decided to make it canon that the children of elves and humans are human. That was a decision made by the developers; blaming the Dalish for it is simply ridiculous.

I could tell you some great stories about Zeus and Hera, but that doesn't mean I worship them. It also doesn't tell you whether I believe any of it to be true.

 

We know from the first scene of the Dalish Origin that the Dalish worship their gods. This is also made clear if an Andrastian Warden ignorantly asks one of the Dalish in Zathrian's clan if they actually believe in gods rather than the Maker.

 

What double standard? You think the people who are questioning Dalish beliefs* in this thread are adherents of Andrastianism?

(Note: in this context, by "questioning Dalish beliefs" I mean asking WHAT the Dalish actually believe, not the truth of those beliefs.)

 

In that no one asks whether Andrastians believe that the Maker is actually responsible for creation, or whether or not Andrastians believe that the Maker created spirits or spoke to Andraste. It's a double-standard when people act like the Dalish can't possibly believe in their own religious stories and this thread gets derailed for page after page because of this nonsense.

@LobselVith8,

What do you think being the "son of the Sun" means exactly?

In other words, why do you think Elgar'nan being a mage would mean that he isn't?

 

The stories of the Creators are framed quite literally in the same way that Andrastians literally believe that the Maker is responsible for creation. They are somewhat reminiscent of some Native American tales that are also taken literally - stories that explain their people and the world around them. Elgar'nan being a mage would mean that he isn't the son of the Sun, that he never fought the Sun, and that would mean other stories - like Mythal being born of the sea - also wouldn't be true.

 

If they were tyrannical mages - assuming Trespasser is true and the Evanuris are as villainous as Solas claimed - I also don't see why the Dalish would continue to believe in them. The Creators they believed in weren't villainous beings.

Except you are making a biased call on how they perceive them to be.  And on what constitutes "traditional" god.... for crying out loud, the gods of the Vikings had immense powers but were not immortal in the strictest sense or infallible.  Same goes for many of the religions filled with pantheons similar to the Dalish Creators.

 

No, I'm pointing out how the Dalish religion views the Creators. Their own codex entries are framed from the perspective that the stories are told - that Elgar'nan is the son of the Sun and fought the Sun, and that Mythal calmed him and lead to the return of the sun to the sky while their battle created the stars. I'm simply disinclined to stay silent when people pretend that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion.

 

Basically, you are choosing an extremely narrow definition of traditional god, though it has no support in our world and no set definition in the world of Thedas.  That is why almost no one is agreeing with your assertion.

 

No, I used 'traditional god' in the hopes that I wouldn't end up in a tiresome debate as to what a 'god' actually means because I didn't want to spend page after page debating what a god actually is.

 

Given that the Dalish are inspired, in part, by Native Americans and their own mythology is similar to some creation stories, the idea that the Dalish can't 'possibly believe in them' is actually offensive to me. These stories are hardly less absurd than an invisible god 'marrying' a mortal woman (one of his Children, technically). The double-standard bothers me very much.

 

If anything, the Dalish traditions are being proven more true than they are outright false. 

 

I'd certainly agree that they got some things right.

There's no being a god in a traditional sense , it is usually something/someone beyond the human condition.

 

Elgar'nan being the son of the Sun and the land is an example of how the Dalish view one of the Creators as a god in the 'traditional' sense. Even the Dragon Age tabletop RPG referenced the Dalish believing these stories, with one example being that Mythal was literally born from the sea, and how she created the moon (reading: the "Dalish believe that Mythal was born of the sea").

 

The Dalish saw their Gods as the people who build their civilisation , which is true.

 

The People also thought that their gods were benevolent, which doesn't seem to be true - this would be an obvious point of contention.

 

For them the Gods are people who taught them to hunt , who taught them medecine , who kept their ennemy at bay.They never believed in the Creators the same way Andrastian believed in the Maker.

 

With part of the issue being that, with Trespasser, we're told that they were villainous. The Dalish don't believe their gods to be villainous.

Solas thinks a lot of things. He thinks the worst of the Dalish - yet somehow I don't see you talking about how DAI has conclusively shown the Dalish are arrogant and dismissive because Solas had a bad experience.

 

Because I was pointing out how Trespasser frames how the Creators aren't gods numerous times through different phrases like "elven mages" and "false gods". I cited it as the reason why I don't think the point of Trespasser was to question what makes a god. You seem to have missed that as the point I was making as to why I - I - don't think we were supposed to question what it means to be a god.

 

More to the point, you seem totally incapable of understanding analogies. The point of talking about Christianity (or Judaism) is simple: these are religions that have creation and other myths that their adherents believe in without believing in their literal truth. Some certainly do believe it is literally true - but not all.

 

That's probably because the Dalish codex entries on their gods consider them to be actual stories that the People believe in. None of them are treated as fables that the Dalish don't believe them. A few examples:

 

"It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope.

 

"We owe much to Sylaise, and that is why we sing to her when we kindle the fires and when we put them out. That is why we sprinkle our aravels with Sylaise's fragrant tree-moss, and ask that she protect them and all within."

 

Or: "When the People were young, we wandered the forests without purpose. We drank from streams and ate the berries and nuts that we could find. We did not hunt, for we had no bows. We wore nothing, for we had no knowledge of spinning or needlecraft. We shivered in the cold nights, and went hungry though the winters, when all the world was covered in ice and snow.

 

"Then Sylaise the Hearthkeeper came, and gave us fire and taught us how to feed it with wood. June taught us to fashion bows and arrows and knives, so that we could hunt. We learned to cook the flesh of the creatures we hunted over Sylaise's fire, and we learned to clothe ourselves in their furs and skins. And the People were no longer cold and hungry."

 

Or: "And Ghilan'nain prayed to the gods for help. She prayed to Elgar'nan for vengeance, to Mother Mythal to protect her, but above all she prayed to Andruil. Andruil sent her hares to Ghilan'nain and they chewed through the ropes that bound her, but Ghilan'nain was still wounded and blind, and could not find her way home. So Andruil turned her into a beautiful white deer - the first halla. And Ghilan'nain found her way back to her sisters, and led them to the hunter, who was brought to justice.​

 

"And since that day, the halla have guided the People, and have never led us astray, for they listen to the voice of Ghilan'nain."​

 

The halla - who are sacred to the People, who guide the clans, and who they believe shepherd them into the afterlife when they die. There's no indication that the Dalish don't believe in the stories from their religion, particularly when the codex entries are framed as stories that the Dalish currently believe to be true.

 

Feel free to declare victory - but at this point you've thoroughly discredited your own position.

 

I'm sure you felt the same way when I pointed out to you that it made no sense to blame the Dalish because the developers decided to make the children of elves and humans entirely human.

To your second point, this is a distinction without a difference. DA2 hints at the fact that Dalish keepers - or at least Marethari - have a real sense of what Mythal became. Yet that doesn't invalidate their faith.

 

I'm not discussing fan theories. We've known since "The Stolen Throne" that the Dalish have had ties with Asha'bellanar; it's also why Ariane knew where her hut was. The Creators being real doesn't validate their religion if the stories they believe about the Creators aren't true.

 

To your first point, that doesn't prove the Dalish believe them to be literally true - to be actual factual accounts of real history, as opposed to a religious parable. Your view is that they're all religious literalists - but I haven't seen any proof offered.

 

Considering that part of the reason that the Dalish live as they do is because they refused to give up their religious beliefs, I don't see any evidence to indicate that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion. The codex entries even refer to certain things that the Dalish do now because they believe the stories (as described in the codex entries) to be true. I see no reason to dismiss this.

 

Again, plenty of Christians and Jews believe in Genesis and that God created humanity and the Earth without literally believing this happened 6,000 or so years ago in a Garden somewhere on earth.

 

Again, you're using a modern context in a setting that isn't supposed to be modern, and you're asking me to ignore how the codex entries on the Creators also refer to how the Dalish currently believe in those stories in modern day Thedas. We have stories that say that Sylaise taught the elves domestic arts wand gave the elves fire, or how June taught the elves to make bows and arrows, and how halla came to be because of Ghilan'nain. We have the halla viewed as sacred, and animals who help usher the Dalish into the afterlife. You're asking me to subscribe to your theory despite how the codex entries and the narrative (including Merrill's own dialogue on the elven gods) doesn't support it.

Let me cut this short: I don't particularly care to argue whether or not someone could classify them as gods in one context or another; it's simply not part of what I've been discussing. As far as the Dalish religion is considered, the People view the Creators as gods in the traditional sense. If the context in which the Dalish view the Creators isn't accurate, and the stories associated with them aren't true (like Elgar'nan fighting the Sun), then that means that their religion isn't accurate.

 

And naturally non elves would be inclined to deny any form of divinity for beings that were never supposed to exist period.  The simple fact that the Dread Wolf just walked out of "fairy tales' and into reality is enough to cause the foundation of Andrastean faith to shake, at the very least.  Sera's response to the whole ordeal proves how Andrastean's are frightened what it means for their faith.  So between that and a biased source, you have what amounts to no proof of "traditional" godhood.  You are interpreting these events in such a way that you come to that conclusion.  It is clear, some of us are not willing to make that jump given the nature of the revelations and the fact the fade is very much in play with the events ascribed to these beings. 

 

That's because I'm dealing with the rather absurd notion proposed by some people that the Dalish don't believe in their own religion, which is completely ludicrous. Whether or not you could classify the Evanuris as gods another a certain context isn't part of that discussion.

 

IHell, the fact that Solas placed the veil to separate worlds is enough to suggest he at least has the powers as normally ascribed to a god.  Mix that in with the Avvar lore deepening the understanding of "spirits" and Solas' reference to the secret of immortality and suddenly much of how we define gods seem to apply to the Evanuris.  You can't get any closer to what most traditional gods used to be defined as without naming one Zues at this point. 

 

Being powerful isn't the same as being a god in a traditional sense - as in being the son of the Sun, for example. Again, if you're trying to address that you could consider them gods under a certain context, that's simply not part of what I'm discussing. The Evanuris being gods under a certain context also doesn't make them gods in the way that the Dalish perceived them to be.