346 réponses à ce sujet

[rak72]

@ Ejoslin,

Agreed, with unhardened Ali, Anora should be queen. The GW's should ride into the sunset, and do what GW's do.

[Swifty]

spottyblanket wrote...

Alister is supposed to be a mix between Xander from Buffy the vampire slayer and Malcom from Firefly. I dunno about the Malcom part, but Alistar is Xanderish, no question. Cept without the friend bond thing...

Malcolm? Hardly--Malcolm is a fairly tough guy who makes tough calls to protect those on his ship. That's about the opposite of Alistair who'd wuss out and dump the decision on the MC.

[Swifty]

rak72 wrote...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Swifty wrote:
Both of them need to be the second-in-command with someone sensible
ruling the place. Frankly my ultimate choice much as I personally
wanted to sheild bash her, would be Anora with her father as advisor
and Alistair as hubby. That tripod could hold a country in the
strongest possible position with each side holding the other in check.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was basicly the situation you has with Calin/Anora/Logain - didn't work out too good

Well I think Alistair isn't quite as big an idiot as Cailin. We can hope, anyway.

[Swifty]

rak72 wrote...

If Logain listened to Cailan, and waited for the Orlesion Wardens, the whole mess would have been avoided. But, as Alistair astutely points out, Logain & Anora think they are the only ones who can fix anything, and everyone else better get the hell out of the way.

And as I keep pointing out--if I were in Loghain's position I wouldn't let in the Orlesians either. Cailin refused to wait for Fereldon reinforcements which was Loghain's suggestion.

[Addai]

(Contains book spoilers)


Swifty, either Loghain made a tactical retreat because of overwhelming darkspawn force at Ostagar and left the south undefended because it was indefensible, OR Loghain saw the darkspawn as an obscure threat. You can't have it both ways.

You're also wrong that no NPC seems cognizant of the recent history with Orlais. Eamon is also very cognizant of it, hence his whole rationale for maintaining the throne of Calenhad as the only way to prevent the Bannorn from fragmenting. The legend of Calenhad was the only thing that united the rebellion long enough to kick the Orlesians out. Loghain was Maric's strategist in carrying it out, but it was also the unifying power of the Prince that inspired the rebellion to stay the course. Cauthrien says there would be no Ferelden without Loghain, but she has only one side of the story. There would be no Ferelden without the Rebel Queen, her son Maric, and Eamon's family, either.

If you think any of the nobles of Ferelden are particularly pampered, let alone Alistair, you've neither been paying attention to the codex entries about the nobility nor are you yourself particularly aware of the history of the rebellion. You are also not correct in saying that the nobles share Loghain's obsession with Orlais. Few of them, except Bann Ceorlic whose father was executed by Maric for betraying the Rebel Queen, ever mention it. Choosing "The Blight is the threat here, not Orlais" will garner you an extra vote and several voices speaking up in favor at the Landsmeet. Loghain is the only one with tunnel vision as regards Orlais and the Blight. However controversial it may have been to invite in Orlesian GWs and chevaliers, when you have a gun to your head, the enemy of your enemy becomes your friend. Loghain, as you yourself say, got such an up-close view of that gun pointed at him that he decided to abandon his king and the south to their fate. So he gets no pass for nursing his obsession.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 mars 2010 - 04:35 .

[SurelyForth]

Was he? Everyone baws about the elf-selling but did Maric give them a seat at the council? Is there a single elf nobleman? Maric's a great king if you're noble--questionable if you're a minority. Had that happened then Loghain would be in no position to elf-sell in the first place. That doesn't excuse him--it puts into political and historical context how he was able to get away with it and why as a City Elf, it didn't sway a single vote.

Stop putting words down I didn't say. I don't dislike Alistair--I say he's a good second hand man but as ruler of a country? We spend the entire game soothing his hurt feelings and trying to make him feel wanted and loved [if you want points with him]--those are not qualities of leadership in a volatile country under the threat of invasion from both the Orlesians and the Bersaad. The darkspawn may be immediate but they are fantasy critters that can be defeated by GW "magic" that even the MC does not know about until after Loghain is recruited or not. Yet you persist in ignoring that obvious piece of information, as well.

I actually agree with you about the fact that Maric didn’t seem to do a whole lot for the elves, but beyond that the country was in fairly good shape having been under oppressive rule for so long and so recently.

You have to sooth all of the companions if you want to raise their approval and, as long as I’m playing a middle-of-the-road/fairly decent PC, I don’t have to be that nice to Alistair to keep his approval up. You still didn’t explain your assertion that he chose to sleep with dogs because they would love him unconditionally. Of course, while he does long for a family he doesn’t strike me as being incredibly needy. He even handles being broken up with remarkably well, which he wouldn’t if he were so desperate for love.

And the darkspawn aren’t “fantasy critters”. The first Blight almost destroyed the world. The darkspawn have their own breeding factories that cannot be easily accessed and destroyed and they are a mindless horde that can be directed as a unit via “hive mind”, which is a huge tactical advantage in a medieval setting.

The Orlesians are no "non-threat"--they are a mere 30 years ago and clearly a danger to all and sundry. Why do you continue to argue what is a historical obviousness?

In 30 years they’ve made no advances on Ferelden- Maric was even meeting with the Empress. Besides the Orlesian reinforcements that Cailan mentions bringing in to help against the Blight, there is literally no other proof that Orlais is a threat to Ferelden during the events of the game.

I've never said the MC is Alistair's commander. What I said is that Riordon is the Senior Gray Warden. Which is he so there's no denying that "suggestion" or not--Riordon is clearly, as the Senior Warden, advising on the side of recruiting Loghain. He's quite clear about why as well. There's no denying that in this case, Alistair is going against the wishes of a superior by demanding Loghain's death and quits the GW if he doesn't get his own way right before the biggest darkspawn battle. Yet, Alistair knows the threat far better than Loghain yet he'd quit on the eve of battle? That's not even justifiable in my view. Loghain doesn't have the info about darkspawn that Alistair has--he's somewhat blind to it. Alistair is not--and quits, knowing full well his actions could result in all of Fereldon falling to the darkspawn without him and he quits for personal reasons. That's moral?

At no point in the game is there an official acknowledgement that Riordan is in charge. His role is exposition. Also, it doesn’t matter if Alistair stays or not because you still come out even in the end. If Alistair tried to kill the PC, Riordan or Loghain, that would be immoral. By just leaving he’s being (understandably, IMO) selfish but, in the end, he only hurts himself.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 mars 2010 - 04:28 .

[Reaverwind]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty, either Loghain made a tactical retreat because of overwhelming darkspawn force at Ostagar and left the south undefended because it was indefensible, OR Loghain saw the darkspawn as an obscure threat. You can't have it both ways.

You're also wrong that no NPC seems cognizant of the recent history with Orlais. Eamon is also very cognizant of it, hence his whole rationale for maintaining the throne of Calenhad as the only way to prevent the Bannorn from fragmenting. The legend of Calenhad was the only thing that united the rebellion long enough to kick the Orlesians out. Loghain was Maric's strategist in carrying it out, but it was also the unifying power of the Prince that inspired the rebellion to stay the course. Cauthrien says there would be no Ferelden without Loghain, but she has only one side of the story. There would be no Ferelden without the Rebel Queen, her son Maric, and Eamon's family, either.

If you think any of the nobles of Ferelden are particularly pampered, let alone Alistair, you've neither been paying attention to the codex entries about the nobility nor are you yourself particularly aware of the history of the rebellion. You are also not correct in saying that the nobles share Loghain's obsession with Orlais. Few of them, except Bann Ceorlic whose father was executed by Maric for betraying the Rebel Queen, ever mention it. Choosing "The Blight is the threat here, not Orlais" will garner you an extra vote and several voices speaking up in favor at the Landsmeet. Loghain is the only one with tunnel vision as regards Orlais and the Blight. However controversial it may have been to invite in Orlesian GWs and chevaliers, when you have a gun to your head, the enemy of your enemy becomes your friend. Loghain, as you yourself say, got such an up-close view of that gun pointed at him that he decided to abandon his king and the south to their fate. So he gets no pass for nursing his obsession.

QFT. History is full of equally strange alliances made to meet a mutual threat.

[Swifty]

When one speaks to Alistair he does not say anyone forced him to sleep in the kennels. He says he slept in the kennels. If he was forced to do so, I expect he would have said so. Since he adores Dog as well as Dog in a conversation with Wynne can go sleep with Alistair if Dog smells the inference there is that he slept with dogs because he likes them.



Whether or not the Orlesians have made "advances" is not ingame. Nor is the book belief that Cailin has some relationship with the Empress. What *is* ingame are the hints and statements by Liliana of their deceptive and devious practises, their enslavement of the elves, their desire for conquest, their treachery etc. etc.



If you don't think the nobles are pampered in comparison with the commoners take a look around their houses full of housekeepers yelling at elven servants , threatening to beat the help, and maids running about. That's blatantly apparent. They're far from suffering as those in the alienage or poorer quarters obviously are. Nobody is bashing them about while they collect taxes.



"The enemy of your enemy" is a simplistic philosophy. Often your enemy will use that opportunistic moment to take control of your country. That is Loghain's fear and it *is* legitimate as the Irish so sadly found out during "the troubles". And it certainly does not explain why Cailin won't get Fereldon forces there faster than the Orlesians can make it from further away.

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, saying Alistair chose to sleep with the dogs in a bit of a stretch. He was a child. But he may have been kidding a bit during that dialog as well. Saying he slept on straw is also not the same as saying he slept in the stables. Beds were stuffed with different materials. Straw mattresses would have probably been the most common -- he wasn't living in the living quarters, but even if he was sleeping with the squires, the beds most likely would have been filled with straw.



Eamon did take Alistair when he traveled, which means he was not treated as a servant. He was even bought gifts. And since Alistair does joke quite a bit, it's hard to say if he really was serious to the one comment he made about being made to sleep in the stables in Denerim.

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...
Whether or not the Orlesians have made "advances" is not ingame. Nor is the book belief that Cailin has some relationship with the Empress. What *is* ingame are the hints and statements by Liliana of their deceptive and devious practises, their enslavement of the elves, their desire for conquest, their treachery etc. etc.

The books do not deal with Cailan and the Empress.  Cailan is a child at the end of the 2nd novel.  No one is questioning that the Orlesian occupation was terrible- that is even more apparent if you have read the novels.   You're still apparently of the mind that one can't condemn Loghain unless one is ignorant of game lore.

If you don't think the nobles are pampered in comparison with the commoners take a look around their houses full of housekeepers yelling at elven servants , threatening to beat the help, and maids running about. That's blatantly apparent. They're far from suffering as those in the alienage or poorer quarters obviously are. Nobody is bashing them about while they collect taxes.

You aren't comparing the nobles to elves or commoners, but to Loghain.  In what sort of conditions do you think he's been living as Maric's chancellor?  His hard-scrabble childhood is no defense for what he did a generation later at Ostagar.  This is abundantly clear if you consider what Loghain's father would have done in his shoes.  I can tell you, he would not have been pleased about the Loghain we see in the game.

"The enemy of your enemy" is a simplistic philosophy. Often your enemy will use that opportunistic moment to take control of your country. That is Loghain's fear and it *is* legitimate as the Irish so sadly found out during "the troubles". And it certainly does not explain why Cailin won't get Fereldon forces there faster than the Orlesians can make it from further away.

Cailan is not waiting for the Orlesians, either.  During the council he says "then we should wait for the Orlesians" to try to jerk Loghain's chain.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 mars 2010 - 05:29 .

[SurelyForth]

Swifty wrote...

When one speaks to Alistair he does not say anyone forced him to sleep in the kennels. He says he slept in the kennels. If he was forced to do so, I expect he would have said so. Since he adores Dog as well as Dog in a conversation with Wynne can go sleep with Alistair if Dog smells the inference there is that he slept with dogs because he likes them.

That is really, really, really reaching. I think it's clear that he was forced to sleep in the kennels, and in the barn. I love my cats but, even as a child, I sure as heck wouldn't curl up on the coffee table to sleep with one when I have a nice, warm bed.

Whether or not the Orlesians have made "advances" is not ingame. Nor is the book belief that Cailin has some relationship with the Empress. What *is* ingame are the hints and statements by Liliana of their deceptive and devious practises, their enslavement of the elves, their desire for conquest, their treachery etc. etc.

I have no idea that Orlais sucks especially hard for the chevaliers alone BUT all governments participate in certain amount of deviousness and treachery to get what they want (Exhibit A. Selling the elves into slavery). However, there is no proof that Orlais had any designs on Ferelden when this game takes place. "Hints" aren't a good enough reason to destroy your country in the name of defending it.

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, saying Alistair chose to sleep with the dogs in a bit of a stretch. He was a child. But he may have been kidding a bit during that dialog as well. Saying he slept on straw is also not the same as saying he slept in the stables. Beds were stuffed with different materials. Straw mattresses would have probably been the most common -- he wasn't living in the living quarters, but even if he was sleeping with the squires, the beds most likely would have been filled with straw.

I'm almost positive he said he did sleep in the stable and he's being defensive and not joking when he says it. I don't think Eamon abused him, but I do think he treated him pretty shoddily (and inconsistently).

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 mars 2010 - 05:37 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I was going to reply, but Surely Forth beat me and summed it up nicely. So I'll just tack on a few of my own opinions.



Alistair, hardened or not, does take his kingship seriously. However, the difference between the two states is how confident he is, and how realistic he regards his plans, not to mention his willingness. Hardened Alistair has confidence in his ability to rule, sees opportunities to make things better, and is willing to accept the responsibility of the kingship, as well as do things more to make himself happy, instead of others. Unhardened dreads the idea because he lacks any confidence in himself, and still is afraid of upseting others, thus, he hands off responsibility and decision making to people he thinks do a better job.



But a hardened Alistair makes a great king, he is very much Maric's son in so many ways. Moreso, than Cailan was, so I doubt it would be a similar situation to when Cailan was alive and ruling. He is not like Harrowmont. Harrowmont was too bogged in tradition and in the past to make the necessary changes to society. Even unhardened, things in Ferelden do change for the better with Alistair as king, though not as well as they would if he was hardened.



Loghain, on the other hand, would be a very poor choice for leader. He is too bogged down by his own history, defined by his borders, and lacks the flexibility and forward thinking needed for such a position. Being ruthless, shortsighted and inflexible are not qualities I'd want in a leader.



His daughter, on the other hand, makes a fine queen on her own. With Alistair, you get the best possible solution. Anora's cleverness and administrative savy, with Alistair's morality and sense of justice.

[Swifty]

Having trouble with quotes it keeps splattering.



Yes Loghain can realize that the darkspawn "threat" in his view is not that important AND pull his troops out of Ostagar because they're going to get swarmed.



He tells Cailin he wants to wait for reinforcements. Cailin, the idiot, refuses. He tells Cailin not to lead the other side. Again, the idiot refuses. Loghain sees whatever he sees and knows they do not have enough troops to win and withdraws. That is *one battle*--not a war. Ostagar is overrun. Next thing he knows, he's blamed for regicide and the troops he might use aren't available from a civil war. He blames the GW because from where he sits--they caused it.







So, he's forced to let that go for the moment and deal with what's going on in Denerim while keeping his troops alive to fight another day.



We do not know *why* ingame Loghain retreats other than the fact that if the mages were overwhelmed and pulled out from sheer fear it's obvious that the tide was turning against Loghain's forces and if they had any hope at all--the mages fleeing may well have destroyed it and the missed beacon caused some sort of military screw up. If he was planning to bail out--why care about the beacon at all and why care about Wynne and the mages taking off in the heat of battle? He'd just shrug that off if the whole point was to off Cailin. On top of that it would simply be easier to poison Cailin or have him assassinated or any other number gruesome endings. If Loghain was all that devious I'm sure he could have devised some intricate plan to get someone else blamed for it. He's abrasive, arrogant and has hubris--he isn't particularly devious.



If he waned Cailin dead who wouldn't have tried to argue him out of the battle. That's purely illogical. If he planned to retreat it still doesn't make sense because again--why try to argue the idiot out of it? Give him a happy hug and sent him off to play hero and get himself killed.



If the nobles believed the darkspawn threat was so big then they would have either thrown in their lot with Loghain if he agreed to take on the darkspawn or taken on the darkspawn themselves long before the MC shows up at the landsmeet. Obviously until landsmeet they did not see the threat either, which is the whole reason the plot hinges on Eamon and the MC showing up at the landsmeet.



Why is it every time you're losing a point you chuck in the books? We're not talking about the book here--we're talking about DO:A.



Going strictly on DO:A--the nobles do nothing effective against the darkspawn and there would be no need for a landsmeet to argue if the nobles were not already on Loghain's side other than those committing their troops to a civil war. The whole point is to sway them to *your* side, unite them and get enough troops to fight the darkspawn because the MC knows how dangerous they really are.



Whether Alistair is crowned king or not is rather irrelevant at that point. The point is to slay the archdemon and keep as many troops alive as possible while doing so.

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...
He tells Cailin he wants to wait for reinforcements. Cailin, the idiot, refuses. He tells Cailin not to lead the other side. Again, the idiot refuses. Loghain sees whatever he sees and knows they do not have enough troops to win and withdraws.  That is *one battle*--not a war. Ostagar is overrun. Next thing he knows, he's blamed for regicide and the troops he might use aren't available from a civil war. He blames the GW because from where he sits--they caused it.

You say this as though Loghain should not have anticipated that his actions in Ostagar and afterward would lead to civil war.  Clearly, he does anticipate this, otherwise he would not have poisoned Eamon (prior to Ostagar) nor rushed back to Denerim after the battle.  He had laid all the groundwork for a coup, even if he did not make his final decision to go through with it until he saw the beacon (per David Gaider).  This hapless Loghain who was forced to retreat and then picks up the pieces to the best of his ability is a fantasy you're concocting, for whatever reason.  He is a strategist through and through.  He was planning all along to sideline Cailan if need be, and Ostagar provided the opportunity and the scapegoat.  It allowed him not only to take care of Cailan himself, but all the royalists but for Eamon and all of the Grey Wardens in a single stroke.  Cailan's big mistake at Ostagar was not thinking that his closest advisor, even one with whom he fought, could betray him so utterly.

If the nobles believed the darkspawn threat was so big then they would have either thrown in their lot with Loghain if he agreed to take on the darkspawn or taken on the darkspawn themselves long before the MC shows up at the landsmeet. Obviously until landsmeet they did not see the threat either, which is the whole reason the plot hinges on Eamon and the MC showing up at the landsmeet.

Haven't talked to Arl Wulff or listened to Bann Alfstanna in the Gnawed Noble, eh?

Why is it every time you're losing a point you chuck in the books? We're not talking about the book here--we're talking about DO:A.

The books are game lore.  It is the same story.  The events in DA:O unfold from the events depicted in the novels.  You maintain that people have made up their minds about Loghain on incomplete information, when it's obvious that you're the one operating on incomplete information about him.  I've had 9-10 complete playthroughs and read both novels, so my conclusions about Loghain are not based on incomplete information.  Still less on "Alistair fangirlness," though thankfully you've left off throwing around such nonsense.   I do respect that others can come to different conclusions based on the same information, but from what I see yours is lacking.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 mars 2010 - 06:15 .

[rak72]

Logain didn't want to wait for re-enforcements, it was Cailin who suggested that.  Logain didn't retreat until the beacon was lit, I don't think he ever counted on it getting lit.  He figured Cailin would get his ass handed to him, and he can use the excuse that the beacon was never lit, so he didn't know he was suppose to charge.  Ali, and the GW making it to the becon threw a wrench in his alibi, that is why it was so important to get rid of them.

As far a Ali ditching Thw GW if you pick Logain, I think its compltely understandable.  He's been kicked in the teeth everytime he lets someone in.  The GW's ultimate betrayal was the last straw.  He trusted the GW, and after that, anything the GW ever said to him was a load of crap.  So out of self preservation, he neeed to withdraw, and not ever let anyone get close to him again.

[Sabriana]

I'm not taking sides here.

However, if Cailan really wanted reinforcements, why not simply agree to wait for Eamon's soldiers? Duncan suggests it, and Cailan refuses, saying "No, Eamon just wants in on the glory." Neither one knew, of course, that Eamon was sick with poison at that point.

I think Cailan just wanted to shut Loghain up, and therefore rubbed the Orlesains right under his nose. What better way to make Loghain shut up is there?

Just my opinion, but it would make Cailan pretty inconsistent, waiving away Redcliffe's army, and then turning around wanting the foreign army to help out.

[rak72]

@ Sabriana,

Duncan just told Cail that they were on the way, he didn't say that they should wait for them. Cail didn't say he didn't want them, he was just being the ****ey buffon that he is, saying that Eamon wants the glory.

Besides, the foreign army was Gray Wardens, I think the more GW's he had around him, the happier he would be - being that he was so star struck by them.

[rak72]

LOL - they censosrd ****ey

[Sarah1281]

Redcliffe soldiers weren't on the way; Duncan just passed on the message that SHOULD they be sent for right then, they could be there in less than a week.

Although you do have to wonder why if the Couslands (and possibly others) were being forced to send troops, why wasn't Eamon allowed to help out? Especially during the human noble origin when Cailin finds out the troops he expected from the Couslands and probably Howe aren't coming? Is Eamon really that much of a glory-hogger?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 10 mars 2010 - 06:55 .

[rak72]

Arrogant buffoon

[Sabriana]

Agreed, Sarah and Rak. But Cailan didn't want them there. I guess we can agree to disagree here, because it's an impression I got that Cailan just wanted to push Loghain's face into an Orlesian army to make him shut up.

The Orlesian GW came with an army, not with a bunch of GWs. They were waiting at the border, and I'm quite sure they were regular Orlesian army contingents, chevalier's and all. I'll have to dig up an old save to make sure, but I'm quite certain I'm remembering that right.



Lol, are you calling me an arrogant buffoon, Rak?



Like I said, I'm not taking sides. In some of my play-throughs Loghain lives (well, most of them, actually) but not past the archdemon. Alistair usually is hardened, and gets married to Anora. It depends on my PC and on my RPing.

But I'm quite sure that Cailan wanted to emulate Maric and be a hero. He might have decided that he lived under his father's shadow too long, and wanted to make his own impression on the world of Thedas/Ferelden.

Understandable, but even Duncan questions the wisdom of the young king at several points in the game.

[rak72]

No, No Sabriana!! Cailins the arrogant buffoon :-)

[Addai]

@Sabriana: My understanding is that Cailan's approach to the Orlesians was more a general, long-term attempt at diplomacy between the two countries and not specifically about the Blight. Duncan is the one who wanted to wait for the Orlesian forces (GWs supported by chevaliers), and Duncan specifically says that Cailan said no to waiting for them.

Vanilla game gives us the impression that Cailan is not waiting because he brushes off the darkspawn threat. RtO gives us a different view. According to what we learn in RtO, Cailan thought they might lose at Ostagar. This puts his refusal to call up Eamon's troops or wait for the Orlesians in a different light: He did not call up Eamon's troops because he wanted some of his forces to be left in reserve in case things went badly in Ostagar; he did not want to wait for the Orlesians because he didn't believe they could make it in time and waiting would only increase the threat to Ferelden. RtO really puts a whole new spin on Cailan. He was much more the strategist than the "arrogant buffoon" (to borrow that phrase ) he appears to be in the few moments you see him in Ostagar.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 mars 2010 - 07:21 .

[RobUnreal]

Sabriana wrote...

Agreed, Sarah and Rak. But Cailan didn't want them there. I guess we can agree to disagree here, because it's an impression I got that Cailan just wanted to push Loghain's face into an Orlesian army to make him shut up.

Cailan was mostly pushing for aid from Orlais because he was beginning the necessary steps to foster peace between the 2 nations with his correspondance with Empress Celene in 2 of the codex entries.  Considering Loghain's intense hatred for Orlaisians, I highly doubt Cailan thought it would shut him up moreso than irritate him.

It seemed to me Cailan was trying to convince Loghain that the 2 nations can, and one day will, become allies. 

And, I believe that it wasn't simply that Cailan didn't want Redcliffe forces in Ostagar, It seemed to me Cailan was so taken with the legend of Grey Warden prowess that he felt that having them by his side (even in such small numbers) gave him enough power to defeat the Blight.  A belief that was mostlikely supported by their several victories before Ostagar against a smaller horde.  Being of child-like impatients, he decided that was enough and went forward with the battle plans.

[RobUnreal]

Addai67 wrote...

Vanilla game gives us the impression that Cailan is not waiting because he brushes off the darkspawn threat. RtO gives us a different view. According to what we learn in RtO, Cailan thought they might lose at Ostagar. This puts his refusal to call up Eamon's troops or wait for the Orlesians in a different light: He did not call up Eamon's troops because he wanted some of his forces to be left in reserve in case things went badly in Ostagar; he did not want to wait for the Orlesians because he didn't believe they could make it in time and waiting would only increase the threat to Ferelden. RtO really puts a whole new spin on Cailan. He was much more the strategist than the "arrogant buffoon" (to borrow that phrase ) he appears to be in the few moments you see him in Ostagar.

Where in RTO did you get this impression?