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[Sannox]

Swifty wrote...

Sannox wrote...

I have just played through for the second time, letting Loghain live. He claimed before the final battle that he'd be happy to give the final blow, that he had the most to atone for and that it would be best for Ferelden. But when it came to it, he didn't do it (I had done the dark ritual with Morrigan as a male character). It's clear from talking to him afterwards that he didn't know about the ritual, but still didn't sacrifice himself. I really thought he would do it, and was disappointed.

Must be a game glitch if you did the DS because he absolutely took one for the gipper in my game [in a very dignified way, I might add]

To be clear how it works is you get the archdemon down to 0 hitpoints then whoever is sacrificing jumps the dragon AFTER that. If you have DS'ed I doubt it is possible to get that cutscene of "who is going to sacrifice?" then the actual dragon jumping.

Sarah1281 wrote...

I've had Loghain do the DR and
explained to him about the baby and he was STILL confused about why we
were both alive post-coronation. Loghain will insist on doing the
sacrifice (although you can insist on doing it yourself and he will
listen) if an actual sacrifice has to be made. While it may be kind of
strange as far as plot goes, it would be really strange if you and an
oblvious Alistair or Loghain argued about who was going to die...and
then no one did.

I can see how it would be awkward arguing at the moment the dragon was killed, but in my playthrough, there was no argument about who was doing the killing blow.   Loghain had agreed to do it, and seemed happy to do it.  I had done the dark ritual (with my male warden) as a backup plan, because there was no guarantee that Loghain would be alive to do the job at the end of the battle, and I didn't want to sacrifice myself.  

When the dragon got down to 0 hitpoints, there was no chance to choose who was going forward - there was a cutscene in which my character did the final blow with Loghain standing back and watching.  Maybe it is a glitch, but it changes the character of Loghain.   He has a chance for atonement and to serve his country which he claims to want, but at the last minute, he backs away from it.  (I suppose it's understandable that he'd choose his own life over my warden's, but still.   Maybe I'm irritated because there is no way my character would have rushed forward and taken that risk when Loghain had volunteered).

[Xandurpein]

Sannox wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Sannox wrote...

I have just played through for the second time, letting Loghain live. He claimed before the final battle that he'd be happy to give the final blow, that he had the most to atone for and that it would be best for Ferelden. But when it came to it, he didn't do it (I had done the dark ritual with Morrigan as a male character). It's clear from talking to him afterwards that he didn't know about the ritual, but still didn't sacrifice himself. I really thought he would do it, and was disappointed.

Must be a game glitch if you did the DS because he absolutely took one for the gipper in my game [in a very dignified way, I might add]

To be clear how it works is you get the archdemon down to 0 hitpoints then whoever is sacrificing jumps the dragon AFTER that. If you have DS'ed I doubt it is possible to get that cutscene of "who is going to sacrifice?" then the actual dragon jumping.

Sarah1281 wrote...

I've had Loghain do the DR and
explained to him about the baby and he was STILL confused about why we
were both alive post-coronation. Loghain will insist on doing the
sacrifice (although you can insist on doing it yourself and he will
listen) if an actual sacrifice has to be made. While it may be kind of
strange as far as plot goes, it would be really strange if you and an
oblvious Alistair or Loghain argued about who was going to die...and
then no one did.

I can see how it would be awkward arguing at the moment the dragon was killed, but in my playthrough, there was no argument about who was doing the killing blow.   Loghain had agreed to do it, and seemed happy to do it.  I had done the dark ritual (with my male warden) as a backup plan, because there was no guarantee that Loghain would be alive to do the job at the end of the battle, and I didn't want to sacrifice myself.  

When the dragon got down to 0 hitpoints, there was no chance to choose who was going forward - there was a cutscene in which my character did the final blow with Loghain standing back and watching.  Maybe it is a glitch, but it changes the character of Loghain.   He has a chance for atonement and to serve his country which he claims to want, but at the last minute, he backs away from it.  (I suppose it's understandable that he'd choose his own life over my warden's, but still.   Maybe I'm irritated because there is no way my character would have rushed forward and taken that risk when Loghain had volunteered).

Glitch or not, but as far as I know your own character will automatically be the one to kill the Archdemon if you do the Dark Ritual, regardless. The conversation between the PC and the other Grey Warden (Alistair or Loghain) about who is going to take the final blow never triggers if you do the Dark Ritual. I guess the game assumes that the player wants to do the heroic thing him-/herself when there is no risk of death.

Technically it's not that Loghain backs away from atonement, but your character (forced by the game) that preempts him. He never even gets the chance, just as a female character in love with alistair never gets a chance to save Alistair, by sacrificing themselves.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 mars 2010 - 11:26 .

[Sannox]

Thanks for the explanation. So if my character does the dark ritual, Loghain is unable to take the killing blow (rather than his avoidance being an indication of his character). I wish there was a way to change that.

[Swifty]

@Sannox:



Loghain pretty much begs you to let him take the ritual blow in the cutscene. He doesn't do it for redemption--he genuinely wants to atone. The DS stops any Gray Warden who deals the killing blow from dying.



Only makes sense, given what Morrigan tells you--that if you impregnate her, nobody dies. You can't have it both ways, it would make no sense.



If you spend time talking with Loghain during camp time, it's more than obvious that he is, in his own way, absolutely trustworthy to deal the death blow because he would do *anything* to save his daughter or Fereldon.





He may be abrasive, do some appalling things and dark but once his word is given he's not the sort to ever go back on it.

[Addai]

Caladhiel wrote...
one surely has to respect his character.

I wouldn't say that!  Even in the novels, despite his heroism, he is ruthless and really only cares about getting revenge on the Orlesians for what they did to his mother.  His nationalism talk simply fits that personal agenda.  I do see him as a tragic figure, but mainly because he can never get beyond that one critical moment in his life.  In the end it not only consumes him, but almost (but for the PC) consumes everything around him.

[Swifty]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I find it interesting the people at the Landsmeet are not willing to forgive or accept Loghain for enslaving the elves, allowing Howe to torture people, or attempting to poison Arl Eamon, yet his "justifiers" are.

He may have been a great general, he might be a great character for your party, maybe he is a living legend to Ferelden ... IMHO none of that cancels out that he's an evil man who thinks the ends justify the means.

Where do you get "evil" from? "Evil" is someone who never sees what they have done and the damage they caused--that would be Morrigan or Howe, not Loghain. Loghain sees it quite clearly if you GW him and build his trust enough for him to tell you about it.

And as for "forgiving" Loghain, that may have nothing to do with the MC's decision.

And what Howe did has nothing to do with Loghain in most cases, unless you hold the same standard over Eamon's head. How many times can the obvious be said? The Tortured Noble tells you flat up that his father supports Loghain. The father tells you the same thing. Loghain has nothing to gain by  torturing the boy or involving himself in Howe's business including the Tortured Noble, the kidnapping of his daughter, why Soris is in prison [that's even before Howe's day] etc. And as I've said before, whatever Eamon's poisoning is about, it isn't about killing him because if Loghain wanted him dead--he'd BE dead.

As for torture--even Howe is hardly the only noble torturing the commoners. As I've said before, when dungeon crawling every single noble has dead bloody bodies all over their basements. So put it in context.

The elf selling is unquestionably Loghain's doing.

[Sannox]

Swifty wrote...

@Sannox:

Loghain pretty much begs you to let him take the ritual blow in the cutscene. He doesn't do it for redemption--he genuinely wants to atone. The DS stops any Gray Warden who deals the killing blow from dying.

Only makes sense, given what Morrigan tells you--that if you impregnate her, nobody dies. You can't have it both ways, it would make no sense.

If you spend time talking with Loghain during camp time, it's more than obvious that he is, in his own way, absolutely trustworthy to deal the death blow because he would do *anything* to save his daughter or Fereldon.


He may be abrasive, do some appalling things and dark but once his word is given he's not the sort to ever go back on it.

That's why I was surprised.  I was sure that he would go for the killing blow, as he promsied (after the conversation with Riordan and before Morrigan, in his room).  He was right next to the dragon, whereas my character, a mage, was standing back.   In the cut scene he has stepped back from the dragon and my character moves forward and deals the killing blow.
 
I don't know if it's assumed that the male PC will so be certain that the ritual will work that they'll risk their own life, and try to stop Loghain geting the killing blow.  But I don't know why that should be.  My character was happy for Loghain to make the sacrifice.  Loghain was happy to do so,.

As a player I had grown attached to Loghain's character and had my character do Morrigan's ritual mainly to spare Loghain (without his knowledge) not himself.   I wanted to see what he had to say at the end, and there was something satisfying about sparing his life yet again.  But I still wanted him to deal the death blow, thinking he was going to die.  

Modifié par Sannox, 11 mars 2010 - 05:07 .

[Swifty]

Caladhiel wrote...

Swifty wrote...

He may be abrasive, do some appalling things and dark but once his word is given he's not the sort to ever go back on it.

That's just the thing about Loghain, isn't it? No matter how many stupid and seemingly heartless things he has done, he is honourable (in his own fashion), and his wish for atonement in the end is genuine. *sigh*     It reminds me of some of the ancient Greek dramas: one might not be able to forgive Loghain for what he has done, but one surely has to respect his character. Which on the whole makes him an even more tragic figure... 

Thank you. It's a point I've been trying to make. Historically, wars of liberation are invariably followed by civil war. It is a testament [if the writers are aware of that historical dicotomy] to Maric and Loghain that this did not happen in Fereldon. And if there's any reality in the writing [as opposed to hero worshipping horsespit]--they would be doing some pretty nasty things together to ensure the country didn't revert and to ensure that during the rebellion, collaborators were punished in terrifying ways so that no one followed suit.

It is also a historical imperitive that rebellions are gory, nasty affairs and that "nice" people are not the people who liberate countries particularly in Medieval times. Gandhi was only able to do what he did because the British empire was already failing and the world press was bashing Britain. Before his time--liberation was a bloody business and not for the faint of heart.

Loghain was the man for the job whether anyone likes it or not.  In a sense, he's tragic because once he has done everyone's dirty business for freedom, nobody quite knows how to take him or how to control him. He trusted Maric because Maric earned it. He trusts the GW because the GW earns it.

He's a crappy politician, he lacks the tact. He's an unstoppable force of nature almost, and he has no respect and will not listen to the council of those he feels did not contribute fully to freeing the country. I suspect that's why Howe and he are so cozy and blinds him to Howe's failings. Frankly in his shoes I might well see Eamon as a collaborator or at least fully untrustworthy for many reasons including his Orlesian wife, his treatment of Maric's bastard son and his belief that bloodline is more important than merit.

When you GW him and he understands the darkspawn threat thoroughly--he does what he was born to do and he seems relieved to be doing it.

[Swifty]

Sannox wrote...

Swifty wrote...

@Sannox:

Loghain pretty much begs you to let him take the ritual blow in the cutscene. He doesn't do it for redemption--he genuinely wants to atone. The DS stops any Gray Warden who deals the killing blow from dying.

Only makes sense, given what Morrigan tells you--that if you impregnate her, nobody dies. You can't have it both ways, it would make no sense.

If you spend time talking with Loghain during camp time, it's more than obvious that he is, in his own way, absolutely trustworthy to deal the death blow because he would do *anything* to save his daughter or Fereldon.


He may be abrasive, do some appalling things and dark but once his word is given he's not the sort to ever go back on it.

That's why I was surprised.  I was sure that he would go for the killing blow, as he promsied (after the conversation with Riordan and before Morrigan, in his room).  He was right next to the dragon, whereas my character, a mage, was standing back.   In the cut scene he has stepped back from the dragon and my character moves forward and deals the killing blow.
 
I don't know if it's assumed that the male PC will so be certain that the ritual will work that they'll risk their own life, and try to stop Loghain geting the killing blow.  But I don't know why that should be.  My character was happy for Loghain to make the sacrifice.  Loghain was happy to do so,.

As a player I had grown attached to Loghain's character and had my character do Morrigan's ritual mainly to spare Loghain (without his knowledge) not himself.   I wanted to see what he had to say at the end, and there was something satisfying about sparing his life yet again.  But I still wanted him to deal the death blow, thinking he was going to die.  

Well, wrong cut scene for your character then;) They didn't write yours in.

And yes this time through I'll DS it and take Loghain--for completely different reasons, though.

Of course you could let him die on the roof from dragon breath tanking and you make the killing blow although I suspect you wouldnt find that satisfying?

[CalJones]

If you're attached to his character then letting him slay the archdemon is really the best ending for him. If he survives that battle, due to his age he is not going to live all that much longer (the epilogue cards say "several" years which is vague, but I'd guess between 5 and 10) and then will end up having a miserable death alone in the Deep Roads. Warden tradition, yes, but still crappy (sucks to be a Warden, all things considered - hating the Deep Roads as much as I do, I hate to think of any of our Warden characters dying down there. It's so depressing ). If he dies killing the archdemon, he earns his redemption and is remembered as a hero.



Obviously, anyone doesn't like Loghain, then the redeemer ending isn't going to appeal all that much. It's my personal favourite, however.

[Swifty]

CalJones wrote...

If you're attached to his character then letting him slay the archdemon is really the best ending for him. If he survives that battle, due to his age he is not going to live all that much longer (the epilogue cards say "several" years which is vague, but I'd guess between 5 and 10) and then will end up having a miserable death alone in the Deep Roads. Warden tradition, yes, but still crappy (sucks to be a Warden, all things considered - hating the Deep Roads as much as I do, I hate to think of any of our Warden characters dying down there. It's so depressing ). If he dies killing the archdemon, he earns his redemption and is remembered as a hero.

Obviously, anyone doesn't like Loghain, then the redeemer ending isn't going to appeal all that much. It's my personal favourite, however.

Well and I also think, due to the information an MC can gather from Loghain--it's the most satisfying ending all around if the player wants to understand the characters and the plot in a detailed way.

[nos_astra]

Swifty wrote...
Well and I also think, due to the information an MC can gather from Loghain--it's the most satisfying ending all around if the player wants to understand the characters and the plot in a detailed way.

You mean, if the player wants to play the game right.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Well and I also think, due to the information an MC can gather from Loghain--it's the most satisfying ending all around if the player wants to understand the characters and the plot in a detailed way.

You mean, if the player wants to play the game right.

Heh.  I think as people get numerous playthroughs as many of us now have, you develop a kind of "canon" ending that you think is the right one.  Seeing as how I see people on the forums cite very different endings as their canon, I don't believe there is one right one.  Not until the devs give us theirs.

I do remember reading a David Gaider post that said a Loghain redemption ending is his most satisfying.  I hope that doesn't mean he hates Alistair, since it requires Alistair to marry Anora in order to stay alive and well, and to me that seems like a rather unhappy fate for the guy. 

My canon is a HNF PC marrying Alistair, keeping Zevran at court, and awaiting the demon-baby of Damocles to show himself.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 mars 2010 - 08:29 .

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Well and I also think, due to the information an MC can gather from Loghain--it's the most satisfying ending all around if the player wants to understand the characters and the plot in a detailed way.

You mean, if the player wants to play the game right.

Heh.  I think as people get numerous playthroughs as many of us now have, you develop a kind of "canon" ending that you think is the right one.  Seeing as how I see people on the forums cite very different endings as their canon, I don't believe there is one right one.  Not until the devs give us theirs.

I do remember reading a David Gaider post that said a Loghain redemption ending is his most satisfying.  I hope that doesn't mean he hates Alistair, since it requires Alistair to marry Anora in order to stay alive and well, and to me that seems like a rather unhappy fate for the guy. 

My canon is a HNF PC marrying Alistair, keeping Zevran at court, and awaiting the demon-baby of Damocles to show himself.

Personally I think Alistair can do reasonably well with Anora. Anora seems to have been geninly fond of Cailan and later claims that Alistair is not unlike Cailan and that this is not a bad thing. Then again in my canon ending I don't play a character who wants alistair for himself...

[Swifty]

klarabella wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Well and I also think, due to the information an MC can gather from Loghain--it's the most satisfying ending all around if the player wants to understand the characters and the plot in a detailed way.

You mean, if the player wants to play the game right.

It's not about "right" and "wrong". I've played it both ways so please, don't attribute things I didn't say.

It's about how much plot line a player may want to uncover or what sort of characters a player wants to RPG.

[Swifty]

Xandurpein wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Well and I also think, due to the information an MC can gather from Loghain--it's the most satisfying ending all around if the player wants to understand the characters and the plot in a detailed way.

You mean, if the player wants to play the game right.

Heh.  I think as people get numerous playthroughs as many of us now have, you develop a kind of "canon" ending that you think is the right one.  Seeing as how I see people on the forums cite very different endings as their canon, I don't believe there is one right one.  Not until the devs give us theirs.

I do remember reading a David Gaider post that said a Loghain redemption ending is his most satisfying.  I hope that doesn't mean he hates Alistair, since it requires Alistair to marry Anora in order to stay alive and well, and to me that seems like a rather unhappy fate for the guy. 

My canon is a HNF PC marrying Alistair, keeping Zevran at court, and awaiting the demon-baby of Damocles to show himself.

Personally I think Alistair can do reasonably well with Anora. Anora seems to have been geninly fond of Cailan and later claims that Alistair is not unlike Cailan and that this is not a bad thing. Then again in my canon ending I don't play a character who wants alistair for himself...

I suspect all the endings in their own ways are "canon" since they dovetail to some extent.

GWing Loghain means he dies anyway--either through jumping the dragon or dying of the taint--he's still just as dead. In fact, even Loghain points out the irony when he drinks the poison.

If we're looking at punishment here--the taint seems the most "vengeful" or "justified" [depending on one's viewpoint] way of killing him slowly.

I don't think it's about "hating" Alistair--he lives, gets the girl, maybe has a baby or two and his own kennel of mabaris to play fetch with. That's about hog heaven for Alistair.

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...

Personally I think Alistair can do reasonably well with Anora. Anora seems to have been geninly fond of Cailan and later claims that Alistair is not unlike Cailan and that this is not a bad thing. Then again in my canon ending I don't play a character who wants alistair for himself...

I do, too (and my canon ending is a character who wants Alistair mostly for herself). I just think that sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet is not the way to set Anora and Alistair on the path to happiness. Even if Loghain dies, Alistair is always going to resent him (and resent him even more than he would if it was a Landsmeet execution) and Anora is always going to hero-worship him (even more than she would otherwise). I think, for them to work. they need as clean a start as possible and with no PC having ever touched Alistair.

Also, the Dark Ritual will probably cause them some problems, if he sires Morrigan's demon-baby.

It's about how much plot line a player may want to uncover or what sort of characters a player wants to RPG.

Yes, but you keep implying that anyone who kills Loghain isn't digging as deeply into the plot as you since, if we were, we'd come out with your view on things. And that's not the case.

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...

I don't think it's about "hating" Alistair--he lives, gets the girl, maybe has a baby or two and his own kennel of mabaris to play fetch with. That's about hog heaven for Alistair.

You seem to be operating under a very shallow, frat-boy image of him.  Alistair wants to fall in love.  I mean, who doesn't, but Alistair is an idealist when it comes to love.  Even IF he grows fond of the woman he loathes, whose father he demanded be executed, and who will either struggle with him for power or treat him like a doormat (or both)... he will be right back where his father was.  Dreaming of a woman he couldn't have rather than the woman he was married to, sitting on a throne he is not sure he wants, watching others fight what seem like more important battles.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 mars 2010 - 09:08 .

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty wrote...

I don't think it's about "hating" Alistair--he lives, gets the girl, maybe has a baby or two and his own kennel of mabaris to play fetch with. That's about hog heaven for Alistair.

You seem to be operating under a very shallow, frat-boy image of him.  Alistair wants to fall in love.  I mean, who doesn't, but Alistair is an idealist when it comes to love.  Even IF he grows fond of the woman he loathes, whose father he demanded be executed, and who will either struggle with him for power or treat him like a doormat (or both)... he will be right back where his father was.  Dreaming of a woman he couldn't have rather than the woman he was married to, sitting on a throne he is not sure he wants, watching others fight what seem like more important battles.

Depends on which way you play it. If the MC doesn't have an affair with him he looks forward to the marriage. He tells you he thinks she's beautiful.

I agree that killing Loghain on the spot would most surely would put a dint in any happiness he'd ever have with Anora. She's a vengeful sort. Can't even blame her really. For all his flaws, Loghain was a good father.

My future worry for Alistair isn't personal [unless one kills Loghain for him]--it's political. She approves of GWing Loghain. It's Alistair that hates the idea.

Of course he'd let Anora run his life. He lets the MC run his life. He out and out tells Morrigan he hates to lead. Some men prefer their wives to lead. Personally for him, that's not so much of a problem. Politically? The Bannorn would turn him into Mabari chow before the MC even gets two miles out of town to the pub for a celebratory chugging contest.

Modifié par Swifty, 11 mars 2010 - 09:21 .

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...
Depends on which way you play it. If the MC doesn't have an affair with him he looks forward to the marriage. He tells you he thinks she's beautiful.

I'd have to hear that in context to believe Alistair is looking forward to marrying her!  If he is, that is certainly a big change from his reaction to the idea of marrying her.

I agree that killing Loghain on the spot would most surely would put a dint in any happiness he'd ever have with Anora. She's a vengeful sort. Can't even blame her really. For all his flaws, Loghain was a good father.

It's debatable how good a father he was.  Look how he used Anora in the end.  And he barely raised her as a child.  I don't doubt that he did love her, and she certainly revered him, or Ferelden would not be in the mess it's in.  As for Alistair, he wants Loghain to be executed regardless of whether you actually do it or not.

My future worry for Alistair isn't personal [unless one kills Loghain for him]--it's political. She approves of GWing Loghain. It's Alistair that hates the idea.

Of course he'd let Anora run his life. He lets the MC run his life. He out and out tells Morrigan he hates to lead. Some men prefer their wives to lead. Personally for him, that's not so much of a problem. Politically? The Bannorn would turn him into Mabari chow before the MC even gets two miles out of town to the pub for a celebratory chugging contest.

You're listening to Loghain too much.    Hardened Alistair is not weak, and any form of King Alistair is a popular ruler.  I also advise you to give him a few disparaging replies in a romance to find out if he doesn't mind being disrespected by a woman.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 mars 2010 - 12:04 .

[Herr Uhl]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Depends on which way you play it. If the MC doesn't have an affair with him he looks forward to the marriage. He tells you he thinks she's beautiful.

I'd have to hear that in context to believe Alistair is looking forward to marrying her!  If he is, that is certainly a big change from his reaction to the idea of marrying her.

I don't remember him jumping at the proposition. Might have been since he was unhardened and bummed out at becoming king when I did it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]Swifty wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]Swifty wrote...

Depends on which way you play it. If the MC doesn't have an affair with him he looks forward to the marriage. He tells you he thinks she's beautiful.

[/quote]

Uh, that was his pissed off rant, he was being quite sarcastic there. That's after you've spared Loghain and made him marry Anora.

He was not looking forward to it at all. He was being quite bitter about it, actually. And the conversation is the same if you've romanced him, as well.

And in that playthrough, my dwarf had never romanced him at all, had very low approval with him. No matter how you play it, Alistair is FAR from happy to be pushed into a marriage with Anora, no matter who you play. In fact, I consider the cruelest ending possible for Alistair is to spare Loghain, make him marry Anora, then have Loghain do the ritual so he lives. Alistair's personal life is guaranteed to be a nightmare.

[Sarah1281]

Actually, if Loghain dies and hardened Alistair gets engaged to Anora, when you congratulate him he says that he can think of worse things than being King and engaged to a beautiful woman. But yeah, he does say it mockingly when Loghain lives because he won't be able to seperate the two in his mind.