346 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I cannot say for sure that RtO wasn't supposed to show Cailan to be more of strategist than a buffoon, but if it was, it sure did a very poor job of it. Cailan thinks he might loose and as a consequence he does NOT call up reinforcements. It just doesn't add up!
If he thinks the forces at hand won't suffice he calls for his reserves or he is a complete idiot. If he thought he might loose even with Eamon's forces then he withdraw and hope to find a more favourable situation later. In no circumstance does dividing your forces to be defeated piecemeal by the enemy constitute a wnning strategy.

Yes, you're right.  It could even be that he gave the key to Elric just before the battle, after the horde had surfaced and they got a scouting report that it was larger than they anticipated.  I just came away from RtO with an impression, between this tidbit and Cailan's letters to the Orlesians, that he was not the puffed-up empty suit of armor the vanilla game made him out to be.

I give you that. It is certainly possible that Cailan as you suggest, realises close to the actual battle that the Darkspawn horde is just too big and things might go poorly. This fits with the key and with sending Alistair away.
By the same logic Loghain may even have been correct in retreating. 
I may be readig too much into it, but Cailan may even have been too afraid to loose 'face' by retreating that he felt he had to stay and fight. It takes a certain moral fibre in a general to actually sound the retreat when it's necessary. Surprisingly often generals have been more afraid of loosing face than death. 

On a side note. It's really refreshing to see a debate regarding those favorite controversies Loghain and Alistair stay intelligent and free of flame war so long. Nice everyone.

[RobUnreal]

Kimarous wrote...

Of course, there is the possibility that Elric completely misunderstood the king, taking things much more seriously than he was...

Cailan: "Hold onto this key, will you? Don't want it to slip out of my pocket and get lost in all the mud and blood now." *confident laugh*
Elric: "Yes, my king." (thinking) He doesn't think we're going to win...

That's exactly how it would have went down.  haha

[Sarah1281]

...I could so see that happening.

[RobUnreal]

Xandurpein wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I cannot say for sure that RtO wasn't supposed to show Cailan to be more of strategist than a buffoon, but if it was, it sure did a very poor job of it. Cailan thinks he might loose and as a consequence he does NOT call up reinforcements. It just doesn't add up!
If he thinks the forces at hand won't suffice he calls for his reserves or he is a complete idiot. If he thought he might loose even with Eamon's forces then he withdraw and hope to find a more favourable situation later. In no circumstance does dividing your forces to be defeated piecemeal by the enemy constitute a wnning strategy.

Yes, you're right.  It could even be that he gave the key to Elric just before the battle, after the horde had surfaced and they got a scouting report that it was larger than they anticipated.  I just came away from RtO with an impression, between this tidbit and Cailan's letters to the Orlesians, that he was not the puffed-up empty suit of armor the vanilla game made him out to be.

I give you that. It is certainly possible that Cailan as you suggest, realises close to the actual battle that the Darkspawn horde is just too big and things might go poorly. This fits with the key and with sending Alistair away.
By the same logic Loghain may even have been correct in retreating. 
I may be readig too much into it, but Cailan may even have been too afraid to loose 'face' by retreating that he felt he had to stay and fight. It takes a certain moral fibre in a general to actually sound the retreat when it's necessary. Surprisingly often generals have been more afraid of loosing face than death. 

On a side note. It's really refreshing to see a debate regarding those favorite controversies Loghain and Alistair stay intelligent and free of flame war so long. Nice everyone.

I can definitely see where Addai can draw the conclusion that Cailan may have knew more than he put off.  But, the sad thing is that there is way too little evidence in RTO alone to paint Cailan as anything other than what he was made out to be in the beginning of the vanilla game.

Everyone that may have known his true feelings and intentions are dead, except for Empress Celene, as they obviously shared some opinions over the severity of the attacking horde.  Perhaps, even Arl Eamon may know something of this, too.  But, we'll see if they elaborate on it in Awakenings

[Sannox]

I have just played through for the second time, letting Loghain live. He claimed before the final battle that he'd be happy to give the final blow, that he had the most to atone for and that it would be best for Ferelden. But when it came to it, he didn't do it (I had done the dark ritual with Morrigan as a male character). It's clear from talking to him afterwards that he didn't know about the ritual, but still didn't sacrifice himself. I really thought he would do it, and was disappointed.

[Swifty]

Sannox wrote...

I have just played through for the second time, letting Loghain live. He claimed before the final battle that he'd be happy to give the final blow, that he had the most to atone for and that it would be best for Ferelden. But when it came to it, he didn't do it (I had done the dark ritual with Morrigan as a male character). It's clear from talking to him afterwards that he didn't know about the ritual, but still didn't sacrifice himself. I really thought he would do it, and was disappointed.

Must be a game glitch if you did the DS because he absolutely took one for the gipper in my game [in a very dignified way, I might add]

To be clear how it works is you get the archdemon down to 0 hitpoints then whoever is sacrificing jumps the dragon AFTER that. If you have DS'ed I doubt it is possible to get that cutscene of "who is going to sacrifice?" then the actual dragon jumping.

Modifié par Swifty, 10 mars 2010 - 11:42 .

[Morroian]

Xandurpein wrote...
I think it all comes down to the prophecy Maric and Loghain recieves in "The Stolen Throne". Maric and Loghain each recieves a prophecy. Maric that the Blight is coming shortly after his death and Loghain that he will betray Maric three times. Loghain refuse to accept this prophecy as he is devoted to Maric. It therefore becomes an article of faith for Loghain tha there is no true Blight as this proves that the prohpecies where wrong and he won't betray Maric. It is of course all in the nature of the tragic hero that he fullfills his own prophecy by trying to avoid it.

Maric was the one who received both prophecies from Flemeth. I think he told Loghain about the betrayal but not the blight.

[Morroian]

Swifty wrote...
Was he? Everyone baws about the elf-selling but did Maric give them a seat at the council? Is there a single elf nobleman? Maric's a great king if you're noble--questionable if you're a minority. Had that happened then Loghain would be in no position to elf-sell in the first place. That doesn't excuse him--it puts into political and historical context how he was able to get away with it and why as a City Elf, it didn't sway a single vote.

You're equating selling elves into slavery with not giving them a council seat? Seriously? Of the the 3 loves of Maric's life 2 were elves.

And how do you know Maric was a great king only if you were a noble? You haven't read the books. FWIW Maric appeared to be loved by all and sundry.

[Sarah1281]

It's clear from talking to him afterwards that he didn't know about the ritual, but still didn't sacrifice himself. I really thought he would do it, and was disappointed.

I've had Loghain do the DR and explained to him about the baby and he was STILL confused about why we were both alive post-coronation. Loghain will insist on doing the sacrifice (although you can insist on doing it yourself and he will listen) if an actual sacrifice has to be made. While it may be kind of strange as far as plot goes, it would be really strange if you and an oblvious Alistair or Loghain argued about who was going to die...and then no one did.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Morroian wrote...


You're equating selling elves into slavery with not giving them a council seat? Seriously? Of the the 3 loves of Maric's life 2 were elves.

And how do you know Maric was a great king only if you were a noble? You haven't read the books. FWIW Maric appeared to be loved by all and sundry.

Maric was actually quite prepared to marry Katriel and make her queen. However, circumstances and Loghain's "hardening" of him changed that. But he was, at one point, quite prepared to do something that drastic. I think political realities and pressure prevented him from doing all he wished. Whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable. However, the prejudice against elves runs pretty deeply throughout Thedas.

[Morroian]

Sabriana wrote...
The last Blight was 400 years in the past, and the GWs were few and far between. So neither Cailan, nor Loghain really knew more than myths and legends.

Except Marci had direct experience with the darkspawn principally in The Calling but also in the Stolen Throne and surely would have relayed that to Loghain at least.

[Swifty]

Morroian wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Was he? Everyone baws about the elf-selling but did Maric give them a seat at the council? Is there a single elf nobleman? Maric's a great king if you're noble--questionable if you're a minority. Had that happened then Loghain would be in no position to elf-sell in the first place. That doesn't excuse him--it puts into political and historical context how he was able to get away with it and why as a City Elf, it didn't sway a single vote.

You're equating selling elves into slavery with not giving them a council seat? Seriously? Of the the 3 loves of Maric's life 2 were elves.

And how do you know Maric was a great king only if you were a noble? You haven't read the books. FWIW Maric appeared to be loved by all and sundry.

Doesn't matter who is boffing who. Having sex with the someone doesn't mean they have any political power. Might as well say that if you boff the serving maid she suddenly gets equal rights and better pay due to a few rolls in the broom closet.

Groups with no political power, in this case elves, and are actively discriminated against--do not have a prayer when something like Loghain's elf-selling is going on. And as I've stated repeatedly about the ingame--bring up the elf selling and not one noble sways their vote. That doesn't make Loghain less responsible for doing it but it does create an environment where he can get away with it. As the saying goes, "For evil to flourish just takes good people who do nothing" and that is clearly the case with the elf-selling. Frankly, if the nobles were so freaking appalled it would have swayed the vote and did not. In fact--that's one of the truest parts of writing in the whole story.

And yes, I do hold Maric responsible his part of the oppression because he was clearly in the position to give elves a say in council or make one or two nobility and did not. The fact is--oppression such as that does not happen in a vaccuum. And all the "how good a king is" depends on who is benefiting. Is he overall a nice guy or good king? Maybe. But he certainly didn't improve the lot of the elves so hero worshipping him as a fictional character isn't in my future regardless of what a book I've never read, says about him.

So, in the case of elves--Maric's or Cailin's kingship isn't much different for them than Orlesian domination. Or as a great line in Farscape said, "I don't care whose running this mess because it certainly isn't going to be me."

[Swifty]

Maric was actually quite prepared to marry Katriel and make her queen. However, circumstances and Loghain's "hardening" of him changed that. But he was, at one point, quite prepared to do something that drastic. I think political realities and pressure prevented him from doing all he wished. Whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable. However, the prejudice against elves runs pretty deeply throughout Thedas.

Well and marrying someone is one thing--allowing that minority to have a seat at the table is another. Marriage actually just makes people say, "well he's thinking with his squishy bits".

That prejudice is part of the reason Loghain feels free to elf-sell. He's not a stupid man. Whether he shares that prejudice [has anyone played an elf and GW'ed him to find out? Maybe I should replay one of my elves? Does he actually hate elves?] or is exigent enough to take advantage of it--he knows full well nobody is going to find it morally objectionable because they don't have any political power.

In fact--that was what I demanded of Anora before I put that devious wench on the throne. I was actually surprised that she went through with it and didn't bail on me.

Modifié par Swifty, 11 mars 2010 - 01:42 .

[Sarah1281]

When I played an elf the only difference I noted was that he gave a longer speech about why he had to sell the elves into slavery at the Landsmeet, but that might have been because you can mention it in either your second or third line and I usually do it in one but picked it in the other that time.

[Swifty]

Sarah1281 wrote...

When I played an elf the only difference I noted was that he gave a longer speech about why he had to sell the elves into slavery at the Landsmeet, but that might have been because you can mention it in either your second or third line and I usually do it in one but picked it in the other that time.

I spoke in the landsmeet but that's not what I meant. I want to know if anyone GWed him and then asked him in camp about elf selling to see if he has some response.

[Sarah1281]

I did that too and I didn't notice anything origin-specific. My elf playthrough was the only one I had Loghain with me for the US and he mentioned something right before about how much he wronged you, but it sounded generic enough for any origin.

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...

And as I've stated repeatedly about the ingame--bring up the elf selling and not one noble sways their vote.

Not true.  Why do you think the game has you go through the whole rigamarole of getting proof of Loghain's conspiring with slavers?

From the Wiki:
A couple of potentially useful accusations that you can level against Loghain are:

• The enslavement of the alienage elves (if you got the slaver documents as proof), which will outrage the nobles.
  
• Loghain's collaboration with Arl Howe, who tortured people in his dungeons. (see below)
  
• Loghain's hiring of a blood mage to assassinate Arl Eamon. (see below)
  
• Saying that "The blight is the problem, not Orlais" will grant
  you support from the landsmeet, but it is important that you speak to
  Arl Wulff at the tavern before the landsmeet, or else the landsmeet
  will still reach a tie and you will not get the support from the last
  noble.
  

[Sarah1281]

Why do you need to speak to Wulff at the tavern, though? Yes, he tells you that the South has fallen but that will have been the case regardless and you can't bring that up, only that the Blight is the problem. Besides, you kind of ****** Wulff off no matter what dialogue option you pick so it's not like you win him over at all.

[RobUnreal]

It's just a matter of meeting people's needs in a social sense. He lost everything to the advancing horde. Talking to him opens up the possibility of that vote because it makes you seem sympathetic to his specific situation (if you say that the Blight is more important), making you that much more appealing compared to a power-hungry Loghain.

[Morroian]

Swifty wrote...
Groups with no political power, in this case elves, and are actively discriminated against--do not have a prayer when something like Loghain's elf-selling is going on. And as I've stated repeatedly about the ingame--bring up the elf selling and not one noble sways their vote. That doesn't make Loghain less responsible for doing it but it does create an environment where he can get away with it. As the saying goes, "For evil to flourish just takes good people who do nothing" and that is clearly the case with the elf-selling. Frankly, if the nobles were so freaking appalled it would have swayed the vote and did not. In fact--that's one of the truest parts of writing in the whole story.

Really so what. It doesn't excuse Loghain selling them into slavery, something that is clearly regarded by your party as wrong. It doesn't make Maric as bad as Loghain.

Swifty wrote...
And yes, I do hold Maric responsible his part of the oppression because he was clearly in the position to give elves a say in council or make one or two nobility and did not. The fact is--oppression such as that does not happen in a vaccuum. And all the "how good a king is" depends on who is benefiting. Is he overall a nice guy or good king? Maybe. But he certainly didn't improve the lot of the elves so hero worshipping him as a fictional character isn't in my future regardless of what a book I've never read, says about him.

Politics is messy, if he required the consent of other nobles and can't get it there's nothing much he can do. Its hardly a criticism that he couldn't personally make those sort of inroads.

[Morroian]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why do you need to speak to Wulff at the tavern, though? Yes, he tells you that the South has fallen but that will have been the case regardless and you can't bring that up, only that the Blight is the problem. Besides, you kind of ****** Wulff off no matter what dialogue option you pick so it's not like you win him over at all.

IIRC you need to go back and see him after you've been to Howe's estate.

[Swifty]

Morroian wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Groups with no political power, in this case elves, and are actively discriminated against--do not have a prayer when something like Loghain's elf-selling is going on. And as I've stated repeatedly about the ingame--bring up the elf selling and not one noble sways their vote. That doesn't make Loghain less responsible for doing it but it does create an environment where he can get away with it. As the saying goes, "For evil to flourish just takes good people who do nothing" and that is clearly the case with the elf-selling. Frankly, if the nobles were so freaking appalled it would have swayed the vote and did not. In fact--that's one of the truest parts of writing in the whole story.

Really so what. It doesn't excuse Loghain selling them into slavery, something that is clearly regarded by your party as wrong. It doesn't make Maric as bad as Loghain.

Swifty wrote...
And yes, I do hold Maric responsible his part of the oppression because he was clearly in the position to give elves a say in council or make one or two nobility and did not. The fact is--oppression such as that does not happen in a vaccuum. And all the "how good a king is" depends on who is benefiting. Is he overall a nice guy or good king? Maybe. But he certainly didn't improve the lot of the elves so hero worshipping him as a fictional character isn't in my future regardless of what a book I've never read, says about him.

Politics is messy, if he required the consent of other nobles and can't get it there's nothing much he can do. Its hardly a criticism that he couldn't personally make those sort of inroads.

Where did I say "as bad as Loghain"? Please enlighten me.

What I said was that by virtue of the fact that elves have no political power--it opens the door to the abuses such as Loghain's elf selling.

And as for the person who said, "here's the wiki" play the game. You get NO votes over the elf selling--it's precisely why I had to "start a rebellion" the first game through--because we lost the vote. No nobles vote against Loghain over elf selling. They will however vote over the noble's son, Arl Wulfs lands etc etc--pick any two other than elves and they will vote with you. I ran it through a few times just to see if I was right [because I found that interesting on the writer's part and truthful in a fictional environment] and it worked out the same way every time. No votes for the elves. They gasped but it did not sway the votes. It actually makes sense given the game's political environment, cruel sense, but sense.

Okay so if Maric doesn't have enough power to "make" a noble elf or put one on the council just how did he manage to put the commoner Loghain in power? Maric either has the power, or he does not.

When I demanded it of Anora she conceeded immediatly to gain the throne, thus putting Shianna on the council--if she could do it, Maric could have done it. She didn't ask the nobles she simply implemented it. In another play through Alistair gave a homeland to the Dalish AND a seat on the council to Shianna at my MC's funeral.

So I'm not buying the arguement that "Maric couldn't do it."

[Addai]

So the entire alienage quest is for... kicks? You need to get the slaver letter just for the hell of it? Some of the outcome is randomized. I played it recently with Anora betrayal and choosing the same responses, won the LM 1 out of 3 tries. Mentioning the elves, Arl Eamon's poisoning, the torture of Oswyn's son and the Blight are the positives in getting a vote.

Have I mentioned that I've had 9 or 10 complete playthroughs? Please keep this in mind when you tell other people to "play the game."   Not to mention that the Wiki writers probably have played the game, too.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 mars 2010 - 03:41 .

[CybAnt1]

I find it interesting the people at the Landsmeet are not willing to forgive or accept Loghain for enslaving the elves, allowing Howe to torture people, or attempting to poison Arl Eamon, yet his "justifiers" are.



He may have been a great general, he might be a great character for your party, maybe he is a living legend to Ferelden ... IMHO none of that cancels out that he's an evil man who thinks the ends justify the means.

[RobUnreal]

Swifty wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Groups with no political power, in this case elves, and are actively discriminated against--do not have a prayer when something like Loghain's elf-selling is going on. And as I've stated repeatedly about the ingame--bring up the elf selling and not one noble sways their vote. That doesn't make Loghain less responsible for doing it but it does create an environment where he can get away with it. As the saying goes, "For evil to flourish just takes good people who do nothing" and that is clearly the case with the elf-selling. Frankly, if the nobles were so freaking appalled it would have swayed the vote and did not. In fact--that's one of the truest parts of writing in the whole story.

Really so what. It doesn't excuse Loghain selling them into slavery, something that is clearly regarded by your party as wrong. It doesn't make Maric as bad as Loghain.

Swifty wrote...
And yes, I do hold Maric responsible his part of the oppression because he was clearly in the position to give elves a say in council or make one or two nobility and did not. The fact is--oppression such as that does not happen in a vaccuum. And all the "how good a king is" depends on who is benefiting. Is he overall a nice guy or good king? Maybe. But he certainly didn't improve the lot of the elves so hero worshipping him as a fictional character isn't in my future regardless of what a book I've never read, says about him.

Politics is messy, if he required the consent of other nobles and can't get it there's nothing much he can do. Its hardly a criticism that he couldn't personally make those sort of inroads.

Where did I say "as bad as Loghain"? Please enlighten me.

What I said was that by virtue of the fact that elves have no political power--it opens the door to the abuses such as Loghain's elf selling.

And as for the person who said, "here's the wiki" play the game. You get NO votes over the elf selling--it's precisely why I had to "start a rebellion" the first game through--because we lost the vote. No nobles vote against Loghain over elf selling. They will however vote over the noble's son, Arl Wulfs lands etc etc--pick any two other than elves and they will vote with you. I ran it through a few times just to see if I was right [because I found that interesting on the writer's part and truthful in a fictional environment] and it worked out the same way every time. No votes for the elves. They gasped but it did not sway the votes. It actually makes sense given the game's political environment, cruel sense, but sense.

Okay so if Maric doesn't have enough power to "make" a noble elf or put one on the council just how did he manage to put the commoner Loghain in power? Maric either has the power, or he does not.

When I demanded it of Anora she conceeded immediatly to gain the throne, thus putting Shianna on the council--if she could do it, Maric could have done it. She didn't ask the nobles she simply implemented it. In another play through Alistair gave a homeland to the Dalish AND a seat on the council to Shianna at my MC's funeral.

So I'm not buying the arguement that "Maric couldn't do it."

Given the nature of the political machine, putting someone in a position of authority is not always easy, unless the person did something outrageously incredible that it changes the majority's opinion.

Maric was able to make Loghain a noble, despite commoner lineage, because he was the general that turned back the Orlisian forces.

Wynne is the first mage to have a seat on the council in many years because of her part in helping the Warden fight the darkspawn.

The Dalish were granted land because they won respect helping the humans of Ferelden defeat the blight.

A ruler who puts someone in that position of power without
proper credentials risks looking like an opportunist trying to control all
facets of government through puppets.

Nothing comes without merit enough to claim it, especially when you are the minority fighting the majority because people will see you as undeserving of your status.  Sadly, those times usually come during extreme circumstances.

Modifié par RobUnreal, 11 mars 2010 - 04:06 .