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[rak72]

I don't think the Bannorn would be so quick to chew up, and spit out Alistair. He took on the great hero Logain, saved the country from the blight, killed an arch demon - he's obviously not a man to be trifled with.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Actually, if Loghain dies and hardened Alistair gets engaged to Anora, when you congratulate him he says that he can think of worse things than being King and engaged to a beautiful woman. But yeah, he does say it mockingly when Loghain lives because he won't be able to seperate the two in his mind.

Never got that line. The one time I did a quick playthrough and sacrificed Loghain, all I got was that he was happy Loghain did something useful, and that if Anora thought he was gonna roll over and play dead, she was in for some serious disappointments.

[Sarah1281]

That's if you killed Loghain at the Landsmeet. He's much less hostile then because even if he does have to be King, he got what he wanted in regads to Loghain, even though he didn't get to do the deed himself.

[Xandurpein]

I definitely agree that if Alistair and Anora are to have any chance at happiness together, and I still think they do actually, then Loghain needs to be dead and out of the way, preferably by the player's sword at the Landsmeet. That way Alistair might come to terms with the futility of vengeance while Anora don't get too much room to indulge in hero worship of Loghain.

[Swifty]

rak72 wrote...


I don't think the Bannorn would be so quick to chew up, and spit out Alistair. He took on the great hero Logain, saved the country from the blight, killed an arch demon - he's obviously not a man to be trifled with.

First off, Alistair was only part of the MC's team that takes out Loghain--he's not even the leader of the team. If you GW Loghain, Alistair does not kill an archdemon--the MC or Loghain do while he's moping. Quite literally, moping.

Hopefully Alistair grows into the role. Going on his past behaviour, depending on how the MC plays it--it could be questionable whether he has the maturity or learns the traits needed to fill in the kingly role.

I've always rather taken the idea that Alistair's problems aren't with Anora insurmountable simply because he's happy around strong women and doesn't mind them having headway. The bannorn, depending on how much he grows, could be a serious problem.

[Masticetobbacco]

Swifty wrote...

Then it's obvious you didn't listen to half of what was going on in the story regardless of whether or not you executed Loghain.

As for redemption--there are a number of characters in the game who commit murder before being recruited to the GW. Perhaps their characters should just die before the plot begins?

ive played through the redeemer ending, and I have concluded Loghain simply does not deserve to redeem himself. Yea sure the grey wardens will recruit anyone including murderers, but this man caused a civil war, and wasted time and lives that could have been used against the darkspawn on a national scale. On top of that, his personality is one of being a douche about everything.

[rak72]

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rak72 wrote...


I don't think
the Bannorn would be so quick to chew up, and spit out Alistair. He
took on the great hero Logain, saved the country from the blight,
killed an arch demon - he's obviously not a man to be trifled with.

First off, Alistair was only part of the MC's team that takes out Loghain--he's not even the leader of the team. If you GW Loghain, Alistair does not kill an archdemon--the MC or Loghain do while he's moping. Quite literally, moping.

Hopefully
Alistair grows into the role. Going on his past behaviour, depending on
how the MC plays it--it could be questionable whether he has the
maturity or learns the traits needed to fill in the kingly role.

I've
always rather taken the idea that Alistair's problems aren't with Anora
insurmountable simply because he's happy around strong women and
doesn't mind them having headway. The bannorn, depending on how much he
grows, could be a serious problem.

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If the stroy plays out where Logain is taken care of, the Bannorn will see the GW's as their saviors.  The non GW's were part of the team, but the 2 GW's will be the heros.  I don't think they will care much if it was th MC or Allistair who decided wether or not to go to Redcliff first.

If the story plays out where Al is mopping in the bar, then it does not matter what the Bannorn think of him

[Sarah1281]

If the stroy plays out where Logain is taken care of, the Bannorn will see the GW's as their saviors. The non GW's were part of the team, but the 2 GW's will be the heros. I don't think they will care much if it was th MC or Allistair who decided wether or not to go to Redcliff first.



If the story plays out where Al is mopping in the bar, then it does not matter what the Bannorn think of him

What about the ending when Alistair is King married to Anora but Loghain lived through the Landsmeet so the entire Bannorn saw him throw a hissy fit about lettng Loghain into the GW, resigning publically from the GW, and then sulking somewhere until the fighting is over while Loghain proved that if nothing else he's always willing to defend his country from an attack?

[rak72]

If the stroy plays out where Logain is
taken care of, the Bannorn will see the GW's as their saviors. The non
GW's were part of the team, but the 2 GW's will be the heros. I don't
think they will care much if it was th MC or Allistair who decided
wether or not to go to Redcliff first.



If the story plays out where Al is mopping in the bar, then it does not matter what the Bannorn think of him

What
about the ending when Alistair is King married to Anora but Loghain
lived through the Landsmeet so the entire Bannorn saw him throw a hissy
fit about lettng Loghain into the GW, resigning publically from the GW,
and then sulking somewhere until the fighting is over while Loghain
proved that if nothing else he's always willing to defend his country
from an attack?
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Yea, there is no was Al looks good in that scenario, but, the point is  - if  you're a person that worries you need to keep The Mac Tirs around because Al is too weak, that is not the case.  Without the Mac Tirs in the picture, Al looks like the big hero.

Secondary point (which is basicly stating the obvious), any character can come out looking like the big hero, or the big chump, just depends how you play the game.

[rak72]

How do you make the little boxes around what you're quoting?

[Sarah1281]

You mean putting the word quote in brackets in front of the quote and then putting a / before the word quote in brackets at the end?

[rak72]

[quote]You mean putting the word quote in brackets in front of the quote and then putting a / before the word quote in brackets at the end?/[quote]



I think that is what I mean, I'll see if it worked after I hit submit

[rak72]

Yeay, it worked - thanks

[Addai]

Forgive me if I still don't think this (Alistair after Loghain sacrifice to archdemon) sounds like a man who's set up for a happy marriage.

[SurelyForth]

Re: The fit at the Landsmeet

I don't think what Alistair does is actually the definition of a "fit". The points he makes are totally valid (his response to Riordan that Loghain had the Wardens hunted like animals, his response to the PC how Loghain failed at Ostagar) and he's being resolute, not whiny or even hysterical. I don't see why people condemn him when he finally uses his voice since nothing he says is untrue nor is him asking for the throne out of line (since he's still deferring to you and it is, technically, his anyway). Loghain also freaks out and goes completely irrational at several points during the Landsmeet and Anora can be just as bloodthirsty if you choose her over Alistair when you spare Loghain and yet Alistair, who is watching his comrade reject him for the man responsible for the death of the rest of their order, is held to an incredibly exacting standard of decorum.    

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 mars 2010 - 07:48 .

[CalJones]

Addai67 - he's less angry if you stay with the wardens (I'm not sure what option/boon that player chose - he said sticking around so I'm assuming they opted to stay in Denerim). He is still pretty sulky but I'd assume he'd get over it. If he doesn't then he's being a jackass.



SF - yes I understand your point. Difference is that we know Loghain isn't entirely rational (even Anora thinks he's beyond reason) and he's known for having a temper. I don't think even the most ardent Loghain apologist would think it's a good idea to leave him in charge at that point. What goes down at Landsmeet is the wake-up call he needs, which is why he appears to change if you recruit him.

Alistair, on the other hand, has always been so mild mannered - he's either crying on your shoulder over Duncan or cracking jokes in order to deflect questions. When he suddenly voices an objection and will not back down, it comes from left of field. He has always deferred to you and listened to you up until that point, so it's somewhat hard to accept that he won't on this occassion.

Despite everything, I do like Alistair, but I also have great empathy for Loghain and I also feel that cutting off a man's head in front of his child is one of the most evil acts you can perform in the game (yes, that is only an opinion, but it's one I can't get past. That scene makes me *very* uncomfortable). So I have to deal with losing Alistair at that point. That he quits the Wardens - the organisation he professes to love - and at the point where he is needed more than ever - does feel like a kid throwing his toys out of the pram.

I do wish there was a way to reason with with Alistair, or even a way to spare Loghain without turning him into a warden so that Alistair could remain. However, due to a rather artificial gameplay decision, we are forced to choose between them. Alistair's reaction doesn't put him in a good light, unfortunately, and for me, turns him from a character I'm very fond of to one I don't like at all. It's a shame, and I wish it were not the case.

[Swifty]

CalJones wrote...

Addai67 - he's less angry if you stay with the wardens (I'm not sure what option/boon that player chose - he said sticking around so I'm assuming they opted to stay in Denerim). He is still pretty sulky but I'd assume he'd get over it. If he doesn't then he's being a jackass.

SF - yes I understand your point. Difference is that we know Loghain isn't entirely rational (even Anora thinks he's beyond reason) and he's known for having a temper. I don't think even the most ardent Loghain apologist would think it's a good idea to leave him in charge at that point. What goes down at Landsmeet is the wake-up call he needs, which is why he appears to change if you recruit him.
Alistair, on the other hand, has always been so mild mannered - he's either crying on your shoulder over Duncan or cracking jokes in order to deflect questions. When he suddenly voices an objection and will not back down, it comes from left of field. He has always deferred to you and listened to you up until that point, so it's somewhat hard to accept that he won't on this occassion.
Despite everything, I do like Alistair, but I also have great empathy for Loghain and I also feel that cutting off a man's head in front of his child is one of the most evil acts you can perform in the game (yes, that is only an opinion, but it's one I can't get past. That scene makes me *very* uncomfortable). So I have to deal with losing Alistair at that point. That he quits the Wardens - the organisation he professes to love - and at the point where he is needed more than ever - does feel like a kid throwing his toys out of the pram.
I do wish there was a way to reason with with Alistair, or even a way to spare Loghain without turning him into a warden so that Alistair could remain. However, due to a rather artificial gameplay decision, we are forced to choose between them. Alistair's reaction doesn't put him in a good light, unfortunately, and for me, turns him from a character I'm very fond of to one I don't like at all. It's a shame, and I wish it were not the case.

Isn't that the whole point of [dark] moral relatism as opposed to moral absolutism anyway? I suspect that's why the writer's have Alistair pull a 360 if Loghain is spared. Any decision, going any way is painful.

And if one talks to Anora she says Alistair is moping and acting as childish as Cailin, several different times after Loghain is recruited. Plus the "adoring public" bit is very sarcastic.

Depending on my MC it can be morally reprehensible to kill Loghain in front of his child. His response is actually quite touching and she is horrified and grieving. When I put Alistair on the throne along I had less problem with it than when I married them. I'm about to slaughter my best friend's father in law in front of his daughter? Ugh. That vs. my best friend will give up his oaths and bail on me if I refuse to do it? No matter how you slice it--it's a hard call.

I believe the writers were trying to point out the reality that there are no perfect heroes and that includes Alistair--fangrrls or not.

Loghain sold adults into slavery [to keep them alive in his opinion, misguided but cruel nonetheless] yet Sten slaughtered Children. In moral absolutism we would have to execute him for that and Zevran for assassinating innocents.

In fact, if the MC was "lawful good"--there'd be no companion party at all other than Wynne and OghrenB)

[SurelyForth]

CalJones wrote...

Alistair, on the other hand, has always been so mild mannered - he's either crying on your shoulder over Duncan or cracking jokes in order to deflect questions. When he suddenly voices an objection and will not back down, it comes from left of field. He has always deferred to you and listened to you up until that point, so it's somewhat hard to accept that he won't on this occassion.

I do wish there was a way to reason with with Alistair, or even a way to spare Loghain without turning him into a warden so that Alistair could remain. However, due to a rather artificial gameplay decision, we are forced to choose between them. Alistair's reaction doesn't put him in a good light, unfortunately, and for me, turns him from a character I'm very fond of to one I don't like at all. It's a shame, and I wish it were not the case.

See, the fact that Alistair is so mild-mannered makes his reaction at the Landsmeet all the more...powerful? He's basically having the last thing in the world that matters to him defiled in front of his eyes and he's helpless to actually do anything about it because of the game mechanics. And I can get being annoyed that all of a sudden he's trying to override you but, from his perspective, you're making a huge mistake that he cannot suffer in silence.  

Sparing Loghain changes his personality for the worse, true, but I can't blame him. It's basically his worst nightmare- becoming king, marrying a woman he doesn't love, and watching someone he trusted trade him for a man he views as a traitor. Just because he has the potential to become bitter when his life is manhandled like that doesn't retroactively make him a bad person, it makes him a person who can be warped by life experience just like everyone else. 

[CalJones]

Yes, you're not wrong there. I always hope that he will get over it in time. It's a tough choice either way - risk hurting a friend or kill a man in front of his daughter. I'd find it a lot easier to live with the former than the latter. Feelings can heal, but you can't exactly stick a man's head back on.

[Addai]

CJ, if Loghain had had his way at the Landsmeet, you would have been executed in front of (potentially) your lover. Depending on circumstances, he had as his right-hand man the man who slaughtered your entire family (HN origin) and had the gall to announce Howe as Teyrn of Highever to your face, then has the gall at the Landsmeet to accuse you of murdering Howe when he should have come before a seneschal (just when was Loghain going to get around to calling a seneschal??)

Feudal politics is a tough business, and the fact that Anora is watching is her own choice. She even says that if the situation were reversed, Alistair would have his head lopped off. They would do the same to you and worse, so I don't get the overriding sympathy.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 mars 2010 - 06:51 .

[CalJones]

Just because someone is prepared to do something to you doesn't mean that it's good or right to do the same to them. I have my own moral code, just as everyone does, and that is one decision that doesn't sit right with me.

[Addai]

Fair enough, however I think you can see the decision in rational/pragmatic/survival terms and not only justice and vengeance as it is usually framed. There is no guarantee that sparing Loghain ends the civil war and you could be setting everyone up for another Ostagar.

P.S. It reminds me of the decision to leave Redcliffe in order to get the Circle's help with Connor.  You should do so expecting to come back and finding Redcliffe a smoking ruin.  I think one should spare Loghain expecting the same kind of paranoia and murderous trickery that he and Anora have been engaged in to continue.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 mars 2010 - 08:20 .