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[MordantWastrel]

Finished my first playthrough yesterday and am a little confused about Loghain.

'Stolen Throne' sets up that Loghain and Maric grow apart, and I certainly buy that Loghain thinks Cailan is a douchebag who can't begin to appreciate what had to happen for him to even be born, much less be King. The entire premise of Loghain-as-villain hinges on accepting that he genuinely believed that charging in to save Cailan would have been a waste, that the battle was already gone. If you get Loghain in your party, he even says that he's a strategist above all, and that explains his motivation - he would certainly set aside personal feelings if he truly felt that saving the King would've cost him the army. This makes Loghain's story one of pride (as the Hero of the River Dane can't admit until it's too late that he made the wrong call in dismissing the Gray Wardens' relevance and proclaiming himself regent) and (possibly) redemption when he pretty much volunteers to go out with a bang. If anything, Loghain in this light is perhaps an ultimate protagonist of the story, starting with Stolen Throne, the real tragic hero of the cycle.

But it's also the case that Loghain sent Jowan to poison Arl Eamon before the battle. This changes just about everything, as it means Loghain planned the entire thing, from regicide to conspiring with the Arls loyal to him. It makes the entire thing a power grab and it makes him out to be more like Meghren than any sort of tragic hero. Even given Loghain's distance from Maric, this kind of about-face in characterization would seem to require an otherwise absent catalyst. Loghain insists to the end that 'everything I've done, I've done for Ferelden' - but a case is not made that Cailan is such a terrible king as to necessitate his murder. I suppose it could be, but it isn't, and that makes Loghain's insistence that he's Making The Hard Choices a lot harder to swallow.

Am I missing a puzzle piece here, or what's the deal? He's one of the most interesting characters in the saga (in addition to being the only one in all three stories, yes?) and it seems like you could make a whole separate game or book about How Loghain Went Bad.

[Grey Morgan]

Don't forget that Loghain is also directly responsible for the mess at the Circles Tower. He told Uldred that if the mages came to him they could live free of the Chantry. That is what prompted Uldred's attempt to leave and ultimately the mess at the tower.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I think Bio could've portrayed him in a more ambiguous light for what they were trying to do. As it stands, I think the only real explanation is that he's amazingly arrogant and has a fleeting grasp of how to accomplish things.



I too really wanted to get on board with the tragic hero train, but like you point out the story doesn't justify all his major actions. As such, you either have to imagine that there was reasoning beyond the information provided or just accept the actions at face value.



As it stands, I think he's a moderately compelling character and appreciate Bio's effort anyway.

[Azeo]

Change your title post please, the title post itself is a MAJOR SPOILER.

[Belletor]

Forum Home » Dragon Age » Dragon Age: Origins Spoilers Forum



Your Welcome Azeo.

[Elessie]

Loghain seems to be crazily paranoid about Orlais, and it seems like that's his main motivation. (Or at least he always says it is.) Anora says that whenever Loghain and Cailan argued, Cailan would always back down. Until the issue of sending for Orlais help for the Blight came up, and Cailan refused to back down that time. Maybe Loghain took that as a sign that Orlais had "corrupted" him.



At Landsmeet, Loghain accuses you of being in Orlais' pocket and suggests you are putting Alistair on the throne to be controlled by Orlais. When Anora speaks up against him, his response is something about how even she has now been gotten to. So maybe in a twisted way he really does see himself as protectin Fereldan from Orlais by killing Cailan, trying to kill the grey wardens, etc. He's stuck in the past, where Orlais was the enemy, and just can't seem to move past that to deal with the Blight. He also lost a great deal to get Fereldan free of Orlais, and the thought of letting them in for another shot is unthinkable. At least that's how he comes across to me.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Well, it makes sense why he hates Orlais, but I don't think the claims about a foreign threat are well-developed enough to make the statements seem anything other than crazy. And crazy is fine, I just think they could've done more.

[JEBesh]

Belletor wrote...

Forum Home » Dragon Age » Dragon Age: Origins Spoilers Forum

Your Welcome Azeo.

Forum Home >> Dragon Age >> Dragon Age: Origins Spoilers Forum >> First post in Spoilers Forum: "Please do NOT put spoilers in your titles."

You're welcome Belletor.

[MordantWastrel]

If you have a problem with the post, report it to a moderator. I don't think there are any spoilers in the title - Loghain is in the game and redemption is in the game. Please don't hijack the thread by acting as the forum police unless you are the forum police.



Back to the original topic - I just don't feel that it's consistent. I'm not quite through 'The Calling' yet, but I feel like there's got to be some episode between then and the start of Origins that makes Loghain a little more evil - because he's always presented as honorable, and a premeditated poisoning doesn't seem to be that. Even Loghain's own defense makes sense: 'If I'd wanted to kill Arl Eamon, I would've sent soldiers.' I kept waiting for a 'Loghain is possessed by a demon' or a 'The real Loghain has been kidnapped and this is a doppleganger' plot to pop out.

[S00N3R FR3AK]

Yeah the title if you really think is a spoiler takes place like 20mins into the game.......



I think it was a power grab. I have a hard time trying to make him a tragic hero and am looking forward to killing him.

[Rhinna]

Loghain was always ruthless - even as a young man, his father had to hold him back. I just don't understand his motivation - Arl Eamon was Rowan's little brother - Rowan was the only woman he truly loved, but gave up for Ferelden (which is rather odd in itself, the change of heart in the book) He used to watch Cailan while Maric was out gallivanting in the countryside after Rowan's death - How could he KILL a part of the woman he loved?



It was LOGHAIN's idea to lure the darkspawn into that narrow passage, then attack them from the rear at Ostagar- if you remember in the book "the Stolen Throne" he did a very similar move that worked in recapturing Gwarenth. Why would he order a retreat? The troops were winning. He never cared much for the Grey Wardens - I'm not quite sure why - almost done with the "Calling", and Maric & crew just left Deep Roads, have not gone back to the palace yet - perhaps a clue lies there...so he had no compunction at all about a massacre at Ostagar. He tried to talk Cailan out of sending the last two Grey Wardens to the Tower of Ishal, but was unsuccessful. I really think he had hoped to wipe them all.



The only thing that comes to my mind is he was corrupted by power - power that he never really quite got a grasp on (although he was granted the title of Commander, then Arl of Gwaneth in the books) but I think there was always an undercurrent of entitlement waiting to come to the surface.

That would be the only explanation - mad with power /shrugs

[tallon1982]

Loghain also saved Maric from worse situations in the novels so the fact that he left Calian to die makes it even worse. He ditched his own men to save Maric with Rowan's help.

[Asylumer]

@Mordant



Ser Donall's story falls apart when scrutinized. His suspicion is impossible when looking at the logistics and larger context. Check out the Plot Hole (Jowan?) thread. In any court his testimony would be thrown out.



As a hypothetical, even if the knight was somehow correct, poisoning Arl Eamon before the battle only means he poisoned Arl Eamon. If Arl Eamon was the person who urged Cailen to oppose Loghain's advice in the first place, he'd try to get Eamon out of the way until the battle was over.



There are reasons to poison Arl Eamon that don't involve regicide.

[melkathi]

May I just throw this into the conversation?

Before the battle of Ostagar, Loghain urges Cailan not to fight at the front, because it is too dangerous.



I was under the impression that Loghain had planned to take out the "bad influence". Create a situation were the Grey Wardens would be in the front line being slaughtered, while he'd retreat with Cailan. When the king chose to have his own way again, Loghain might have felt that he might be too far gone to save.

[MorningBird]

MordantWastrel wrote...

But it's also the case that Loghain sent Jowan to poison Arl Eamon before the battle. This changes just about everything, as it means Loghain planned the entire thing, from regicide to conspiring with the Arls loyal to him. It makes the entire thing a power grab and it makes him out to be more like Meghren than any sort of tragic hero. Even given Loghain's distance from Maric, this kind of about-face in characterization would seem to require an otherwise absent catalyst. Loghain insists to the end that 'everything I've done, I've done for Ferelden' - but a case is not made that Cailan is such a terrible king as to necessitate his murder. I suppose it could be, but it isn't, and that makes Loghain's insistence that he's Making The Hard Choices a lot harder to swallow.

Who says Eamon was poisoned before the battle?  I think one of the problems people have with this game in terms of creating a definate timeline is that some events seem to run so close together that it becomes difficult to tell what happened before and after Ostagar.

Let's assume that when Jowan escaped, he fled somewhere between the Circle Tower and Lothering.  Redcliffe is across the lake from the Circle Tower... which isn't ideal if you're running away.  Lothering, however, is very rural, with lot's of farms and barns that can hide a blood mage when times get bad.

Both the Circle Tower and Lothering have Chantries, and therefore, Templars, but without a phylactary, finding Jowan would be difficult..  However, assuming the Chantries have a stable system of communication (which they should prior to Ostagar) it can be assumed that the Lothering Templars at least knew that there was a blood mage on the loose. 

Cut to Ostagar: The player has only been there for a day, but on the eve of battle, they are terribly wounded.  This likely put them out of commission for a while, because even with healing magic, Flemeth got to Alistair and the PC late (Morrigan metions that the PC had a close call).  Keep in mind that she also had to fly them all the way back to her hut while being careful not to be seen.  It's likely that some very 'hard to fix' damage was done to the PC because of how long it took for them to be moved to a safe location.  This is more than enough to explain them being out for say... a week.

I say this because tavel between Redcliffe and the Circle Tower is 1 day.  If you use this scale of measurement, and follow the roads instead of cutting across lakes and fields, travel to Denerim is about 5 days (that's including a margin of error for Ferelden's infamous poor weather, camp breaks, etc...) and Loghain is IN Demerim (for who knows how long) before you even leave Flemeth's hut.

But that's just for STRAIGHT travel.  We know that Loghain stopped in Lothering to recruit the Arl of Lothering and his men, who were probably not imediately prepared to march.  It probably took a few days for them to get ready, armed and armored.  Loghain also had to resupply his troops, and it's implied that he also went on a recruitment binge, taking every able bodied man he could find... which would mean that he would have to search out the local farmholds.

Assuming the Templars inform people when there's a blood mage in the area, Loghain likely knew of Jowan's presence, and with the Templars tied up (making preparations for the refugees), it was probably easy for him to both find Jowan and keep his discovery secret.

Having just played a part in the King's death, he now has a reason to fear political enemies, and as a strategist, he knows Arl Eamon is his biggest opponent. Jowan falls into his lap, and a plot is hatched.

Jowan travels to Redcliffe (which probably takes around 2 days, assuming Loghain gave him survival supplies before sending him on his way).

Jowan THEN begins poisoning Arl Eamon.

Sometime after this, Loghain continues towards Denerim.  Discluding the 2 days travel it probably took him to get to Lothering--and assuming he found Jowan soon after arriving--I'd say it took him at least 8 days to restock, gather forces and recruit before he marched for Denerim, which would be about 3 days away.  That makes a total of 11 days between Ostagar and Loghain's appearance in Denerim, which would imply that the PC has been out for 11 days.  Minus the two days travel it took Jowan to get to Redcliffe, and you're sitting at 9 days.

Loghain then has to be in Denerim long enough to gather the Bannon and have a 'Landsmeet' of sorts.  I'd say that would take somewhere around 3 days, making our total 12 days.

Then the PC travels to Lothering (around 2 days travel), creating a total of 14 days.

I believe the Redcliffe knight in the Lothering Chantry says the Arl fell ill about a week ago.  That means that Jowan had poisoned Arl Eamon for 7 days straight before being caught.  Assuming it was a good poison (keep in mind, Loghain was the supplier, so it probably was good) this is reasonable.

Thus, it's perfectly plausable to believe that Loghain poisoned Arl Eamon after the battle at Ostagar.

Now, I'm not saying that what I've posted is the TRUTH, because unless a dev comes out and tells me so, it's just an assumption based off of events that occur in the game.  I think it's a plausable assumption, so it's how I prefer to look at the situation.

If you'd rather see Arl Eamon's poisoning as a plothole... well, that's your right, but I prefer to make as much sense of things as possible for my own enjoyment.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Modifié par MorningBird, 09 janvier 2010 - 03:55 .

[KahnyaGnorc]

Loghain is a dangerous combination of "The ends justify the means" and "My way or the Highway." The fact that he is a military genius just allowed him to feel justified in those tendencies. He has a clear vision of the endgame as he sees it and will do anything to reach it, while also being uncompromising in the exact nature of that endgame.

[vickiediablos]

A lot of Loghain's later decisions seem to be heavily influenced by Howe. Methinks Howe had 4 Coercion and invested a lot of points in Cunning. *nods* Of course, Loghain consented to or overlooked them so he's still very responsible for them.

I also wonder, had the Tower of Ishal not been overrun by darkspawn and the beacon lit on time / earlier, would Loghain still have retreated?

melkathi wrote...

I was under the impression that Loghain had planned to take out the "bad influence". Create a situation were the Grey Wardens would be in the front line being slaughtered, while he'd retreat with Cailan. When the king chose to have his own way again, Loghain might have felt that he might be too far gone to save.

That's possible, too.

Modifié par vickiediablos, 09 janvier 2010 - 07:07 .

[tallon1982]

I sort of wondered about the whole influence Howe had. It makes me think that perhaps Howe had Anora for awhile and used it as a form of blackmail on Loghain. It's a longshot but I'm putting it out there.

[Asylumer]

When you realize Loghain didn't intentionally betray the King at Ostagar, Alistair's tantrum makes a lot more sense. If he forgave Loghain then he'd have to admit HE was partially responsible for Duncan's death.



That's something he couldn't do. He'd have failed Duncan. It doesn't matter that the Darkspawn were in the way, he'd force himself to take the burden of responsibility. We know this from his character -- what many would call whiny.



Everything falls into place if you accept that Loghain wasn't a traitor.



In contrast, 'big bad Loghain' comes together like a Beckian conspiracy. None of it makes sense without leaping for conjectures. So what, he was obsessed with protecting Ferelden but sacrificed the King along with a majority of the army, plunging Ferelden back into political instability which is further aggravated by the need for soldiers? That he'd encourage the King to stay in safety yet have a plot to kill him? The whole idea hinges on Loghain being a complete madman who's strategic genius evaporates and ignores the much more plausible explanation: Loghain isn't guilty (of regicide).



The game does a good job of leading the player on though. I can see where it pushes the player towards prejudice and makes Loghain betrayal "clear"... until you start looking at the evidence. Very evil Bioware. Very, very evil.

[tallon1982]

Alistair always feels responsible for Duncan's death. He admits it in the Gauntlet to the Guardian.

[fantasypisces]

Asylumer wrote...

When you realize Loghain didn't intentionally betray the King at Ostagar, Alistair's tantrum makes a lot more sense. If he forgave Loghain then he'd have to admit HE was partially responsible for Duncan's death.

That's something he couldn't do. He'd have failed Duncan. It doesn't matter that the Darkspawn were in the way, he'd force himself to take the burden of responsibility. We know this from his character -- what many would call whiny.

Everything falls into place if you accept that Loghain wasn't a traitor.

In contrast, 'big bad Loghain' comes together like a Beckian conspiracy. None of it makes sense without leaping for conjectures. So what, he was obsessed with protecting Ferelden but sacrificed the King along with a majority of the army, plunging Ferelden back into political instability which is further aggravated by the need for soldiers? That he'd encourage the King to stay in safety yet have a plot to kill him? The whole idea hinges on Loghain being a complete madman who's strategic genius evaporates and ignores the much more plausible explanation: Loghain isn't guilty (of regicide).

The game does a good job of leading the player on though. I can see where it pushes the player towards prejudice and makes Loghain betrayal "clear"... until you start looking at the evidence. Very evil Bioware. Very, very evil.

Well to be fair, a lot of the stuff that could make Loghain seem innocent does not occur (i.e. dialogues) until after you recruit him. So you have to be a very kind person indeed in order to then be able to hear his side of things.

I think the whole encourage the King to stay in safety was playing to Cailan's emotions, to make sure he would be out fighting. Someone else mentioned that in another thread (maybe Tallon?) so it is interesting to consider that.

[tallon1982]

Also if you think about it would make Loghain more evil to suggest that Calian stay behind. It gives him a cover to say he at least protected him when he knows Calian won't listen because of his emotional attachment to the Grey Warden legends. Emotions = poor judgment in some cases.

[Asylumer]

melkathi wrote...

I was under the impression that Loghain had planned to take out the "bad influence". Create a situation were the Grey Wardens would be in the front line being slaughtered, while he'd retreat with Cailan. When the king chose to have his own way again, Loghain might have felt that he might be too far gone to save.

This explanation doesn't take everything into account. Sure, he could malign the Wardens, but for what purpose? One thing know is that Loghain didn't believe there was a Blight.

However, if Loghain thought the Wardens betrayed the army at Ostagar by delaying the signal, that could fit together given his paranoia.

Loghain already believes there to be no Blight, so he suspects the Wardens of something.
The Wardens fail to light the signal in time and the King's forces are swamped in Darkspawn.
This is where Loghain's displays his paranoia -- he can't risk his men and has taken the tower as proof that the Warden's are part of a plot.
He decides against entering the fray where his army will take heavy losses and retreats.
He places a bounty on the Wardens and stops them from entering Ferelden because he's now convinced there is an Olressian plot.

That is an explanation that accounts for his strategic genius AND his paranoia for Orlais. Loghain isn't completely nuts, but he did let his issues with Orlais cloud his judgement. This also explains why he accuses the player of working for Orlais when you confront him at the Landsmeet.

Or you can believe Loghain drools and is a 2-dimensional character... up to you.

[Asylumer]

fantasypisces wrote...

I think the whole encourage the King to stay in safety was playing to Cailan's emotions, to make sure he would be out fighting. Someone else mentioned that in another thread (maybe Tallon?) so it is interesting to consider that.

But that's completely ridiculous. Why would Loghain use reverse psychology there? The opposite of jump into the fray is... jump into the fray?

It makes no sense what-so-ever.

EDITS:

fantasypisces wrote...
Well to be fair, a lot of the stuff that could make Loghain seem
innocent does not occur (i.e. dialogues) until after you recruit him.
So you have to be a very kind person indeed in order to then be able to
hear his side of things.

True, but on my first playthrough where I sided with Alistair (romance) I knew what I was doing wasn't justice. Without an impartial court my action was simply barbaric execution. We can't let our emotions get the better of us.

tallon1982 wrote...

Alistair always feels responsible for Duncan's death. He admits it in the Gauntlet to the Guardian.

And if he admitted Loghain wasn't responsible, all his fears would seem to be true... Alistair is rather emotional.

Modifié par Asylumer, 09 janvier 2010 - 04:25 .

[tallon1982]

Asylumer wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

I think the whole encourage the King to stay in safety was playing to Cailan's emotions, to make sure he would be out fighting. Someone else mentioned that in another thread (maybe Tallon?) so it is interesting to consider that.

But that's completely ridiculous. Why would Loghain use reverse psychology there? The opposite of jump into the fray is... jump into the fray?

It makes no sense what-so-ever.

I could give an example...a woman getting a man to do something for her lmao