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[Swifty]

[quote]

Same reason I see marrying Alistair for political reasons but keeping Zevran on the side as a happy ending.  Is it ideal? No, but it's still happy.
[/quote]

Actually Zevran is by far the superiour romantic choice anyway.

[/quote]

Well, I certainly think so.  But I was only pointing out that just because you can't be married to your LI doesn't mean you can't have a very happy ending with them anyway.  
[/quote]

Aha a Dune ending:lol:

Another Zev for lover fan. yay!

After Loghain, he's the second best-built character in the whole game.

[ejoslin]

Swifty wrote...

Aha a Dune ending:lol:

Another Zev for lover fan. yay!

After Loghain, he's the second best-built character in the whole game.

I'm not as well known a rabid zev fangirl as I thought!

Ok, just to keep this on topic.  If you let Loghain die, everyone forgets his really bad things, and just goes down in history as a great hero, for saving Ferelden twice.  Once from Orlais, and once from the blight. 

That ending was, oh, fantastic in the way it pissed me off SO much!  But it was right letting him redeem himself.  He made huge mistakes, and normally he dies for me, but not always, because he has always had his country's best interest at heart.  My dwarves understand that more than my humans and even my elves do.

Edit: I mean if you have him do the Ultimate Sacrifice.  Hmmmm, more coffee!

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mars 2010 - 06:05 .

[Swifty]

ejoslin wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Aha a Dune ending:lol:

Another Zev for lover fan. yay!

After Loghain, he's the second best-built character in the whole game.

I'm not as well known a rabid zev fangirl as I thought!

Ok, just to keep this on topic.  If you let Loghain die, everyone forgets his really bad things, and just goes down in history as a great hero, for saving Ferelden twice.  Once from Orlais, and once from the blight.

That ending was, oh, fantastic in the way it pissed me off SO much!  But it was right letting him redeem himself.  He made huge mistakes, and normally he dies for me, but not always, because he has always had his country's best interest at heart.  My dwarves understand that more than my humans and even my elves do.

Actually he gets a statue nobody ever visits and gets pigeon pooped except for Anora occassionally dropping a few flowers.

And absolutely it was a satisfying ending to get the info out of Loghain, understand him and realize just what he's up against rather than go the black/white road of killing him. That's when you realize that the Nobles have a serious agenda against him because he's just an  "upstart commoner" to them and why they didn't say a dern word about his elf-selling in the landsmeet and worse--they just didn't care.  As a city elf--I didn't get a single vote against him on that count.

Even Loghain's enemies damn him with praise, if you listen closely, including Eamon [until Teagon after his run in at the council where Loghain basically tells him to shut the feck up says that Loghain is "power mad"] and Ser Cauthrain who absolutely adore him.

Loghain sacrificed long before he gets to GW. He has no personal life at all. All he cares about is Fereldon staying free and keeping his daughter alive because there's no heir and she's at risk.

I haven't played a dwarf but I can see how they'd respect him because they've been fighting darkspawn forever and he's their kinda guy, blunt and bold--given the dwarven political mess.

[ejoslin]

Swifty wrote...
Actually he gets a statue nobody ever visits and gets pigeon pooped except for Anora occassionally dropping a few flowers.

And absolutely it was a satisfying ending to get the info out of Loghain, understand him and realize just what he's up against rather than go the black/white road of killing him. That's when you realize that the Nobles have a serious agenda against him because he's just an  "upstart commoner" to them and why they didn't say a dern word about his elf-selling in the landsmeet and worse--they just didn't care.  As a city elf--I didn't get a single vote against him on that count.

Even Loghain's enemies damn him with praise, if you listen closely, including Eamon [until Teagon after his run in at the council where Loghain basically tells him to shut the feck up says that Loghain is "power mad"] and Ser Cauthrain who absolutely adore him.

Loghain sacrificed long before he gets to GW. He has no personal life at all. All he cares about is Fereldon staying free and keeping his daughter alive because there's no heir and she's at risk.

I haven't played a dwarf but I can see how they'd respect him because they've been fighting darkspawn forever and he's their kinda guy, blunt and bold--given the dwarven political mess.

Oh no, if you let Loghain take that blow, he is a HERO.  Otherwise, the statue is ignored.

Edit: I literally called Anora all sorts of names that I would never EVER use when I saw that ending.  THIS one I know for a fact, it had that strong an impact on me!

Second edit: I was not clear enough in my other post.  I am only talking about if Loghain does the ultimate sacrifice.  If you or Alistair executes him, no one cares.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mars 2010 - 06:06 .

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...
Aha a Dune ending:lol:

Heh, this is how I thought of my Dalish elf- Alistair ending where I set him up with Anora and had her stay his mistress.  DE= Chani, Anora= Irulan.  It's a melancholy ending, but any Alistair-elf pairing is going to end up melancholy (I count Alistair giving up the throne and Anora being sole ruler as melancholy).

As for Loghain, he gets no redemption in my games.  There are some things you just can't come back from.  On my last play of Ostagar, I was noticing the man who wavers in the line and starts backing up.  I thought of him and the others you hear about deserting, and thought, that man stayed and died- he might have had his guts eaten out by darkspawn- contrast this to Loghain's retreat.  Loghain's men might not have won the battle, but they might at least have carved out a retreat for the king's men.  A warrior's death is too good for him.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mars 2010 - 06:00 .

[Swifty]

Caladhiel wrote...

Swifty wrote...

There's no proof Loghain is a traitor, either. And actually his actions at Ostagar were more than justifiable in military strategy terms.

How so?

What I find so remarkable is that so many people seem to think the battle at Ostagar was a lost cause from the very beginning. That Loghain retreated to save his men and thus save at least a small portion of the army which would otherwise have been doomed due to Cailan's carelessness. I'm wondering what gives them this impression,

Simple. The people who tell you this not only asked Loghain--it's confirmed by Wynn that the mages fled the battle scene on seeing so many darkspawn [same reason the one fellow looks panicked and the older soldier nudges him] and thus--Loghain no longer had a way to use his pincer effect to reach Cailin before he was swarmed. As well you hadn't noticed that the beacon was lit late? You can't flank the enemy when all the troops in front of you are already dead. As the rogues;)

because I am convinced that the battle could have been won, and would have been if Loghain had intervened. I've played the game often enough, and what convinced me were two things:

- Duncan prior to the battle. He keeps his thoughts on Cailan to himself, so I don't really know if he thinks him to be a competent king. But what he DOES say before the battle, in the valley and full of confidence, is: "The plan is going to work, your majesty."

What else would you have him say when during his own father's rule, the GW's were an illegal organization due to their political meddling? "Gee sire, I think you're a military idiot?" Also if you listen to the scouts talking around Ostagar and the scouts coming back from the forest--Ostagar is about to get swarmed. While this is going on--Cailin is off boozing with the GW's. Now that's dedication. Meanwhile, Loghain is working. He out and out tells Cailin NOT to do it unless there are reinforcements and he doesn't want them to be Orlesian. Loghain's absolutely correct to say if they move in, they will not pack up their toys and go home just because the darkspawn are defeated. That's not paranoia--it's common sense. As an elf [both kinds] I didn't trust a word Cailin, Duncan or Loghain had to say. In fact, as an elf I didn't trust Alistair for the longest time, either.

Now as a well-behaved Warden I trust in Duncan's strategic ability: he has been involved in the strategic meetings with the king and his war generals, and most of all, he is a senior GW with an ample ability in sensing Darkspawn. He knew about the tactics planned for the battle, and as a senior GW I trust he knew everything about the foe (especially the numbers!) the army was about to face. He can sense Darkspawn, after all. If the numbers would have been so vastly great, shouldn't Duncan have noticed something?

You trust a man who lied by omission about the "joining" deaths, kills someone who loves his wife and doesn't want to drink the poison [Jim Jones, anyone?] doesn't tell you that you will end up as a darkspawn yourself and possibly a broodmother? [as a woman playing I found that about the creepiest thing in the whole game]. My elves had enough sense to be distrustful from the start of both him and Cailin. My human noble, didn't. And even then--it isn't until Riordan that we find out it takes a GW to kill the archdemon? Yet Alistair was with them six months and they didn't bother to mention this important little fact? Frankly, I find them about as abominable as the Templars.

- Ser Cauthrien. During the cutscene she is standing at attention and obviously ready to charge, and is utterly amazed when Loghain tells her to sound the retreat. From her surprise I find it hard to believe that the battle was going so badly at this point: she is an expert warrior herself, if the battle had already been as good as lost  I think her reaction would have been different. As I see it, she doesn't agree with Loghain's command at all, or at least she doesn't understand it. She obeyes him because that's basically what she does (hero worship).

No, she is shocked because if she's not a complete fool she'd realize that Cailin will not survive and that Loghain is refusing to sacrifice good troops to bail him out this time from his interminable stupidity. He's about to let a king die so the commoner troops can live. Of course she's shocked on many levels. Even Anora talks about how childish Cailin is--many times.

If Ser Cauthrin was so disgusted about Ostagar why does she spend two more major brawls defending Loghain?

But of course, my character doesn't know anything about that, because that's metagaming. What my character DOES know is that:

1. Loghain quit the field. That's what Morrigan tells us, and even Flemeth can't tell us WHY he did that. Flemeth's not a complete idiot, I'm sure she would have recognised a lost battle, which leaves us to assume that the battle at Ostagar  wasn't lost when Loghain vanished. Granted, she isn't a strategist, so I may be mistaken.

Of course Loghain quit the field, no question. It was that or lose the rest of the troops. What would you have him do?

Flemeth also is very vague about why Loghain would do that. Yet she saw the whole battlefield and does not say that it was a winnable battle. She also claims a fear of the darkspawn taking over her home, as well.  If that's the case, why didn't she swoop down and save Cailin instead so in gratitude he would retake Ostagar and she would be safe?

Yet, Flemeth does nothing to turn the tide of the battle and as a dragon she's in a primo postition to do so. What does she do? Save the Wardens so they can knock up Morrigan. Hardly a credible source of information on Loghain's motives, or what really happened, I'd say. And Ostagar was overrun completely. No doubt about that one.

2. Loghain sends word out that you betrayed the king, granting you hostility throughout Fereldan society and further impeding your mission. Basically, the only reason why people still help you is that (thankfully) they can't for the most part believe the GW would do something that atrocious. It doesn't have that great an impact on the game, but it is something my PC didn't take lightly.

The GW didn't light the beacon in time. Whether Loghain stayed or left, that responsibility belonged to the GW's and they failed--miserably. Period. How should he view it when he's being blamed for for Cailin's death and sounding the retreat?

3. Loghain sends assassins after you. You survive only due to the fact that you are so awesome that you even manage to outmanoeuvre the Crows.

Loghain doesn't hire them. Howe does. He acquieses with a look of disgust. Again, he's losing troops in the middle of a civil war chasing around a bunch of GW's. He has the legal right to execute the GW for treachery if for no other reason than they failed to light the beacon. The GW's aren't legally entitled to a trial or even a court martial. As a GW that's hard to accept but by the landsmeet and when a MC is talking about the ability to govern an entire country it's best to be over a fit of pique. You also have the option to ask Zevran to assasinate Loghain.

4. Howe is Loghain's right hand. Even as the most freshwater Dalish elf you get the sense that Howe is a villainous bastard, which leaves you thinking why on earth Loghain would put his trust in THIS man, of all people.This also doesn't really contribute to making him more likeable.

Loghain's not likeable. Likeability isn't a top priority in a general and militiary strategiest--the ability to win is paramount. That's what he does well. That's the trait he has and Alistair lacks.

Howe is worse. But if you notice, he at least puts Mr. Gang Rapist in the brig which is more than his predecessor would be willing to do.

Seeing this, honestly, why would my GW want to spare him? My PC has seen Loghain once before the battle of Ostagar, and once in the Landsmeet, where he just keeps going on about Orlais (which makes me think he's cracked entirely). If Riordan is so eager to recruit someone, let it be Bann Teagan, or Arl Wulff (he's got enough pent-up frustration to last TWO lifetimes) - if it's numbers we're talking about, choose someone else.

Who? We're not given that option. To keep the GW alive it's either recruit him, or kill him. Period. And you don't honestly think that the fat cat nobles [especially as an elf] are going to give up their cushy beds to go with some low-level trash elf, do you? Give it to Loghain--he would and he won't run away from camp [which could be possible] either. He'll stick it out with far less whining than Alistair, "for the common good". He'll also treat the MC with respect, far faster than Alistair ever did.

Even if Alistair wouldn't throw a fit and quit, my PC would never even consider recruiting Loghain (especially after Landsmeet, where it's apparent that he's not quite the Hero of the River Dane I pictured him to be).

He's still that hero or there wouldn't even BE a landsmeet. The Orlesians would be running the joint and at the first sight of darkspawn--left the country completely undefended. How often can that be repeated?  And as far as slavery went--the Orlesians used the all elves as slaves, not just one city--at least they had a running [be it crappy] chance in Fereldon. As for Cailin--he didn't exactly appoint any elves to the landsmeet either, did he?

Elfing it I found the whole bloody lot of humans morally bankrupt and opted only to get enough power to get Shaini on the council and the Dalish a new home. I USed as a Dalish to add weight to my claim. Both times I killed Loghain but I knew in the case of City elf that it was not an astute move and later, when Alistair USed I was piffed about him, too. As a city elf I let Alistair do the nasty to Loghain for appeasement simply because I just wanted to get us a home and couldn't have cared less how much the humans slaughtered each other so long as we got it.

However, I was aware both times that I was wasting a valuable resource and that Loghain had more going on than simple evil-ness.

As an older "mature" mage I saw many more sides of the question and GW'ed him for the good of the country.

As a human noble I'm not sure what I'll do. I could be king, I could put Alistair on the throne or I could do Morrigan and be king. Or I might just run off with Liliana and be done with the mess.

[CalJones]

Ultimately, much of the game is left deliberately vague and, as such, is open to the player's interpretation. I interpet Loghain as a war hero who has done much good for Fereldan in the past, but his various flaws have driven him to do the wrong things for the right reasons. In my games, he gets his redemption more times than not. Anora's statue actually gives me the warm fuzzies.



Other people interpret him differently. They're entitled to do so. However, I can't help wondering if Loghain would get more of a chance from players if they weren't forced to choose between him and the main female romance character. Alistair has a lot of fans and whilst he's not my personal cup of tea, I can see why he's appealing. Dropping a character you are attached to in favour of another who has been a major antagonist is a tough call. If it was Wynne who left in disgust then I expect Loghain wouldn't die quite as often.

[krylo]

CalJones wrote...

If it was Wynne who left in disgust then I expect Loghain wouldn't die quite as often.

Mod Plz?

[Swifty]

ejoslin wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Actually he gets a statue nobody ever visits and gets pigeon pooped except for Anora occassionally dropping a few flowers.

And absolutely it was a satisfying ending to get the info out of Loghain, understand him and realize just what he's up against rather than go the black/white road of killing him. That's when you realize that the Nobles have a serious agenda against him because he's just an  "upstart commoner" to them and why they didn't say a dern word about his elf-selling in the landsmeet and worse--they just didn't care.  As a city elf--I didn't get a single vote against him on that count.

Even Loghain's enemies damn him with praise, if you listen closely, including Eamon [until Teagon after his run in at the council where Loghain basically tells him to shut the feck up says that Loghain is "power mad"] and Ser Cauthrain who absolutely adore him.

Loghain sacrificed long before he gets to GW. He has no personal life at all. All he cares about is Fereldon staying free and keeping his daughter alive because there's no heir and she's at risk.

I haven't played a dwarf but I can see how they'd respect him because they've been fighting darkspawn forever and he's their kinda guy, blunt and bold--given the dwarven political mess.

Oh no, if you let Loghain take that blow, he is a HERO.  Otherwise, the statue is ignored.

Edit: I literally called Anora all sorts of names that I would never EVER use when I saw that ending.  THIS one I know for a fact, it had that strong an impact on me!

Second edit: I was not clear enough in my other post.  I am only talking about if Loghain does the ultimate sacrifice.  If you or Alistair executes him, no one cares.

Read it again. I let Loghain jump the dragon and all he got was a statue everyone ignored except Anora.

He doesn't "die a hero". And even if he did--there's plenty of dead heroes with statues around the world that I doubt many would think of as heroes today. My concerns aren't with that as any sort of character. Also note that it is Morrigan who brings this up and she's hardly a credible source of info and hey, that's not the least bit manipulative, ya think?

That's just letting pride get in the way of an intelligent decision. He gets a statue or gets to be a hero. Who cares? I care about the living, not the dead.

[Swifty]

CalJones wrote...

Ultimately, much of the game is left deliberately vague and, as such, is open to the player's interpretation.

Absolutely. However much Loghain hatred is engendered by those who are manipulated by emotion and not the facts based in front of them. Now, as an elf I 'get it'--as other MC's it looks very different.

I interpet Loghain as a war hero who has done much good for Fereldan in the past, but his various flaws have driven him to do the wrong things for the right reasons.

That's how I viewed him even when, as an elf I killed him or let Alistair do it.


In my games, he gets his redemption more times than not. Anora's statue actually gives me the warm fuzzies.

Other people interpret him differently. They're entitled to do so. However, I can't help wondering if Loghain would get more of a chance from players if they weren't forced to choose between him and the main female romance character.

I think that's why when playing a gay elf and male mage I viewed him very differently than when I romanced Alistair. Just shows you how stupid we all get for love, neh?

Alistair has a lot of fans and whilst he's not my personal cup of tea, I can see why he's appealing. Dropping a character you are attached to in favour of another who has been a major antagonist is a tough call. If it was Wynne who left in disgust then I expect Loghain wouldn't die quite as often.

If Wynne ponied up the truth about the mages fleeing the battlefield due to the overwhelming number of darkspawn instead of blowing a hole in the line to get to Cailin--before one recruits Loghain--I doubt he'd be killed half as often.

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...

Simple. The people who tell you this not only asked Loghain--it's confirmed by Wynn that the mages fled the battle scene on seeing so many darkspawn [same reason the one fellow looks panicked and the older soldier nudges him] and thus--Loghain no longer had a way to use his pincer effect to reach Cailin before he was swarmed. As well you hadn't noticed that the beacon was lit late? You can't flank the enemy when all the troops in front of you are already dead. As the rogues;)

They were not all already dead.  We know this metagame-wise from the cutscene, but also from the report you get from Oswyn in Howe's dungeon.  He is there being tortured because someone was telling the truth- that Loghain pulled out before the army was overwhelmed.

You can argue all you like that it was a tactical retreat, but there is no way to prove this.  From all indications I see, it was either a coward's retreat or a politician's.

No, she is shocked because if she's not a complete fool she'd realize that Cailin will not survive and that Loghain is refusing to sacrifice good troops to bail him out this time from his interminable stupidity. He's about to let a king die so the commoner troops can live. Of course she's shocked on many levels. Even Anora talks about how childish Cailin is--many times.

...and the commoner troops fighting with Cailan?  Loghain lets them die, too.  However, the most telling thing about Cauthrien's reaction is, again, that it rules out that this was a tactical retreat.  If she could see that the field was overwhelmed and the battle a lost cause, her reaction would have been one of resignation, not shock and protest. 

Loghain doesn't hire them. Howe does. He acquieses with a look of disgust. Again, he's losing troops in the middle of a civil war chasing around a bunch of GW's. He has the legal right to execute the GW for treachery if for no other reason than they failed to light the beacon.

LOL  The GWs are traitors because they encountered surprise opposition and were delayed in lighting the beacon, but Loghain is a hero for encountering surprise opposition and retreating without doing a damn thing?  That is rather head-spinning logic.

He's still that hero or there wouldn't even BE a landsmeet. The Orlesians would be running the joint and at the first sight of darkspawn--left the country completely undefended.

Which only makes his fall more tragic, and does not erase his treason in the end.  Many traitors start out as heroes, otherwise they don't get into the position of power that allows their deeds to be so harmful.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mars 2010 - 07:58 .

[SurelyForth]

Absolutely. However much Loghain hatred is engendered by those who are manipulated by emotion and not the facts based in front of them. Now, as an elf I 'get it'--as other MC's it looks very different.

So if a person can look at a set of circumstances and come away from it with a different intepretation than you they are being "manipulated by emotion" and you are being logical? That's a...really self-aggrandizing statement to make.

[ejoslin]

Swifty wrote...

Read it again. I let Loghain jump the dragon and all he got was a statue everyone ignored except Anora.

He doesn't "die a hero". And even if he did--there's plenty of dead heroes with statues around the world that I doubt many would think of as heroes today. My concerns aren't with that as any sort of character. Also note that it is Morrigan who brings this up and she's hardly a credible source of info and hey, that's not the least bit manipulative, ya think?

That's just letting pride get in the way of an intelligent decision. He gets a statue or gets to be a hero. Who cares? I care about the living, not the dead.

Hmmm, I'm wondering if your ending got bugged, because mine said specifically that people forgot all the bad stuff he did and he was remembered as a hero.  Sometimes the slides DO get bugged, though.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mars 2010 - 08:12 .

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Simple. The people who tell you this not only asked Loghain--it's confirmed by Wynn that the mages fled the battle scene on seeing so many darkspawn [same reason the one fellow looks panicked and the older soldier nudges him] and thus--Loghain no longer had a way to use his pincer effect to reach Cailin before he was swarmed. As well you hadn't noticed that the beacon was lit late? You can't flank the enemy when all the troops in front of you are already dead. As the rogues;)

They were not all already dead.  We know this metagame-wise from the cutscene, but also from the report you get from Oswyn in Howe's dungeon.  He is there being tortured because someone was telling the truth- that Loghain pulled out before the army was overwhelmed.

They are not all dead yet does not mean you have not already lost the battle.

You can argue all you like that it was a tactical retreat, but there is no way to prove this.  From all indications I see, it was either a coward's retreat or a politician's.

Or tactical to save troops because it's a losing battle. The darkspawn already were all over the camps and the tower before the retreat was sounded. Or didn't you notice that?

No, she is shocked because if she's not a complete fool she'd realize that Cailin will not survive and that Loghain is refusing to sacrifice good troops to bail him out this time from his interminable stupidity. He's about to let a king die so the commoner troops can live. Of course she's shocked on many levels. Even Anora talks about how childish Cailin is--many times.

...and the commoner troops fighting with Cailan?  Loghain lets them die, too.  However, the most telling thing about Cauthrien's reaction is, again, that it rules out that this was a tactical retreat.  If she could see that the field was overwhelmed and the battle a lost cause, her reaction would have been one of resignation, not shock and protest. 

We don't know why she's shocked. Loghain being Loghain she could be shocked simply because it isn't like him to back down in faced with overwhelming odds. As for the troops with Cailin, if you haven't heard his opinion when he speaks to Wynne then you don't know what he feels about that.

Loghain doesn't hire them. Howe does. He acquieses with a look of disgust. Again, he's losing troops in the middle of a civil war chasing around a bunch of GW's. He has the legal right to execute the GW for treachery if for no other reason than they failed to light the beacon.

LOL  The GWs are traitors because they encountered surprise opposition and were delayed in lighting the beacon, but Loghain is a hero for encountering surprise opposition and retreating without doing a damn thing?  That is rather head-spinning logic.

I didn't call him a hero other than a tragic hero. Please don't write things I didn't say. His later actions do not change the fact he is the Hero of River Dane.

The fact the tower is swarmed by darkspawn so the beacon is late getting lit only reinforces Loghain's position that the place was either overrun with darkspawn or the GW deliberately lit it late. Take your pick.

He's still that hero or there wouldn't even BE a landsmeet. The Orlesians would be running the joint and at the first sight of darkspawn--left the country completely undefended.

Which only makes his fall more tragic, and does not erase his treason in the end.  Many traitors start out as heroes, otherwise they don't get into the position of power that allows their deeds to be so harmful.

What makes him a traitor? He's only a traitor if one prefers loyalty over the "crown" over loyalty to "Fereldon". He was exceptionally loyal to Anora, the legal ruler, even though she was not loyal to him. He tried to reason with Cailin but the choice was save Cailin or save enough troops to protect Fereldon.

What treason? He may be misguided but he certainly didn't do what he did [as Cailin did by requesting Orlesians troops] that would have put Fereldon in the hands of another country.

[Addai]

Tell me (and Arl Wulff, and Bann Alfstanna, and the people of Lothering) how he is protecting Ferelden by leaving the entire south to fend for itself against the hoard while his own troops still have the shine on their boots?  So that he can rush to Denerim and claim a throne you claim is responsibly held by Anora?

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mars 2010 - 08:21 .

[Swifty]

Hmmm, I'm wondering if your ending got bugged, because mine said specifically that people forgot all the bad stuff he did and he was remembered as a hero.  Sometimes the slides DO get bugged, though.

I wouldn't have minded that personally, anyway. He was dead, let the people have something to look up to since he did free their country from Orlesian domination. GWing him means the people get a live hero [MC] and a dead hero [Loghain].

I can live with that. He spent 30 years acting with honour and what, a year? as a bad guy. We should all do that well.

[Default137]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Simple. The people who tell you this not only asked Loghain--it's confirmed by Wynn that the mages fled the battle scene on seeing so many darkspawn [same reason the one fellow looks panicked and the older soldier nudges him] and thus--Loghain no longer had a way to use his pincer effect to reach Cailin before he was swarmed. As well you hadn't noticed that the beacon was lit late? You can't flank the enemy when all the troops in front of you are already dead. As the rogues;)

They were not all already dead.  We know this metagame-wise from the cutscene, but also from the report you get from Oswyn in Howe's dungeon.  He is there being tortured because someone was telling the truth- that Loghain pulled out before the army was overwhelmed.

You can argue all you like that it was a tactical retreat, but there is no way to prove this.  From all indications I see, it was either a coward's retreat or a politician's.

No, she is shocked because if she's not a complete fool she'd realize that Cailin will not survive and that Loghain is refusing to sacrifice good troops to bail him out this time from his interminable stupidity. He's about to let a king die so the commoner troops can live. Of course she's shocked on many levels. Even Anora talks about how childish Cailin is--many times.

...and the commoner troops fighting with Cailan?  Loghain lets them die, too.  However, the most telling thing about Cauthrien's reaction is, again, that it rules out that this was a tactical retreat.  If she could see that the field was overwhelmed and the battle a lost cause, her reaction would have been one of resignation, not shock and protest. 

Loghain doesn't hire them. Howe does. He acquieses with a look of disgust. Again, he's losing troops in the middle of a civil war chasing around a bunch of GW's. He has the legal right to execute the GW for treachery if for no other reason than they failed to light the beacon.

LOL  The GWs are traitors because they encountered surprise opposition and were delayed in lighting the beacon, but Loghain is a hero for encountering surprise opposition and retreating without doing a damn thing?  That is rather head-spinning logic.

He's still that hero or there wouldn't even BE a landsmeet. The Orlesians would be running the joint and at the first sight of darkspawn--left the country completely undefended.

Which only makes his fall more tragic, and does not erase his treason in the end.  Many traitors start out as heroes, otherwise they don't get into the position of power that allows their deeds to be so harmful.

Yes.

Listen to Wynne sometime about Ostagar please.

According to her, the Mages left the field very very early, because they were under attack, and Uldred pulled out, without Mage support, Cailans forces were getting MASSACRED, and the Darkspawn had the area surrounded long before the tower was lit. Loghain COULD have charged and won the battle, this was not in question, however doing so would have cost him almost every soldier under his command, thats why it was a tactical retreat, you don't sacrifice every man in the military for a very tiny chance you might save an idiot, thats not something any sane person would ever do.

As for Alistar, he's a nice guy, but what he did at the Landsmeet made me hate him utterly, he betrayed my HFN, he betrayed Ferelden, he betrayed the Wardens, he even betrayed everything Duncan taught him, all because he couldn't get his childish petty revenge against a man who according to a witch wronged him, I wished there was an option to kill him right then and there, and I imagine if Duncan was still alive, he would have gutted him as well.

And of course Loghain blamed the Wardens, by the time the tower was lit a charge would have been suicidal, if you had lit it earlier, he actually may have charged, as the battle may have been winnable, so why shouldn'y he blame what happened at Ostagar on your failure? "OH BUT THE TOWER WAS FULL OF DARKSPAN HURR DURR" you still ****ed up, and the King died because of your failure.

[Addai]

You mean Uldred, Loghain's ally, retreated precipitously and left Cailan's troops vulnerable? What a shock.



If Loghain had a clear enough view of the battlefield that he could see enough to make a tactical retreat, why did he even wait for the beacon?

[SurelyForth]

Default137 wrote...

As for Alistar, he's a nice guy, but what he did at the Landsmeet made me hate him utterly, he betrayed my HFN, he betrayed Ferelden, he betrayed the Wardens, he even betrayed everything Duncan taught him, all because he couldn't get his childish petty revenge against a man who according to a witch wronged him, I wished there was an option to kill him right then and there, and I imagine if Duncan was still alive, he would have gutted him as well.

And of course Loghain blamed the Wardens, by the time the tower was lit a charge would have been suicidal, if you had lit it earlier, he actually may have charged, as the battle may have been winnable, so why shouldn'y he blame what happened at Ostagar on your failure? "OH BUT THE TOWER WAS FULL OF DARKSPAN HURR DURR" you still ****ed up, and the King died because of your failure.

You betray Alistair first by accepting Loghain into the Wardens, and it's a deeply personal betrayal- and all he does is leave (or try to leave). He doesn't attack you or anything and, as far as he's concerned, you're no worse off because you still have the same number of Wardens that you started with.

Alistair was not indoctrined by Duncan to be the Grey Warden that Duncan was- when you meet him he's still very wet behind the ears and naive, he doesn't have a concept of what being a Grey Warden really means. If Duncan had lived, Alistair would have ended up being very different, I think.

So...you blame yourself for not lighting the beacon? Why don't you just throw yourself on a sword at Flemeth's and call it a Game Over? 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 09 mars 2010 - 08:33 .

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

Tell me (and Arl Wulff, and Bann Alfstanna, and the people of Lothering) how he is protecting Ferelden by leaving the entire south to fend for itself against the hoard while his own troops still have the shine on their boots?  So that he can rush to Denerim and claim a throne you claim is responsibly held by Anora?

Lothering is militarily undefensible. Period. Did you even look at the place or read one word I said about it?

Generals don't win wars by defending every little hamlet, particularly in the feudal age. They win wars by planning out where they will bottleneck the enemy or be uphill or have a strategically superiour position especially if their troops are outnumbered. Which, in this situation was absolutely true. Denerim is defensible. How do you propose that Lothering should have been defended?

It sucks and it's a fact of war. It's why there are refugees in war torn countries, even today. It's not about "defending it" it's about retreating until the bulk of the enemy army is defeated then going back in full force and mopping up instead of letting the enemy take the advantage and being dumb enough to have your troops wiped out before even giving them the chance to win.

Go read "The Art of War" or something equally enlightening about military tactics before you assume Loghain's men were sitting around polishing their boots while the south burned.

I don't see Anora as a 'good queen'. I was in fac,t personally shocked when the ending credits said she was--after idiot Alistair jumped the dragon against my will when I put him on the throne alone. I personally could have happily beheaded her for treachery. It wasn't an option. They pulled her out of jail and stuck her on the throne.

[Swifty]

SurelyForth wrote...

Default137 wrote...

As for Alistar, he's a nice guy, but what he did at the Landsmeet made me hate him utterly, he betrayed my HFN, he betrayed Ferelden, he betrayed the Wardens, he even betrayed everything Duncan taught him, all because he couldn't get his childish petty revenge against a man who according to a witch wronged him, I wished there was an option to kill him right then and there, and I imagine if Duncan was still alive, he would have gutted him as well.

And of course Loghain blamed the Wardens, by the time the tower was lit a charge would have been suicidal, if you had lit it earlier, he actually may have charged, as the battle may have been winnable, so why shouldn'y he blame what happened at Ostagar on your failure? "OH BUT THE TOWER WAS FULL OF DARKSPAN HURR DURR" you still ****ed up, and the King died because of your failure.

You betray Alistair first by accepting Loghain into the Wardens, and it's a deeply personal betrayal- and all he does is leave (or try to leave). He doesn't attack you or anything and, as far as he's concerned, you're no worse off because you still have the same number of Wardens that you started with.

Alistair was not indoctrined by Duncan to be the Grey Warden that Duncan was- when you meet him he's still very wet behind the ears and naive, he doesn't have a concept of what being a Grey Warden really means. If Duncan had lived, Alistair would have ended up being very different, I think.

So...you blame yourself for not lighting the beacon? Why don't you just throw yourself on a sword at Flemeth's and call it a Game Over? 

That's my point about Alistair. He's not a freaking child--he's a man acting like a child.  He's at the very least, in his mid 20s at this point. In feudal times he'd have had 5 kids already. He absolutely can't make a decision without someone telling him what to do until US's himself. What kind of king is that?

If he's supposed to be king then he needs to get over himself. Period. Otherwise every little betrayal and annoyance is going to have him beheading half the country or moping in his room instead of doing his job.

It's not about assigning blame to oneself for not lighting the beacon--it's being mature enough to realize that Loghain just lost a pile of troops and the king because the GW's did not do their job, either because they were already swamped with darkspawn meaning that Duncan did not know how many there were contrary to all his GW voodoo or that the GW in Loghain's view did not light the beacon in time win the battle. Either way, Loghain has a point--it may not be an accurate point, but it's obvious why he sees it as a betrayal.

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

You mean Uldred, Loghain's ally, retreated precipitously and left Cailan's troops vulnerable? What a shock.

If Loghain had a clear enough view of the battlefield that he could see enough to make a tactical retreat, why did he even wait for the beacon?

Oh lordy. Positioning again. Military strategy. Again.

Because Loghain can see the front of the battle, not the whole battle. For that, one needs to be up high enough to see.

He needs the beacon because the troops behind and around him need to see when to advance.