346 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

What part of RtO shows that Cailin didn't think they could win? The only bits I saw that could have been it were the letters he got from the Empress and Eamon and they were about attempts at diplomacy (which Alistair interpreted as mending fences and Loghain thought was Orlais reannexing Ferelden) and Eamon's urging to get rid of Anora (which explains why he's annoyed when you marry Alistair to her later).



Then again, it's possible I just missed it due to my wondering 'why in the world did I bring Wynne, even if she did want to go.' Honestly, it's either out of place flirting or suggesting giving Ferelden back to Orlais might have been a good idea 'for peace.' Wasn't she old enough to have lived under the first occupation? Or did that not touch the tower? I thought Loghain's response about how peace was just a word and telling her she lacked wisdom was actually remarkably restrained there.

[Addai]

RobUnreal wrote...

Where in RTO did you get this impression?

From what Elric tells you.

[Sabriana]

Ahh, thanks Addai. I don't own RtO, and I only watched people play through it. I do recall Elric saying that Cailan was very unsure of victory. I might force..., I mean ask my friend to play through again to be sure, especially about the letters.

No worries, Rak, I was jesting. The censor really does make me wonder at times. Words that are perfectly okay within the game are showing up with the wildc*rd.

I watched the part with Wynne, Sarah, and I agree. That was completely OOC, even for Wynne.

[RobUnreal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What part of RtO shows that Cailin didn't think they could win? The only bits I saw that could have been it were the letters he got from the Empress and Eamon and they were about attempts at diplomacy (which Alistair interpreted as mending fences and Loghain thought was Orlais reannexing Ferelden) and Eamon's urging to get rid of Anora (which explains why he's annoyed when you marry Alistair to her later).

Agreed, I didn't see anything in RTO, or even in the Codex Entries, that suggested Cailan knew they were going to lose. 

[CalJones]

I've got RtO and I don't remember Elric saying that, but I was laughing too hard at his "that one dark night at Ostagar" speech.



A lot of RtO seems inconsistant, probably because of the different writers, but Cailan definitely does not give the impression that he doubts they'll win in the main campaign. If anything, he is way too blase about the whole thing. "I suppose this will have to do."



I took Loghain to Ostagar the first couple of times I went, so I didn't witness the horror of Wynne's comment to Alistair until my current game. Jeebers! It's so far over the top there is no way you can take it seriously. I'm just going to pretend it never happened...

[rak72]

That flirting was revolting - and right in front of his GF no less!!!

[RobUnreal]

Addai67 wrote...

RobUnreal wrote...

Where in RTO did you get this impression?

From what Elric tells you.

I actually do remember hearing Elric say that, now.  But, he did a horrible job at making a Plan B.

[Sarah1281]

And the worst of it, no matter the PC gender or romance, is right in front of poor, strung-up Cailin.

I actually do remember hearing Elric say that, now.  But, he did a horrible job at making a Plan B.

Yeah, if Cailin were that concerned about the letters falling into the wrong hands (certainly not the darkspawn, are they even literate?) he should have had them destroyed. Surely he could remember what they said if he survived the battle?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 10 mars 2010 - 07:52 .

[CalJones]

It wasn't just flirting, it was full on! Really, really disturbing. Ick.

[Addai]

Elric tells you that Cailan believed they could lose, which is why he gave him (Elric) the key to his war chest.

[Sarah1281]

If Cailin thinks losing and thus him dying are such strong possibilities, why in the world does he put himself on the front lines? RtO actually makes me LOSE respect for him, which is kind of sad because aside from his consistent politeness no matter who the PC is, I didn't have a lot for him to begin with. Honestly 'oh, sorry you can't see your brother; I don't expect scouts back until AFTER the battle starts and their information is too late to do us any good.'

[RobUnreal]

The documents aside, because even that was handled poorly, the most logical step would have been to pull out of Ostagar, retreat north, give the Orlasians time to arrive, and join with Eamon's knights.

Modifié par RobUnreal, 10 mars 2010 - 07:58 .

[Sabriana]

You see, Sarah, that was actually my "yeech" point. My PCs never romance Alistair fully, and I wasn't even playing the DLC, just watching someone else play, but I was very taken aback by that.

But to put it back on topic, more or less, Cailan was very enchanted with the GWs, but to Loghain they represented Orlais. Hence Cailan's remark "The Grey Wardens fight darkspawn not matter where they are from". He was far too infatuated with the legend, and felt invulnerable. Maybe that prompted him to charge the darkspawn instead of holding the line, who knows.

The last Blight was 400 years in the past, and the GWs were few and far between. So neither Cailan, nor Loghain really knew more than myths and legends.

[Addai]

I don't think Cailan believes they'll lose is a strong possibility, but he does make contingency plans.



What I wonder is... this is slightly O/T... what his thought was in sending Alistair to light the beacon. He is quite insistent that Alistair go, even if the Warden volunteers to do it alone. Either Cailan was trying to spare a half-brother and possible future king since he himself had no heir, or he was trying to prevent Alistair from taking any glory away from Ostagar for the same reason. Maybe a bit of both.

[Sabriana]

I think his motivation is to keep Alistair away from the battle so he has a better chance to survive, Addai. Else, why send another GW with him? Game-wise, that is a waste of GWs, especially because Cailan does know that for one reason or another, Grey Wardens are essential for ending Blights.

I always wondered why Loghain never put up much of a fuss, though. All he says is: "Is it wise to relay on the Grey Wardens that much?". He never goes beyond that, and he says it in a very calm voice. According to Alistair, Loghain must have known that he was Maric's bastard son.

[RobUnreal]

If I had to guess (which I am, technically) I would have to go with the first thought. Regardless if Cailan was sure of victory or not, I'm sure the thought of Alistair dying didn't sit well with him.



I'm basing this idea off of how Alistair says that people who know his lineage tend to coddle him.

[rak72]

I still think Log knew there was going to be trouble at the beacon. I think he figured Ali would be dipsatched with quickly there - thus the surprise when the beacon was actually lit. I agree with Addai on Cail's motivation - a little of both

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Vanilla game gives us the impression that Cailan is not waiting because he brushes off the darkspawn threat. RtO gives us a different view. According to what we learn in RtO, Cailan thought they might lose at Ostagar. This puts his refusal to call up Eamon's troops or wait for the Orlesians in a different light: He did not call up Eamon's troops because he wanted some of his forces to be left in reserve in case things went badly in Ostagar; he did not want to wait for the Orlesians because he didn't believe they could make it in time and waiting would only increase the threat to Ferelden. RtO really puts a whole new spin on Cailan. He was much more the strategist than the "arrogant buffoon" (to borrow that phrase ) he appears to be in the few moments you see him in Ostagar.

I cannot say for sure that RtO wasn't supposed to show Cailan to be more of strategist than a buffoon, but if it was, it sure did a very poor job of it. Cailan thinks he might loose and as a consequence he does NOT call up reinforcements. It just doesn't add up!
If he thinks the forces at hand won't suffice he calls for his reserves or he is a complete idiot. If he thought he might loose even with Eamon's forces then he withdraw and hope to find a more favourable situation later. In no circumstance does dividing your forces to be defeated piecemeal by the enemy constitute a wnning strategy.

[Xandurpein]

rak72 wrote...

I still think Log knew there was going to be trouble at the beacon. I think he figured Ali would be dipsatched with quickly there - thus the surprise when the beacon was actually lit. I agree with Addai on Cail's motivation - a little of both

On an older thread David Gaider specifically said Loghain had nothing to do with the darkspawn at the tower, it was a surprise to him.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

I cannot say for sure that RtO wasn't supposed to show Cailan to be more of strategist than a buffoon, but if it was, it sure did a very poor job of it. Cailan thinks he might loose and as a consequence he does NOT call up reinforcements. It just doesn't add up!
If he thinks the forces at hand won't suffice he calls for his reserves or he is a complete idiot. If he thought he might loose even with Eamon's forces then he withdraw and hope to find a more favourable situation later. In no circumstance does dividing your forces to be defeated piecemeal by the enemy constitute a wnning strategy.

Yes, you're right.  It could even be that he gave the key to Elric just before the battle, after the horde had surfaced and they got a scouting report that it was larger than they anticipated.  I just came away from RtO with an impression, between this tidbit and Cailan's letters to the Orlesians, that he was not the puffed-up empty suit of armor the vanilla game made him out to be.

[CalJones]

Xandurpein wrote...
On an older thread David Gaider specifically said Loghain had nothing to do with the darkspawn at the tower, it was a surprise to him.

Yes, here.

http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250

He knew of Alistair's existance, but he may not have recognised him or realised that Alistair the warden was also Alistiar, Maric's bastard son. That part isn't clear. If Loghain was aware of him, he didn't seem to think he was of any consequence. It wasn't like he was actually planning to engineer Cailan's death (though no doubt he considered the possibility that it might happen, along with several other possible outcomes) so the thought that Alistair might suddenly threaten Anora for the throne was unlikely to be foremost in his thoughts at that point.

At that point he seems more annoyed with Uldred's argument with the reverand mother and ends up agreeing to Cailan's plan to shut them up.

Cailan most likely did send Alistair there to keep him safe® - as Alistair says later, even Duncan kept him out of the fighting. Cailan my have done so not because he was a potential successor but because he might, just might, have cared for him a bit.

A lot of this game is kept deliberately vague to allow for the player's interpretation so I guess we can draw our own conclusions from what went on there.

[Sarah1281]

How could Cailin not recognize him? Even if we accept that the fact that they look practically identical to be the lack of variation in the game, if you approach Alistair about marrying Anora, he says that she says 'It would be like marrying his twin' not to mention when you bring up the idea she says how similar they appear.

[CalJones]

I was talking about the possibility of Loghain not recognising him (Alistair is not at the meeting), not Cailan. I would think it likely he (Loghain) does know who Alistair is but it's not made clear that he does, at that point in the game.

[jpdipity]

I am sure Cailan did send Alistair to the tower to keep him safe. I agree he must have known Alistair was his brother. What is more surprising to me is that Alistair knows he is Cailan’s brother. Maric promised to keep the child from having to deal with the pressures of royalty.



I believe that Loghain saw an opportunity and decided to seize it – nothing more. I don’t believe that it was his intent to murder Cailan and seize the throne.



Loghain does not trust Grey Wardens. He views them as Orelesian and thus as a threat to Ferelden.



Both Maric and Cailan made attempts to form a relationship with Orlais. Loghain has always stood rigidly against any such attempts and views anyone from Orlais as a potential spy or threat.



I think he would have preferred if Cailan was not on the front lines. Ultimately, Cailan was simply a casualty for the greater good which in Loghain’s eyes is ridding Fereldan of the Orlesian threat – the Grey Wardens.



Loghain couldn’t leave before the beacon was lit – what would he say to his troops if they left the battlefield too early? There would be no way to explain that. However, when the beacon was lit, he could say it was too late to win and leave. Most people would trust his strategic genius and reputation enough that they would believe the excuse or, at the very least, not be able to prove otherwise.

[Kimarous]

Of course, there is the possibility that Elric completely misunderstood the king, taking things much more seriously than he was...



Cailan: "Hold onto this key, will you? Don't want it to slip out of my pocket and get lost in all the mud and blood now." *confident laugh*

Elric: "Yes, my king." (thinking) He doesn't think we're going to win...