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[Default137]

Why was this bumped?

Gaider even said, the reason Loghain poisoned Eamon was because he was going to confront Cailan about his nativity/stupidity handling the Orlesians after Ostagar, and he knew Eamon would back up Cailan no matter what happened, so he had to get him out of the way somehow. He didn't try to kill him, and the poison wasn't fatal, just a means to get him out of the way for a month or two while he handled the Cailan situation, he never planned for Ostagar to end the way it did, and it ended up looking really bad for him, but realistically, he didn't want Eamon starting a civil war because of a huge dispute at a Landsmeet over Cailans action.

As for Highever/Mage Tower, its been pointed out in game that Howe and Uldred acted alone in those situations, Howe was just going to say the Couslands were going to betray the crown after he killed them all, would have had Fergus executed, and then he would have been the new ruler of Highever, even without Loghains help, as for Uldred, he had been planning it far before Loghain, and used the Civil War as an excuse to start his attack.

And yes, Loghain did not want Ostagar to end the way it did, he says he wanted Cailan fighting with him, rather then at the front lines, if you save him, he mourns the troops that died, and he even mentions several times it was his own folly to not plan for a Blight, but really, nobody thought it was a real one, and Darkspawn get alot harder to fight during a Blight. He doesn't like what happened, but he did what he had to do to save the remaining forces. Really, the only thing Loghain is confirmed as doing is selling off the Alienage, and it fits his character, hes not a shining knight, he'll do whatever it takes to make sure Ferelden stays afloat, and if that involves him selling Elves to keep the Darkspawn and Eamon's men from overwhelming Denerim, the Elves will be getting shipped off by the boatload.

Modifié par Default137, 07 mars 2010 - 02:17 .

[darrylzero]

I didn't feel like the documents really explained it to my satisfaction, but I'll take another look.

[Vicious]

Gaider even said, the reason Loghain poisoned Eamon was because he was going to confront Cailan about his nativity/stupidity handling the Orlesians after Ostagar, and he knew Eamon would back up Cailan no matter what happened, so he had to get him out of the way somehow. He didn't try to kill him, and the poison wasn't fatal, just a means to get him out of the way for a month or two while he handled the Cailan situation, he never planned for Ostagar to end the way it did, and it ended up looking really bad for him, but realistically, he didn't want Eamon starting a civil war because of a huge dispute at a Landsmeet over Cailans action.

LOL. Sorry, but this is a case where the players think they know more about the story than the writers and developers.

Modifié par Vicious, 07 mars 2010 - 08:23 .

[MordantWastrel]

I'm surprised this thread is still going!



I do think it's clear that Loghain is not meant to be a cardboard cutout villain. I think that the story doesn't take advantage of what a complex character he is - it's easy to regard him as much more one-dimensional than he deserves unless you've read the novels and pay careful attention during the game. That's too bad, because he really is a great character. I definitely prefer keeping him in my party rather than Alistair!

[Swifty]

MordantWastrel wrote...

I'm surprised this thread is still going!

I do think it's clear that Loghain is not meant to be a cardboard cutout villain. I think that the story doesn't take advantage of what a complex character he is - it's easy to regard him as much more one-dimensional than he deserves unless you've read the novels and pay careful attention during the game. That's too bad, because he really is a great character. I definitely prefer keeping him in my party rather than Alistair!

I think Loghain is the best written character in the game, personally. He's conflicted, he's exhausted, he feels betrayed and he's making judgments based on that.

Frankly I'd have loved him for a romance option. It's clear he loves his daughter even though she betrays him by telling everyone [what a drama queen] that he had her kidnapped by Howe when clearly--he did not. He's absolutely shocked by the whole affair, obviously and I fail to see how anyone missed it.

I agree he was far underused, in many senses.

I also find it fascinating that such a character caused such intense reactions. I find it interesting that people will play characters that redeem blood mages, assassins, spies, templars, the chantry's holy wars, the mages being essentially slaves from childhood that can be "tranquilized"  or killed at a whim with no trial etc. yet find Loghain reprehensible.

Loghain at least has the excuse that he had a whole country to worry about.

I also find it a plot hole that Denerim elves are being sold as slaves in Howe's territory yet if Loghain was responsible it would be the policy all over the country yet no one knew about it happening elsewhere? Otherwise Loghain might have known, but it might not necessarily fall under his jursidiction. In fact it would be ANORA'S fault if we are being logical since Loghain is a general--he's not a politican that sets municipal or country-wide policy.

I'm not going on the books--I'm going on the information in the game. Bann Teagan confronts him and he bellows that they should be pulling together--so who is really starting the civil war? Rumours fly about what a big blue meanie he is by nobles who have an agenda in getting rid of him and his daughter so they can manipulate who gets the crown.

Yet his second-in-command still believes in him, cares about him and even if one persuades her that he's dangerous--she doesn't want him hurt.

He's damned by gossip--not facts.

We don't get anything much out of Loghain himself until we take him into the Gray Wardens and ask.

Actually I'm also going to check the landsmeet again and see *exactly* what Loghain says about the elves. If I recall correctly, he doesn't admit to selling them--he admits that he hasn't the money to protect the alienage due to the war. If that's accurate--he's not the guilty party here, Howe is. By ommission perhaps, but not commission. We find no documents he signed proving he authorized it.

Okay, listened again.

Loghain claims he doesn't have the money to fix the alienage from the riots and if the darkspawn over run it--it's become indefensible. He neither admits to actual slave selling, nor does he deny it.

Modifié par Swifty, 08 mars 2010 - 06:54 .

[CalJones]

I agree with much of what you say but unfortunately you *do* find slavery documents with his signature on them. Howe most certainly suggested it (the Alienage falls under his jurisdiction) but Loghain went with it. Since the Alienage had been torn by riots and was rife with disease, then he no doubt thought it was a lost cause, and with the war chest empty, selling the elves probably seemed like a good way to get at least something out of a bad situation. However, he did agree to it - that's something even the most ardent Loghain apologist can't get around.



The main problem (if you see it as such) is that Loghain has been set up to appear as the major villain for much of the game. It's classic misdirection. (Obviously the archdemon is the actual villain, along with the horde - but you can't get a lot of character development from those guys). He's a lot more complex than that, but some players can't seem to get past the first impression.



The thing that annoys me, more than anything, is that there's never any opportunity to have a conversation with Alistair, or Bann Teagan, or Eamon where you can express doubt that Loghain's as big a villain as Alistair assumes he is. If you met him at Ostagar he seemed like a reasonable sort of fellow who wasn't so full of self-importance that he wouldn't leave his tent to talk to a lowly recruit. And when you wake up at Flemeth's, the only thing you know is that he quit the field - you know for a fact you missed the signal to light the beacon, but since you couldn't have seen the battle from where you were, you don't know that Loghain leaving was the wrong thing to do. He's this epic war hero - surely if he left, he must have had good reason? Yet the game never once lets you question this, and that annoys me a lot. It's all "Loghain betrayed the king - he must pay!" Bah, it makes me grumpy just thinking about it.

[Swifty]

CalJones wrote...

I agree with much of what you say but unfortunately you *do* find slavery documents with his signature on them.

I never found any documents so I can't comment here. I suspect it's because I never killed the slaver mage.  This time around I will since I'm playing a 2h.

It's plausible and makes me wonder if Loghain would justify it under the belief that the elves might survive slavery but not the darkspawn.

I also find it interesting that when you bring this up at the landsmeet--it doesn't sway the nobles. It helps them damn him yet they don't actually support the Warden's position. Intriguing way to write it, I thought.

Howe most certainly suggested it (the Alienage falls under his jurisdiction) but Loghain went with it. Since the Alienage had been torn by riots and was rife with disease, then he no doubt thought it was a lost cause, and with the war chest empty, selling the elves probably seemed like a good way to get at least something out of a bad situation. However, he did agree to it - that's something even the most ardent Loghain apologist can't get around.

I wonder if he thought, since he couldn't protect them, that they might be better off elsewhere? Anyway he never says that so I'll just assume he's rather embarrassed by the whole fiasco, for the moment.

The main problem (if you see it as such) is that Loghain has been set up to appear as the major villain for much of the game. It's classic misdirection. (Obviously the archdemon is the actual villain, along with the horde - but you can't get a lot of character development from those guys). He's a lot more complex than that, but some players can't seem to get past the first impression.

Absolutely. For those who see in terms of black and white--it's hard to get past Loghain's obvious failings and see that he's not completely Machivellian, paranoid or otherwise "disturbed".

The thing that annoys me, more than anything, is that there's never any opportunity to have a conversation with Alistair, or Bann Teagan, or Eamon where you can express doubt that Loghain's as big a villain as Alistair assumes he is.


If you met him at Ostagar he seemed like a reasonable sort of fellow who wasn't so full of self-importance that he wouldn't leave his tent to talk to a lowly recruit.

Actually with a persuade you can get his master-at-arms outside the tent to talk to you. Cailin's guard tells you that the king is off boozing with the Wardens. Loghain is busy working. Who cares about the country? Rest my case, right there.

On top of  that--Ser Cauthrain [is that her name?] pretty much thinks he walks on water--she's not angry, she's concerned.

The lack of options to discuss *why* Loghain might be more practical as a leader than Alistair never comes up. In fact, Alistair is about the last qualified person to lead an army or a kingdom, in the whole game--for anyone thinking strategically about the future, that is.

And when you wake up at Flemeth's, the only thing you know is that he quit the field - you know for a fact you missed the signal to light the beacon,

This is my whole point about Alistair and his lack of maturity. He assumes Loghain is the villian because the MC and him were late and he can't live with the guilt. He spends the rest of the game either grieving or blaming Loghain without once shrugging his shoulders [as my MC did] and realizing that sometimes, **** happens. If one plays the game and doesn't let Alistairs cutesy charm get in the way--it looks very, very different.

but since you couldn't have seen the battle from where you were, you don't know that Loghain leaving was the wrong thing to do. He's this epic war hero - surely if he left, he must have had good reason? Yet the game never once lets you question this, and that annoys me a lot. It's all "Loghain betrayed the king - he must pay!" Bah, it makes me grumpy just thinking about it.

Also, folks are going on what they *think* was said due to their own perceptions and what actually IS said. Several times Arl Eamon talks about his respect for Loghain until Bann Teagon keeps bringing up how nutty Loghain is.

Well yes and the tolerance of moral ambiguity is the sign of maturity. It's my main problem with putting Alistair on the throne, at all. Yes, he'll run around saving stray puppies and pulling cats out of trees but he's not exactly full of fries in his happy meal, politically speaking. He's a great king's best buddy--he's not a good candidate to rule a tumultous nation that is only 30 years away from being conquored and a single mis-step away from the Banns bashing it out while the Orlesians or disciplined Bersaad stomp them into nug fodder.

When it comes down to it--Ser Cathrain puts it best, "If it wasn't for Loghain, you wouldn't have a Fereldon to protect." [which I think is the mark of a brilliant writer, she's pointing out the major flaws in everyone's arguement, in a nutshell]. That stopped me right in my tracks. If people stopped bumping her off for her good sword long enough to actually converse with her--she has real reasons to believe in Loghain and she's served with him practically since childhood. She also brings up another excellent point when she tells Alistair, "If you actually cared about your country and your duty you'd have been in the landsmeet long ago."--that stopped me dead in my tracks. She's right. It also made me question why Arl Eamon didn't bring Alister into the landsmeet as his adopted son, long before. What's his real agenda?

Also, if the Orlesians were running the country or sent troops, they'd simply flee home from the darkspawn, withdraw any troops [why should they pay for it?] and let the country die. That's a dictomy that Loghain is well aware of and trying desperately to prevent. Since he doesn't know about the GW treaties, he sees his troop power as extremely limited--and it's even less when the Lords all turn on him.

Something interesting I just noted on this playthrough was that the only place where Orlesian cheveliar armour/weapons show up is at Marjolaine's and in Arl Eamon's house. I wonder if that was deliberate? His wussy wife doesn't seem to be the mace-wielding sort.

It's rather like Arl Eamon and saving the mage kid, Connor. Alistair thinks this is such a bright spot yet hundreds of villagers and dozens of knights died over this noble family's inability to see that their actions impacted on other people. Loghain would have executed the kid on the spot and saved the lives of hundreds of villagers--not hoped some errant stranger might wander along to save the kid. Cruel yes--but is one nobleman's brat worth more than a whole village?

That is how Loghain thinks.

Eamon's trophy wife should be executed for murder or at least, negligent homicide yet she's off the hook here, completely. And then has the nerve to blame Jowan for her own failings. If I'd had the option to out-and-out execute her for murder, I'd have done it. That's not the choice. It's kill her and use Jowan the blood mage so she gets to sacrifice herself for her son, how sneeringly noble of her, or do the "right" thing and have Jowan kill the demon he never invited with the help of the circle for his redemption.

Yet Alistair finds a dead village vs. Eamon's wife's life a "happy ending". I was nauseated. If Eamon had any honour he'd have executed the wench, himself.

The underlying dictomy in this game is Alistair the noble-born sweetie guy vs. Loghain the hard self-made man who did everything on his own merit and sees the bigger picture.

Also, when it comes down to it--when you choose to GW Loghain you really see where the land lies with Alistair. He mopes and runs off, just like he did at the Chantry, the same childish behaviour he showed to Arl Eamon. He's a sweet fella--but he's a manchild who shirks his duties and responsibilities at every opportunity unless he's forced into the decision.

Somehow I can't imagine Loghain ever whining that Wynn should patch the hole in his shirt or Morrigan should cook.

Modifié par Swifty, 08 mars 2010 - 09:47 .

[Default137]

Vicious wrote...

Gaider even said, the reason Loghain poisoned Eamon was because he was going to confront Cailan about his nativity/stupidity handling the Orlesians after Ostagar, and he knew Eamon would back up Cailan no matter what happened, so he had to get him out of the way somehow. He didn't try to kill him, and the poison wasn't fatal, just a means to get him out of the way for a month or two while he handled the Cailan situation, he never planned for Ostagar to end the way it did, and it ended up looking really bad for him, but realistically, he didn't want Eamon starting a civil war because of a huge dispute at a Landsmeet over Cailans action.

LOL. Sorry, but this is a case where the players think they know more about the story than the writers and developers.

http://social.biowar...297&lf=8#590701

If your not going to actually read in to what happens in the game, and refuse to actually look at evidence, you probably shoudn't be posting in threads based around the lore of the game, especially when the devs have CONFIRMED this ****. Gaider says quite well in that thread why Loghain left Ostagar, and its just confirmed in game several times, it also explains why Eamon was poisoned pre-Ostagar, because Loghain was going to chew out Cailan at the Landsmeet, and wanted Eamon out of the way.

Honestly, these forums bother the hell out of me, there is tons of evidence both in game and from the devs painting a very clear picture as to exactly what happened, there are no loose ends, its very obvious, and everything fits together very well, with the devs even agreeing what happened. Then in every single thread you see 20 people going "LOGHAIN IS BAD HURP DURP, A WITCH WHO LIES ALOT TOLD ME SO, AND HE SMIRKED IN THAT CUTSCENE, I LOVE KILLING HIM CUZ HE'S EVIL LOLOLOLOLOLOL, NO U RONG, HE SMIRKED IN THAT CUTSCENE AFTER OSTAGAR HE BAD LOLOLOL"

Its infuriating.

Modifié par Default137, 08 mars 2010 - 10:18 .

[roundcrow]

Default137 wrote...

Honestly, these forums bother the hell out of me, there is tons of evidence both in game and from the devs painting a very clear picture as to exactly what happened, there are no loose ends, its very obvious, and everything fits together very well, with the devs even agreeing what happened. Then in every single thread you see 20 people going "LOGHAIN IS BAD HURP DURP, A WITCH WHO LIES ALOT TOLD ME SO, AND HE SMIRKED IN THAT CUTSCENE, I LOVE KILLING HIM CUZ HE'S EVIL LOLOLOLOLOLOL, NO U RONG, HE SMIRKED IN THAT CUTSCENE AFTER OSTAGAR HE BAD LOLOLOL"

Its infuriating.

This attitude also irritates me.  The man doesn't even have a mustache to twirl!  Someone should write a mod.

Loghain is one of the best characters I've ever encountered (and, for my sins, I've read a lot).  I haven't been able to put together all of the reasons he fascinates me, but I think the primary one is that I see myself in him - someone who is trying to protect something precious to him, but the world is more complicated, frustrating, and vague than "want to protect = protected".  

Oh, and he's really hot.

[CalJones]

Huzzah! Loghain supporters unite! Let's pelt those dastardly Alistair fans with rotten fruit!

[quote]Swifty wrote...

[quote]CalJones wrote...

If you met him at Ostagar he seemed like a reasonable sort of fellow who wasn't so full of self-importance that he wouldn't leave his tent to talk to a lowly recruit.

Actually with a persuade you can get his master-at-arms outside the tent to talk to you. Cailin's guard tells you that the king is off boozing with the Wardens. Loghain is busy working. Who cares about the country? Rest my case, right there.[/quote]

I think you missed my double negative. I was saying that he wasn't up himself, and that he would come and talk to you. (With persuade, naturally - you only need one rank in it though, and I'll always have that by the time I get past the origin).

[quote]Swifty wrote...
Also, folks are going on what they *think* was said due to their own perceptions and what actually IS said. Several times Arl Eamon talks about his respect for Loghain until Bann Teagon keeps bringing up how nutty Loghain is.
[/quote]

Yes, I want to give Teagan a dry slap at that point. But then I suppose he assumes the worst because of the whole Jowan poisoning business. Loghain can't really get out of that one either - even if the poisoning was only supposed to incapacitate the arl, not kill him.

[quote]Swifty wrote...
Also, when it comes down to it--when you choose to GW Loghain you really see where the land lies with Alistair. He mopes and runs off, just like he did at the Chantry, the same childish behaviour he showed to Arl Eamon. He's a sweet fella--but he's a manchild who shirks his duties and responsibilities at every opportunity unless he's forced into the decision.

Somehow I can't imagine Loghain ever whining that Wynn should patch the hole in his shirt or Morrigan should cook.
[/quote]

Yes, I suppose it's because I'm older that the cute and funny act doesn't charm me as much as it should. A strong woman needs a strong man, and the helpless puppy act gets old fast. Sure, you can harden him, but it doesn't improve his attitude all that much. His reactions have made me pretty angry on several occassion (not just in relation to Loghain, either).
 

[Swifty]

roundcrow wrote...

Default137 wrote...

This attitude also irritates me.  The man doesn't even have a mustache to twirl!  Someone should write a mod.

Loghain is one of the best characters I've ever encountered (and, for my sins, I've read a lot).  I haven't been able to put together all of the reasons he fascinates me, but I think the primary one is that I see myself in him - someone who is trying to protect something precious to him, but the world is more complicated, frustrating, and vague than "want to protect = protected".  

Oh, and he's really hot.

Yes, Loghain is hot, I'll give him that. He's [a word I coined in a novel] Healthcliffian.

Here's where the land lies IMO.

People hate Loghain because he piffed off their character personally. Like Alistair they have built a character with the inability to see beyond their own personal vengence agenda.

Notice that Alistair does not want to be king until he's convinced Loghain will take it away? That is how children think--not mature men.

Loghain's agenda isn't even vengence against the Orlesians or he would have banned them outright from living in Fereldon.

Loghain's been a father, he's raised a child. He's done right by that child.

When I played a young female City Elf--Alistair betrayed her. In a number of ways. But she did what was right in her own opinion to give her people a better lot in life and ignored the betrayal--that is what "good" people in power are forced to do--put their own agenda aside for the greater good. It is actually a trait of Loghain when you make him a GW, it's something Alistair fails to understand.

Seeing Alister as the good guy and Loghain as purely evil is not how someone who is responsible for an entire country's existance would view the political situation. When I built a mature Mage character--that was when I saw the outcome very differently. Even as a gay Dalish--Alister was just plain grating.

He's one of those guys that if you're dating them seem okay but you'd worry about your friend if she was dating him:?

[Swifty]

What I don't get is why Loghain would get a blood mage to poison Eamon at all? Why not get an Antivan Crow? They're the assassin masters. Obviously as has been stated--he just wanted him out of the way--not dead. And what did he offer Jowan? Freedom?



Is that "wrong"? In a land full of assassins, blood mages, reavers, spies, traitors, back stabbers and assorted other morally ambiguous characters who wouldn't think twice about assassinating someone in their sleep, somehow making them sick for a month seems to pale in comparison.



I don't think Loghain's a saint--he's a hard man, no doubt but he is complex and the only truly adult male on the warden's team and I suspect that's the fascination with him.



Winning Loghain's trust is a lot more complex than winning Alistair's "will you be my mommy?" trust.

[roundcrow]

Swifty wrote...

Yes, Loghain is hot, I'll give him that. He's [a word I coined in a novel] Healthcliffian.

Yes on the cultural meaning, but Heathcliff (or Healthcliff?  Perhaps in the novel Wulthering Heights?) is an epic douche, whereas Loghain is not.

[Swifty]

"Heathcliffian" meaning dark, brooding and abrasive--not necessarily evil;)

Hey, I'm one of the people who does not see Loghain as "evil", remember?

Would you prefer Byronesque? Except Loghain isn't the hero.

Modifié par Swifty, 09 mars 2010 - 12:44 .

[Default137]

Swifty wrote...

"Heathcliffian" meaning dark, brooding and abrasive--not necessarily evil;)

Hey, I'm one of the people who does not see Loghain as "evil", remember?

Would you prefer Byronesque? Except Loghain isn't the hero.

He might be considering what Cailan was about to do.

[Swifty]

Whatever Cailin was about to do?



All I know from the game is that Cailin is about to possibly bump off half the army from sheer stupidity and the search for glory but if there's more --do tell! [oh yeah and invite 200 Orlesian wardens]

[Default137]

Swifty wrote...

Whatever Cailin was about to do?

All I know from the game is that Cailin is about to possibly bump off half the army from sheer stupidity and the search for glory but if there's more --do tell! [oh yeah and invite 200 Orlesian wardens]

Do you have Return to Ostagar?

Between what Gaider told us ( Cailan was smooching up to the Orlesians before Ostagar ), and the notes we get during RtO, as well as Arl Foreshadow, its really really implied that Cailan was either having an affair with the Empress of Orlais, or was going to hand over Ferelden to Orlais.

Basically bunch of notes between Cailan ad Celen, starting off formal, but by the end where along the lines of "Cailan, I wish you well at the next battle, and hopefully its all over we can discuss our nations future....together, in private."

Not confirmed, but yeah, its implied.

Modifié par Default137, 09 mars 2010 - 01:31 .

[Swifty]

Ah okay and no, I'm just going on Cailin's possible stupidity in DA:O. Alistair and him are so much alike [Anora mentions this] I wouldn't trust Fereldon's future to either of them.



If you think about it for a sec--It kinda fits in the Loghain thing.



Cailin/Alistair/Eamon/Nobles/etc are loyal to the *crown.*



Loghain, the commoner, is loyal to *Fereldon*.

[Morroian]

Oh god, once more into the breach:

Default137 wrote...
If your not going to actually read in to what happens in the game, and refuse to actually look at evidence, you
probably shoudn't be posting in threads based around the lore of the game, especially when the devs have CONFIRMED this ****. Gaider says quite well in that thread why Loghain left Ostagar, and its just confirmed in game several times, it also explains why Eamon was poisoned pre-Ostagar, because Loghain was going to chew out Cailan at the Landsmeet, and wanted Eamon out of the way.

Gaider says: "You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable
whether that can be taken as truth, after all." He's right, most of what Gaider says about Loghains intentions etc. are
not actually in the game. They may be his opinion but unless they were put in the game its almost irrelevant.
He also says "I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison." If its not
in the game why should I take it as truth in the game?

Swifty wrote...
Absolutely. For those who see in terms of black and white--it's hard to get past Loghain's obvious failings and see that he's not completely Machivellian, paranoid or otherwise "disturbed".

Not completely maybe but certainly he is disturbed to the point of making irrational decisions. And yes I agree after reading what Gaider said about his opinion on Loghain that I would have liked more of options to question Loghain's intentions.

One further thing you Loghain supporters may be sick of others casting aspertions on your opinions but why do the same to those of us who thought he deserved to be executed ie. your statement above about black and white thinking.

Swifty wrote...
It also made me question why Arl Eamon didn't bring Alister into the landsmeet as his adopted son, long before.What's his real agenda?

His real agenda? Are you serious? He was keeping the kings bastard hidden as Maric wanted. Honestly its quite funny to see people jumping through hoops to excuse Loghain but not jumping through the same hoops to excuse others such as Eamonn who's only crime seemingly is to support Cailan.

roundcrow wrote...
Loghain is one of the best characters I've ever encountered (and, for my sins, I've read a lot). I haven't been able to put together all of the reasons he fascinates me, but I think the primary one is that I see myself in him - someone who is trying to protect something precious to him, but the world is more complicated, frustrating, and vague than "want to protect = protected".

Well put but it doesn't absolve him of responsibility for his crimes.

Swifty wrote...
People hate Loghain because he piffed off their character personally. Like Alistair they have built a character with the inability to see beyond their own personal vengence agenda.

Oh yeah we fail to see him selling elves into slavery, to see him in league with someone torturing and killing others who's only crime is to support Cailan, to see him trying to trying to bring down the only organisation with experience against the blight, to see him abandoning the king, to see him instigate a civil war in the face of the blight, to see him in league with blood mages leading to wholesale slaughter in the tower..........

Swifty wrote...
Notice that Alistair does not want to be king until he's convinced Loghain will take it away? That is how children think--not mature men.

Alistair is exactly like Maric with the ability to become a similar king.

Swifty wrote...
All I know from the game is that Cailin is about to possibly bump off half the army from sheer stupidity and the search for glory but if there's more --do tell! [oh yeah and invite 200 Orlesian wardens]

It was Loghain's plan. Cailan wanted to wait for the Orlesian and GW reinforcements. Cailan's only crime was to want to fight on the front line.

Default137 wrote...
Between what Gaider told us ( Cailan was smooching up to the Orlesians before Ostagar ), and the notes we get during RtO, as well as Arl Foreshadow, its really really implied that Cailan was either having an affair with the Empress of Orlais, or was going to hand over Ferelden to Orlais.

Basically bunch of notes between Cailan ad Celen, starting off formal, but by the end where along the lines of "Cailan, I wish you well at the next battle, and hopefully its all over we can discuss our nations future....together, in private."

Not confirmed, but yeah, its implied.

Not really, its an interpretation. Its not implied nearly as heavily as you're saying above.

Modifié par Morroian, 09 mars 2010 - 04:15 .

[Default137]

Morroian wrote...

Oh god, once more into the breach:

Default137 wrote...
If your not going to actually read in to what happens in the game, and refuse to actually look at evidence, you
probably shoudn't be posting in threads based around the lore of the game, especially when the devs have CONFIRMED this ****. Gaider says quite well in that thread why Loghain left Ostagar, and its just confirmed in game several times, it also explains why Eamon was poisoned pre-Ostagar, because Loghain was going to chew out Cailan at the Landsmeet, and wanted Eamon out of the way.

Gaider says: "You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all." He's right, most of what Gaider says about Loghains intentions etc. are not actually in the game. They may be his opinion but unless they were put in the game its almost irrelevant.He also says "I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison." If its not in the game why should I take it as truth in the game?

Default137 wrote...
Between what Gaider told us ( Cailan was smooching up to the Orlesians before Ostagar ), and the notes we get during RtO, as well as Arl Foreshadow, its really really implied that Cailan was either having an affair with the Empress of Orlais, or was going to hand over Ferelden to Orlais.

Basically bunch of notes between Cailan ad Celen, starting off formal, but by the end where along the lines of "Cailan, I wish you well at the next battle, and hopefully its all over we can discuss our nations future....together, in private."

Not confirmed, but yeah, its implied.

Not really, its an interpretation. Its not implied nearly as heavily as you're saying above.

Its actually implied quite heavily if you bring Loghain, as he mentions Cailans indiscretions, and says that Cailan had been acting odd, as I said, its nothing but an implication right now, but everything is implying a specific way, and saying its not implying that at all is well, turning a blind eye/stubborness is being light.

As for evidence being in the game, do you really want me to do this?

Loghain mentions he couldn't have reached Cailan. Wynne confirms.

He mentions if Anora was where Cailan was, he still would have had to let her die. Which is pretty amazing considering when questioned by Shale he admits he loves her more then Ferelden, and would not kill her even knowing that if he had, he would have been able to control the country fully.

Wynne mentions the Mages left the field, and then later admits without the Mages, Loghain couldn't have reached Cailan.

Loghain tells Cailan to not fight on the front lines. Obviously a plot to kill him amirite.

Loghain tells you that he retreated because he didn't want the ENTIRE army to end up dead, mainly because of his obsession with Orlais, and his fear they would attack, but also because of the fact with no army, Ferelden would fall to anyone. He put his loyalty to his nation, not his king. He also tells Wynne to **** off, because he knew every man who fought at Ostagar, he knew their families, and in many cases, he knew them personally, and the fact he was forced to abandon them haunts him still.

Thats just off the top of my head, I could probably bring up much more if needbe.

Thats evidence thats IN THE GAME.

Now lets see what evidence we have against Loghain shall we?

Oh, he smirked at the Ostagar cutscene! OBVIOUSLY HE DID IT.

Oh, a witch who lies to everyone else, who kills her daughters, and wanted a reason to get her latest daughter more powerful before killing her told me so!

Oh, he came after the Gray Wardens! You know, the group that was sent to light the tower and failed to do so before the battle was already lost, which means THEY KILLED THE KING.

Yeah.

Modifié par Default137, 09 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[Swifty]

[quote]Morroian wrote...

Oh god, once more into the breach:


[quote]Swifty wrote...
Absolutely. For those who see in terms of black and white--it's hard to get past Loghain's obvious failings and see that he's not completely Machivellian, paranoid or otherwise "disturbed".
[/quote]
Not completely maybe but certainly he is disturbed to the point of making irrational decisions. And yes I agree after reading what Gaider said about his opinion on Loghain that I would have liked more of options to question Loghain's intentions.

One further thing you Loghain supporters may be sick of others casting aspertions on your opinions but why do the same to those of us who thought he deserved to be executed ie. your statement above about black and white thinking.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
It also made me question why Arl Eamon didn't bring Alister into the landsmeet as his adopted son, long before.What's his real agenda?
[/quote]
His real agenda? Are you serious? He was keeping the kings bastard hidden as Maric wanted.

Yes, what was his real agenda?  Eamon didn't even keep the child a secret nor did he take care of him with any of the respect you might give to a possible heir to the throne. At the whining of his Orlesian wife he promptly shipped the boy off to the chantry like an unwanted orphan where everyone thought he was Eamon's bastard instead of Maric's. Now that's a man with a sense of responsibility for his King's son! Now, twenty years later he pops Alistair out of hiding and says, "Look! Take my word for it folks--it's King Maric's boy and he should rule the land!"--and then try to say he has no personal or political agenda? That's simply laughable or bad writing and I don't think, given the quality of writing in this story that writing is the problem, here.

Honestly its quite funny to see people jumping through hoops to excuse Loghain but not jumping through the same hoops to excuse others such as Eamonn who's only crime seemingly is to support Cailan.

Eamon's only crime is to support Cailin? Oh and he's no accessory to his wife's crimes of killing hundreds of villagers and knights because she would not send her son to the [legal, much as I find it abominable] mage's tower? The boy could well have become an abomination without Jowan there at all due to her stupidity.

Yet they're still not even going to send the boy to the mages tower until after the war? Never mind taking no responsibility for what his wife has done? His wife?  Or the fact he knew so little about his own son he doesn't realize the kid is a mage? In his own house?

Yet you argue that Loghain is responsible for everything Howe did in a different location--where's the logic in that?



The fact he does not seek justice for those villagers because his wife and child are "more important nobles" is abominable.

[quote]roundcrow wrote...
Loghain is one of the best characters I've ever encountered (and, for my sins, I've read a lot). I haven't been able to put together all of the reasons he fascinates me, but I think the primary one is that I see myself in him - someone who is trying to protect something precious to him, but the world is more complicated, frustrating, and vague than "want to protect = protected".
[/quote]
Well put but it doesn't absolve him of responsibility for his crimes.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
People hate Loghain because he piffed off their character personally. Like Alistair they have built a character with the inability to see beyond their own personal vengence agenda.
[/quote]
Oh yeah we fail to see him selling elves into slavery,

Or leave them to die when the darkspawn overrun it. Your call. Even playing a city elf who killed Loghain, I still saw the warped logic in the choice between certain death and slavery. I didn't agree with it and killed him--but I got it. The difference was I knew very well that my vengence didn't relate to what was actually good for the country. As a city elf who had to rescue her father--I didn't care.

And why does nobody ever notice that the other nobles don't cast pro-Alistair votes based on the elf confrontation? They only cast their votes for Alistair when it has to do with something that affected their life, personally or their respective areas of control meaning--their tax base.

to see him in league with someone torturing and killing others who's only crime is to support Cailan,

Arl Eamon at the time is going against the law of the land for supporting the Gray Wardens since they are to be arrested on sight. Bluntly, that is treasonable. And you didn't notice his private little prison there in the basement while you were hanging with Jowan? With dead skeletons against the walls in chains? Or that when the MC is imprisoned in Drakon that there are torture racks? Or what Leliana says about the Orlesian guards? Or that his guards and wife did torture Jowan for information? Did this all escape your notice?

We don't know why Howe was torturing some noble's son. In fact, the son clearly states that his father is allied with Loghain and he is going to tell him to cut off that support. Watch the cutaway again and see what the young man says. Then when you tell the father you found his son--he says he will vote against Loghain in the Landsmeet. Up to that point, he's a Loghain supporter.

If you're going to argue that Loghain is morally reprehensible because of Howe's actions at least listen to what Howe's victims are saying.

Why would Loghain Tell Howe to commit an act that would cut off his own support system? He's not an idiot. Or is Howe clearly playing some kind of power game we don't know about?



As for the templar chasing Jowan--he's in lyrium withdrawal. He wasn't tortured. We don't even know why Howe captured him or kept him. Why not just blame the Templars or Chantry for addicting their soldiers to lyrium which they do quite deliberately?

Makes about as much sense as blaming Loghain for not knowing about what goes on in Howe's basement.

to see him trying to trying to bring down the only organisation with experience against the blight,

How can Loghain know about how the Gray Wardens bring down a blight other than dusty legends? Even the main character doesn't know why it takes a GW to kill an archdemon this until AFTER Loghain either joins, or does not.  The Orlesians are recent history to Loghain--not ancient legends.

to see him abandoning the king, to see him instigate a civil war in the face of the blight,

Watch the cutaway--Bann Teagon goes after Loghain and Loghain bellows back. Not the other way around. We don't have any proof in the game about who fired the first shot in a civil war. It's a deliberately ambiguous plot point.

The "local gossip guys" blather onwards throughout the game about this but gossip is not proof nor is it fact. Brilliant manipulation on the part of the writers but folks who argue that it is story fact, don't have any provable assertions to back up the claim.

to see him in league with blood mages leading to wholesale slaughter in the tower..........


The libertarian mages were trying to get rid of the Templars as overseers. They were joined by a secondary group that used to back the conservative mages. That rebellion, if you read the codexes was going on long before Loghain even spoke with Uldred. Never mind that if you read the note on the senior enchanter Irving's desk that Uldred's actual job was to tempt mages into corrupting and that he exceptionally good at it.

So Irving is more to blame than Loghain for that mess by not keeping a closer eye on Uldred. What could Loghain possibly gain from Uldred becoming an abomination?

While you're at it, if Fereldon has a drought--did Loghain make it stop raining?

[quote]Swifty wrote...
Notice that Alistair does not want to be king until he's convinced Loghain will take it away? That is how children think--not mature men.
[/quote]
Alistair is exactly like Maric with the ability to become a similar king.

He's exactly like Cailin--Anora talks about this a number of times. I think she'd know the difference. Loghain is the only one who tells you why Maric didn't accept Alistair--strictly politics because Maric knew the Orlesians would try to use Alistair to upset the hereditary throne line and in Loghain's opinion, it was what he believed Alistair or the GW's were doing when they crashed the landsmeet.

Much of the above is actually what happened in Wallechian history, as well. The more I look at Loghain/Maric the more I wonder if they actually based those problems in Fereldon on that kingdom's history.

The whole plot hangs together only if one sees Loghain as "gray"--if he's the bad guy--the plot has more holes than a bleached j-cloth.

[quote]Swifty wrote...
All I know from the game is that Cailin is about to possibly bump off half the army from sheer stupidity and the search for glory but if there's more --do tell! [oh yeah and invite 200 Orlesian wardens][/quote]

It was Loghain's plan. Cailan wanted to wait for the Orlesian and GW reinforcements. Cailan's only crime was to want to fight on the front line.

No, Loghain refused the Orlesians at the border and suggested Cailin wait for Fereldon reinforcements or withdraw. Cailin wanted Orlesian reinforcements--thus Loghain's problem with Cailin's plan.

[quote]Default137 wrote...
Between what Gaider told us ( Cailan was smooching up to the Orlesians before Ostagar ), and the notes we get during RtO, as well as Arl Foreshadow, its really really implied that Cailan was either having an affair with the Empress of Orlais, or was going to hand over Ferelden to Orlais.

I'm not including that in the discussion because I know nothing about it.

Modifié par Swifty, 09 mars 2010 - 04:00 .

[Masticetobbacco]

loghain is a ******************************* ********** *******************************

he purposely left Cailan to die just so HE HIMSELF could lead Ferelden. He didn't care about the good of Ferelden, he was being a selfish ****** and decided that the current king was terrible. This king was dealing with their old enemies, and Loghain isn't one to let his old hatred go.



He probably dug the hole at the tower at ostagar himself. He counted on the beacon NOT being lit so he could have used that as an excuse to abbandon Cailan and still preserve his honor But his plan got screwed over



Loghain does not deserve to redeem himself. He doesn't even deserve a proper burial. I would just dump him in the deep roads for his body to rot

[Swifty]

Its actually implied quite heavily if you bring Loghain, as he mentions Cailans indiscretions, and says that Cailan had been acting odd, as I said, its nothing but an implication right now, but everything is implying a specific way, and saying its not implying that at all is well, turning a blind eye/stubborness is being light.

As for evidence being in the game, do you really want me to do this?

Loghain mentions he couldn't have reached Cailan. Wynne confirms.

Check. Heard that.

He mentions if Anora was where Cailan was, he still would have had to let her die. Which is pretty amazing considering when questioned by Shale he admits he loves her more then Ferelden, and would not kill her even knowing that if he had, he would have been able to control the country fully.

Didn't have Shale 'til this time out. Will listen. Believable because he is utterly gaga over Anora--I had the "skinned knees" and "Kids scare ya" discussion with him. He was absolutely appalled at the kidnapping accusation.  Then he laughed and said Anora always had a flair for the dramatic.

Wynne mentions the Mages left the field, and then later admits without the Mages, Loghain couldn't have reached Cailan.

Yuppers, heard that. Actually the mages FLED the field. So who killed Cailin?

Loghain tells Cailan to not fight on the front lines. Obviously a plot to kill him amirite.

That's the plot point that has driven me nuts since my drive through this since game #1. If Loghain wanted him dead, why tell him "don't do it"?

Loghain tells you that he retreated because he didn't want the ENTIRE army to end up dead, mainly because of his obsession with Orlais, and his fear they would attack, but also because of the fact with no army, Ferelden would fall to anyone.

Add to that--the conversation with Sten that the Bersaad are planning to overtake Fereldon as well.

He put his loyalty to his nation, not his king. He also tells Wynne to **** off, because he knew every man who fought at Ostagar, he knew their families, and in many cases, he knew them personally, and the fact he was forced to abandon them haunts him still.

Yuppers. I confirm that conversation. I, in fact, burst into tears. If Wynn wasn't an NPC, she would have too.

Thats just off the top of my head, I could probably bring up much more if needbe.

Thats evidence thats IN THE GAME.

Now lets see what evidence we have against Loghain shall we?

Oh, he smirked at the Ostagar cutscene! OBVIOUSLY HE DID IT.

Actually I thought he looked fatigued and haunted.

Oh, a witch who lies to everyone else, who kills her daughters, and wanted a reason to get her latest daughter more powerful before killing her told me so!

Hey and sent her daughter to manipulate the main character throughout the entire game then get knocked up by a Grey Warden  so she could produce an Old God Mate--now there's a source of reliable information if ever there was one.

On that topic, in game when you ask Flemeth why Loghain would do that she says, "Who knows how much darkness lies in the hearts of men?" or suchlike. I do remember the answer was ambigous like it could be about the Warden and Alistair as much as about Loghain.

Oh, he came after the Gray Wardens! You know, the group that was sent to light the tower and failed to do so before the battle was already lost, which means THEY KILLED THE KING.

Yeah.

[/quote]

Well done.

One of my fav lines of Loghain's is, "It's easy to sacrifice oneself because it's over. It's more painful to send others to die then have to live with it."

Does that sound like something someone who had no regard for the lives of others would say?

Why is it that those arguing that Loghain is evil don't bother to play it through both ways then weigh the evidence?

I've killed him. I've had Alistair kill him. I've kept him alive. If nothing else, it gives one a more rounded view of the characters. I knew full well when I played a character that killed him  that the character was committing a vengeful, selfish and reprehensible act by not allowing him to be recruited. I knew full well when my character let Alistair kill him it was for Alistair's very same, selfish reasons and not for the good of Fereldon.

And frankly even when I killed him I found him to be one of the best written characters in the game.

[Swifty]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

loghain is a ******************************* ********** *******************************
he purposely left Cailan to die just so HE HIMSELF could lead Ferelden. He didn't care about the good of Ferelden, he was being a selfish ****** and decided that the current king was terrible. This king was dealing with their old enemies, and Loghain isn't one to let his old hatred go.

He probably dug the hole at the tower at ostagar himself. He counted on the beacon NOT being lit so he could have used that as an excuse to abbandon Cailan and still preserve his honor But his plan got screwed over

Loghain does not deserve to redeem himself. He doesn't even deserve a proper burial. I would just dump him in the deep roads for his body to rot

Then it's obvious you didn't listen to half of what was going on in the story regardless of whether or not you executed Loghain.

As for redemption--there are a number of characters in the game who commit murder before being recruited to the GW. Perhaps their characters should just die before the plot begins?

[Morroian]

[quote]Default137 wrote...
Its actually implied quite heavily if you bring Loghain, as he mentions Cailans indiscretions, and says that Cailan had been acting odd, as I said, its nothing but an implication right now, but everything is implying a specific way, and saying its not implying that at all is well, turning a blind eye/stubborness is being light.[/quote]
Loghain's word is hardly evidence. As for your last point I'm not saying Cailan wasn't planning something with the Orlesians just that it wasn't necessarily with Celene. The chief reason for divorcing Anora is that they can't have a child but Celene is hardly of child bearing age given that this is a medieval society. The warmth many people are ascribing to Celene's final note is not there to the extent they think it is IMHO.
[quote]Default137 wrote...
Loghain tells Cailan to not fight on the front lines. Obviously a plot to kill him amirite.

Loghain tells you that he retreated because he didn't want the ENTIRE army to end up dead, mainly because of his obsession with Orlais, and his fear they would attack, but also because of the fact with no army, Ferelden would fall to anyone. He put his loyalty to his nation, not his king. He also tells Wynne to **** off, because he knew every man who fought at Ostagar, he knew their families, and in many cases, he knew them personally, and the fact he was forced to abandon them haunts him still.[/quote]
I didn't say Loghain plotted to kill him but even Gaider says he had it in his head that he might have to. And regardless of what you said Loghain still abandoned him and the rest of the army. Battles have been won with bad odds before especially facing an unintelligent army like that. Loghain wins unwinnable battles in The Stolen Throne.
[quote]Default137 wrote...
Now lets see what evidence we have against Loghain shall we?[/quote]
That he abandoned the king and army is undeniable. The question is whether he was justified or not.
That he framed the grey wardens and tried to assassinate them is also undeniable. I've said before that if he came to them after the battle and explained it in terms of he could see the battle was unwinnable and he tried to save as much of the army as possible then he probably would have won me over as grey warden.
That it was his plan that Calain wanted to wait for the Orlesians and GWs is also in game.
That he ignored teh blight is also ingame, Loghain himself admits it.
That Loghain sold elves into slavery is also undeniable.
That he conspired with the man who slaughtered the entire Cousland houselhold and tortured and killed other nobles and even rewarded him is also in game.
That he poisoned Eamonn is ingame. That he didn't mean for it to kill him isn't.
That he conspired with blood mages is also ingame.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
Yes, what was his real agenda?  Eamon didn't even keep the child a secret nor did he take care of him with any of the respect you might give to a possible heir to the throne. At the whining of his Orlesian wife he promptly shipped the boy off to the chantry like an unwanted orphan where everyone thought he was Eamon's bastard instead of Maric's. Now that's a man with a sense of responsibility for his King's son! Now, twenty years later he pops Alistair out of hiding and says, "Look! Take my word for it folks--it's King Maric's boy and he should rule the land!"--and then try to say he has no personal or political agenda? That's simply laughable or bad writing and I don't think, given the quality of writing in this story that writing is the problem, here.[/quote]
No offence but you really need to improve your quoting.

Its not laughable, Eamonn was concealing the boy, how could he have given him preferential treatment? He did actually make sure he was safe. Shipping him off to the chantry is hardly like sending him off sa say a slave. You could say that he probably hoped that Alistair would harden up under the templars, something he did need.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
Eamon's only crime is to support Cailin? Oh and he's no accessory to his wife's crimes of killing hundreds of villagers and knights because she would not send her son to the [legal, much as I find it abominable] mage's tower? The boy could well have become an abomination without Jowan there at all due to her stupidity.[/quote]
She was stupid but hardly responsible, you're looking for ways to blame Eamonn and excuse Loghain. We don't see what happened with them behind closed doors either. Eamonn did have more pressing concerns as well. Besides in 2 of my play throughs I make her sacrifice herself, so there you go, problem solved.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
Or the fact he knew so little about his own son he doesn't realize the kid is a mage? In his own house?[/quote]
You're just proving my point.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
Yet you argue that Loghain is responsible for everything Howe did in a different location--where's the logic in that?[/quote]
I'm arguing that Loghain conspired with howe and rewarded him despite knowing what he did. He's an accessory after the fact.

As for the slavery I'm not going to quote you but none of what you wrote excuses selling them into slavery. Loghain wasn't selling the into slavery to save them he was selling them to fund the civil war effort.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
Arl Eamon at the time is going against the law of the land for supporting the Gray Wardens since they are to be arrested on sight. Bluntly, that is treasonable. And you didn't notice his private little prison there in the basement while you were hanging with Jowan? With dead skeletons against the walls in chains? Or that when the MC is imprisoned in Drakon that there are torture racks? Or what Leliana says about the Orlesian guards? Or that his guards and wife did torture Jowan for information? Did this all escape your notice?[/quote]
Its a medieval society, you don't know who he tortured or why and you can hardly say Jowan didn't have it coming. Besides it wasn't even Eamonn that put him there. As for committing treason by supporting the GWs sorry thats a laughable thing to tar Eamonn with compared to Loghain's actions.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
How can Loghain know about how the Gray Wardens bring down a blight other than dusty legends? Even the main character doesn't know why it takes a GW to kill an archdemon this until AFTER Loghain either joins, or does not.  The Orlesians are recent history to Loghain--not ancient legends.[/quote]
Even without knowing the specifics of what the GWs do it is undeniable that they are the only organisation remotely prepared to face a blight. Its their whole raison d'etre after all and they must have documentation and lore from previous blights.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
Watch the cutaway--Bann Teagon goes after Loghain and Loghain bellows back. Not the other way around. We don't have any proof in the game about who fired the first shot in a civil war. It's a deliberately ambiguous plot point.[/quote]
The civil war came about primarily because Loghain made himself regent. I've said before but he didn't have to do that. He could have let Anora sit on the throne as queen, she would have been accepted, and simply been the General for teh armies. It looks like a power play from Loghain.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
He's exactly like Cailin--Anora talks about this a number of times. I think she'd know the difference. Loghain is the only one who tells you why Maric didn't accept Alistair--strictly politics because Maric knew the Orlesians would try to use Alistair to upset the hereditary throne line and in Loghain's opinion, it was what he believed Alistair or the GW's were doing when they crashed the landsmeet.[/quote]
Which is itself an indication of his paranoia.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
The whole plot hangs together only if one sees Loghain as "gray"--if he's the bad guy--the plot has more holes than a bleached j-cloth.[/quote]
I'm not saying he's evil. I'm saying he's not a hero, and that due to his actions largely gets what he deserves if you execute him. He's paranoid about the Orlesians and it infected every single decision he made in the game to Ferelden's detriment.
[quote]Swifty wrote...
No, Loghain refused the Orlesians at the border and suggested Cailin wait for Fereldon reinforcements or withdraw. Cailin wanted Orlesian reinforcements--thus Loghain's problem with Cailin's plan.[/quote]
I can't remember exactly what was said then, its still amounts to his plan and Cailan wanting to wait. Even without reinforcements Loghain could have planned for a holding action and would have been able to persuade the king I'm sure.