346 réponses à ce sujet

[Swifty]

Caladhiel wrote...

I still will and cannot believe that Loghain was the one and only superbrain present in Ostagar who 'saw it coming'. Especially as he only 'saw it coming' when he was out on the field, and on top of that from a position which certainly didn't command a full view of the battlefield. I'm sorry, but if we consider that the crème de la crème of Fereldan forces was out there on the field, how come only one man there grasped the situation, gave the battle up for lost and retreated? Is everyone else's judgement so poor that they just ran willy-nilly into their doom? They knew what they were up against, and they were prepared. And I stand by my trust in Duncan, also because he's the last man in Fereldan who has to suck up to the king. If everyone had simply stood their ground and fought like they were supposed to, the battle would have turned out differently.

Duncan who lies from the get-go about what being a Gray Warden really means? That Duncan?

You'd take Duncan's word over the man who freed a country by waging war much of his adult life? A guy who sat around a monastary drinking it up with other GW's and batting about a few darkspawn occassionally?

I'm glad I'm not in that army--the chance of making it out alive are 0%.

It's not about Loghain being a "super general" it's about him being an experienced battlefield commander with large amounts of troops vs. a guerilla band of darkspawn boppers.

There's a vast difference there.

Soldiers DO run "willy nilly" to their doom because soldiers do what they're told even when they know they'll die. That is the moral imperative of their commanders. Period. It's also the moral imperitive of a commander to pull those troops out if he thinks their deaths will be wasted. Not once does Loghain say that war is "glorious" or any other such idiocy. He takes it seriously and death pains him.

If they had all run off the battlefield instead of Loghain ordering them to retreat--would it make a difference other than point to a lack of discipline? It's to Loghain's credit and no one else's that the troops with Cailin stayed and fought knowing they were going to lose. Duncan wasn't responsible for training those troops--Loghain and Ser Caithrun were, or did that escape notice, as well?

The only people Duncan was responsible for was the two people who did not light the beacon and did not do their jobs--regardless of why not--it wasn't done. He sent Alistair there because Alistair was heir to the throne and he wasn't risking him. Even Alistair states that.

[Swifty]

Caladhiel wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Oh lordy. Positioning again. Military strategy. Again.

Because Loghain can see the front of the battle, not the whole battle. For that, one needs to be up high enough to see.

He needs the beacon because the troops behind and around him need to see when to advance.

Hey guys, we have an expert right here! 

Try refuting the logic, or the tactical considerations instead of sarcasm.

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You mean Uldred, Loghain's ally, retreated precipitously and left Cailan's troops vulnerable? What a shock.

If Loghain had a clear enough view of the battlefield that he could see enough to make a tactical retreat, why did he even wait for the beacon?

Oh lordy. Positioning again. Military strategy. Again.

Because Loghain can see the front of the battle, not the whole battle. For that, one needs to be up high enough to see.

He needs the beacon because the troops behind and around him need to see when to advance.

He can see enough to know that he needs to retreat, but not enough that he can change the battle plan mid-fight in order to give Cailan's men a chance.

Right.

P.S. Prove your assertion from something in-game.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...
 It's to Loghain's credit and no one else's that the troops with Cailin stayed and fought knowing they were going to lose.

It was Duncan and Alistair who thought the army could lose.  Loghain himself never made any such claim.  His sole objection was that it was too risky for Cailan to be on the front lines.  Or did you get a different cutscene than the rest of us?  If he believed ahead of time that the battle was a lost cause, the responsible thing to do as general was to make conscientious objection and withdraw before the battle, not form a battle plan then give up when the king's army was counting on him for support.

You and Cauthrien would have gotten along great.  Blind hero worship with only stories of past glory to back it up.

[Swifty]

SurelyForth wrote...

Absolutely. However much Loghain hatred is engendered by those who are manipulated by emotion and not the facts based in front of them. Now, as an elf I 'get it'--as other MC's it looks very different.

So if a person can look at a set of circumstances and come away from it with a different intepretation than you they are being "manipulated by emotion" and you are being logical? That's a...really self-aggrandizing statement to make.

Not really. It's a simple statement of respect to the writers. They manipulated a hatred of Loghain very well from the start of the game and seeded the game with foreshadowing that Loghain was not quite the villian he appeared.

Then, those who didn't fall in love with Alistair or think he walked on water, saw those seeds and looked at the other ramifications of what the writer's put into the story.

Those who simply fell for the "Loghain BAD/Alistair GOOD" people just blind themselves to the other seeds and what Loghain, Wynne. Eamon and others, say in Loghain's defense.

[Addai]

What does Alistair have to do with anything?? All the good points about Loghain, including his status as Hero of River Dane and his concerns about the Orlesians, only serve to underscore the tragedy of his betrayal. As does the irony that...

BOOK SPOILER



...his leaving Cailan on the field to die is the reversal of what Cailan's mother did for him. You keep repeating that Loghain spared his men, but Rowan did not spare her men in order to rescue Loghain. She put Maric and the entire rebellion at risk because she wouldn't simply sacrifice him, though there was no guarantee that her gamble would work. This is what really gets me about what Loghain did. It is one thing to consider that he betrayed Maric's son, but even more astounding that he betrayed Rowan's.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mars 2010 - 09:28 .

[nos_astra]

Swifty wrote...
Those who simply fell for the "Loghain BAD/Alistair GOOD" people just blind themselves to the other seeds and what Loghain, Wynne. Eamon and others, say in Loghain's defense.

Thank you so much for enlightening us! We really had no idea we were being fooled all the time.

Modifié par klarabella, 09 mars 2010 - 09:28 .

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty wrote...
 It's to Loghain's credit and no one else's that the troops with Cailin stayed and fought knowing they were going to lose.

It was Duncan and Alistair who thought the army could lose.  Loghain himself never made any such claim.  His sole objection was that it was too risky for Cailan to be on the front lines.  Or did you get a different cutscene than the rest of us?  If he believed ahead of time that the battle was a lost cause, the responsible thing to do as general was to make conscientious objection and withdraw before the battle, not form a battle plan then give up when the king's army was counting on him for support.

You and Cauthrien would have gotten along great.  Blind hero worship with only stories of past glory to back it up.

Duncan refuses to acknowledge that Cailin could lose.

Secondly you've refuted your own arguement right there. If Loghain was planning to retreat from the start he would not have told Cailin to stay off the front lines. He's the general--not the king. He cannot retreat without the king's say-so. Therefore, he must retreat AFTER he knows Cailin is dead--not before.

In other words--when he knows the front troops have already lost the line and Cailin is dead.

[Swifty]

klarabella wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Those who simply fell for the "Loghain BAD/Alistair GOOD" people just blind themselves to the other seeds and what Loghain, Wynne. Eamon and others, say in Loghain's defense.

Thank you so much for enlightening us! We really had no idea we were being fooled all the time.

Thank you for the sarcasm.

The fact is, I can acknowledge that the writers pulled off this dicotomy, brilliantly--thus all the discussion about plot points, seeds etc.

They had me the first time through [with some trepidation and doubts] the first time, as well.

The plot in this story has numerous levels.

[ejoslin]

Swifty wrote...

Duncan refuses to acknowledge that Cailin could lose.

Secondly you've refuted your own arguement right there. If Loghain was planning to retreat from the start he would not have told Cailin to stay off the front lines. He's the general--not the king. He cannot retreat without the king's say-so. Therefore, he must retreat AFTER he knows Cailin is dead--not before.

In other words--when he knows the front troops have already lost the line and Cailin is dead.

The only reason I disagree with this point is that Duncan had the Warden hang onto the treaties.  if he were confident of a win on the battle field, you'd think he would have taken them rather than left them with someone who had been a grey warden for an hour or two.

Edit: Formatting is an art

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mars 2010 - 09:52 .

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

What does Alistair have to do with anything?? All the good points about Loghain, including his status as Hero of River Dane and his concerns about the Orlesians, only serve to underscore the tragedy of his betrayal. As does the irony that...

BOOK SPOILER



...his leaving Cailan on the field to die is the reversal of what Cailan's mother did for him. You keep repeating that Loghain spared his men, but Rowan did not spare her men in order to rescue Loghain. She put Maric and the entire rebellion at risk because she wouldn't simply sacrifice him, though there was no guarantee that her gamble would work. This is what really gets me about what Loghain did. It is one thing to consider that he betrayed Maric's son, but even more astounding that he betrayed Rowan's.

That however is NOT in the game.

And tells me whoever she is, she does not think like Loghain who would put the country first and a single person, second. And I for one, would not want to be the commoner serving in a fool's army.

Those are two distinctly different personality types.

[Addai]

"Whoever she is"?! Fine, alright. Go read the novels, then come back and lecture us about only seeing one side of Loghain because we aren't paying attention to information about him...

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...

Duncan refuses to acknowledge that Cailin could lose.

I swear, you must be playing a different game than the rest of us.  Right after you meet Cailan, there is that whole chat with Duncan where he expresses his doubt about their ability to win the battle.  He wants Cailan to wait for reinforcements.

In other words--when he knows the front troops have already lost the line and Cailin is dead.

Now you're just making stuff up.

[Swifty]

[quote]ejoslin wrote...

[quote]Swifty wrote...
It was Duncan and Alistair who thought the army could lose.  Loghain himself never made any such claim.  His sole objection was that it was too risky for Cailan to be on the front lines.  Or did you get a different cutscene than the rest of us?  If he believed ahead of time that the battle was a lost cause, the responsible thing to do as general was to make conscientious objection and withdraw before the battle, not form a battle plan then give up when the king's army was counting on him for support.

You and Cauthrien would have gotten along great.  Blind hero worship with only stories of past glory to back it up.[/quote]

Duncan refuses to acknowledge that Cailin could lose.

Secondly you've refuted your own arguement right there. If Loghain was planning to retreat from the start he would not have told Cailin to stay off the front lines. He's the general--not the king. He cannot retreat without the king's say-so. Therefore, he must retreat AFTER he knows Cailin is dead--not before.

In other words--when he knows the front troops have already lost the line and Cailin is dead.

[/quote]

[/quote]The only reason I disagree with this point is that Duncan had the Warden hang onto the treaties.  if he were confident of a win on the battle field, you'd think he would have taken them rather than left them with someone who had been a grey warden for an hour or two.[/quote]

Good point.

Actually, the treaties are handed over to Duncan with the darkspawn blood. How they wind up in the inventory is anybody's guess, or why Duncan would "hand them back" I just don't get at all. Unless Duncan knew that they might well lose. In which case, it becomes obvious why Loghain retreated. He saw at the battle exactly what Duncan suspected.

Or perhaps because Duncan was expecting the Archdemon to show up--thus why he'd send off Alistair on a "baby errand."

Let me clarify that statement.  Duncan refuses to acknowledge to Cailin that he could lose [politically astute?], there's some hints to the new gray warden that the battle might not be so easy.

Modifié par Swifty, 09 mars 2010 - 09:59 .

[ejoslin]

[quote]Swifty wrote...

[quote]ejoslin wrote...

[quote]Swifty wrote...
It was Duncan and Alistair who thought the army could lose.  Loghain himself never made any such claim.  His sole objection was that it was too risky for Cailan to be on the front lines.  Or did you get a different cutscene than the rest of us?  If he believed ahead of time that the battle was a lost cause, the responsible thing to do as general was to make conscientious objection and withdraw before the battle, not form a battle plan then give up when the king's army was counting on him for support.

You and Cauthrien would have gotten along great.  Blind hero worship with only stories of past glory to back it up.[/quote]

Duncan refuses to acknowledge that Cailin could lose.

Secondly you've refuted your own arguement right there. If Loghain was planning to retreat from the start he would not have told Cailin to stay off the front lines. He's the general--not the king. He cannot retreat without the king's say-so. Therefore, he must retreat AFTER he knows Cailin is dead--not before.

In other words--when he knows the front troops have already lost the line and Cailin is dead.

[/quote]

The only reason I disagree with this point is that Duncan had the Warden hang onto the treaties.  if he were confident of a win on the battle field, you'd think he would have taken them rather than left them with someone who had been a grey warden for an hour or two.[/quote]

Actually, the treaties are handed over to Duncan with the darkspawn blood. How they wind up in the inventory is anybody's guess, or why Duncan would "hand them back" I just don't get at all. Unless Duncan knew that they might well lose. In which case, it becomes obvious why Loghain would retreat.

Or perhaps because he was expecting the Archdemon to show up--thus why he'd send off Alistair on a "baby errand."

Let me clarify that statement.  Duncan refuses to acknowledge to Cailin that he could lose [politically astute?], there's some hints to the new gray warden that the battle might not be so easy.

[/quote]

--------- GAH I GIVE UP, my post starts HERE!  The formatting is SO bad and I'm not going to spend a few years figuring it out.

Wow, I have this problem with your posts a lot -- attributes. What you have me quoted as saying is NOT what I said.  I know I do it to your posts as well, but I'm not sure why they're such a mess.  *sigh*  It's a problem I have only with your posts, though.  Weird.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mars 2010 - 10:01 .

[nos_astra]

Swifty wrote...
Thank you for the sarcasm.

You're welcome.

Swifty wrote...
The fact is, I can acknowledge that the writers pulled off this dicotomy, brilliantly--thus all the discussion about plot points, seeds etc.

I agree.

Swifty wrote...
They had me the first time through [with some trepidation and doubts] the first time, as well.
The plot in this story has numerous levels.

Ah, I see, only a story that leads to Loghain's redemption through suicide by Archdemon is real and everything else is there to lead us astray from the path of truthiness.

Modifié par klarabella, 09 mars 2010 - 10:03 .

[Morroian]

Swifty wrote...
Duncan who lies from the get-go about what being a Gray Warden really means? That Duncan?

You'd take Duncan's word over the man who freed a country by waging war much of his adult life? A guy who sat around a monastary drinking it up with other GW's and batting about a few darkspawn occassionally?

I take it you haven't read the books, you really need to read The Calling if you going to make those sort of judgements about Duncan.

[Morroian]

Swifty wrote...
Not really. It's a simple statement of respect to the writers. They manipulated a hatred of Loghain very well from the start of the game and seeded the game with foreshadowing that Loghain was not quite the villian he appeared.

There were indications in the game that Loghain's intentions were not necessarily bad. That doesn't make him a hero or mean that he was right.

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You mean Uldred, Loghain's ally, retreated precipitously and left Cailan's troops vulnerable? What a shock.

If Loghain had a clear enough view of the battlefield that he could see enough to make a tactical retreat, why did he even wait for the beacon?

Oh lordy. Positioning again. Military strategy. Again.

Because Loghain can see the front of the battle, not the whole battle. For that, one needs to be up high enough to see.

He needs the beacon because the troops behind and around him need to see when to advance.

He can see enough to know that he needs to retreat, but not enough that he can change the battle plan mid-fight in order to give Cailan's men a chance.

Right.

P.S. Prove your assertion from something in-game.

Look over the bridge. They're fighting in the valley below obviously and using Ostagar to drop arrows and [if they were smart, other goodies] on the enemy, obviously. It's also where the mages are positioned for safety. Meaning those in
the sides and rear of Loghain's army cannot see what's going on except from a light lit
at a high vantage point. Why do you think the darkspawn barrel for the
tower and blow up the bridge? To give them the vantage point for their own forces because they know if they don't all heck will break loose on their heads. It's likely why the mages flee, as well.

Loghain is in the flanking position facing the the back of the darkspawn--assuming he's
not an utter military idiot. The point is for Cailin's troops [that he shouldn't be leading] drive them towards Loghain's position so they can be dropped on by arrows just before both  Loghain's forcers hit them from the rear.

It's why the mage catches up to you on the other side of the bridge. He was positioned in Ostagar above the fight, obviously.

He's trying to bottleneck the darkspawn. It's a good idea--if it works. He has no plan he can change--he's between two walls of mountain. Either go forward or retreat. There is no "changing the battle plan mid-battle" because there's only two directions he can go. Forward--kill all his men because there's no army on the other side of the darkspawn any more. Retreat backwards--live to fight another day.

Watch those scenes again. I watched them over and over because I thought the art was spectacular. Stand on the bridge for a few minutes before you enter the tower and you'll see it quite clearly. The archers are on the bridge for a reason.

[Swifty]

Morroian wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Duncan who lies from the get-go about what being a Gray Warden really means? That Duncan?

You'd take Duncan's word over the man who freed a country by waging war much of his adult life? A guy who sat around a monastary drinking it up with other GW's and batting about a few darkspawn occassionally?

I take it you haven't read the books, you really need to read The Calling if you going to make those sort of judgements about Duncan.

I'm going on in-game only. Apparently the books only back up my position on Loghain, anyway.

As for Duncan/Loghain/Anora/Alistair--I see them all as having good points and bad points.

Howe, I can't say yet because as far as 2 elves and a mage were concerned, pure evil. However since he just slaughtered my human family I'd at least like to hear the wretch's reasons before I lop off his head.

[Swifty]

Addai67 wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Duncan refuses to acknowledge that Cailin could lose.

I swear, you must be playing a different game than the rest of us.  Right after you meet Cailan, there is that whole chat with Duncan where he expresses his doubt about their ability to win the battle.  He wants Cailan to wait for reinforcements.

In other words--when he knows the front troops have already lost the line and Cailin is dead.

Now you're just making stuff up.

So, you're telling me that Loghain would defy the king in front of all his troops when Cailin's orders were obvious? And that all his troops would disobey the order of  the King if he was still alive?

That's not "making it up" it a logical assumption that he does not retreat unless he's pretty sure Cailin is dead.

[Addai]

From Loghain's position you see darkspawn below him. Not in front of him. Yes, he's going to charge from the side/rear... this is what flanking means. Now how, pray tell, given your own assessment of Loghain's vantage point, does he know that Cailan is dead?



The change in the battle plan I refer to is to not wait for the beacon. If Loghain has a clear enough view of the field to know that the battle is a loss, then much earlier than that he has a clear enough view to know that he needs to charge or lose the field. Assuming, of course, that he wanted to win the field...



The mage you encounter in the Tower of Ishal (only if you are not a PC mage, BTW) is obviously not with the main force of mages, but one assigned to Loghain's men who are guarding the tower. His appearance means nothing as regards the main force, and obviously he did not come from Loghain's position either or Loghain would know why the beacon is delayed.

[Swifty]

Morroian wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Not really. It's a simple statement of respect to the writers. They manipulated a hatred of Loghain very well from the start of the game and seeded the game with foreshadowing that Loghain was not quite the villian he appeared.

There were indications in the game that Loghain's intentions were not necessarily bad. That doesn't make him a hero or mean that he was right.

Well that's been my point all along as well. He's not some raging degenerate--he's misguided, he's mucked up some things, he's no politician that's for sure and his own overwhelming patriotism blinds him to other realities.

It doesn't make him evil--it makes him human.

Same as Duncan. What the GW do to their recruits and love him or hate him, Duncan is a party to all that deception and actively carries it out for "the greater good".

In a sense, he and Loghain are very much alike in that respect.

Not one major character in this story is "good"--they are all mixes of gray, depending on what viewpoint one chooses to argue for them. All of them have defensible positions [with the possible exception of Howe] about what they feel is the "greatest good".

[Addai]

Swifty wrote...
In other words--when he knows the front troops have already lost the line and Cailin is dead.

???  I am referring to the discussion you have with Duncan when you first enter Ostagar.  He tells you that he has doubts about their ability to win the battle and that he wants Cailan to wait for reinforcements.  They have obviously discussed this, because Duncan also tells you that Cailan doesn't want to wait.  Alistair, when you first meet him, tells you that he doesn't think Cailan can win and only Loghain can secure a victory.

So, you're telling me that Loghain would defy the king in front of all his troops when Cailin's orders were obvious? And that all his troops would disobey the order of  the King if he was still alive?

That's not "making it up" it a logical assumption that he does not retreat unless he's pretty sure Cailin is dead.

They retreat because Loghain orders them to.  And yes, he has to bully Cauthrien to do it.  Loghain orders them to as he is gazing at the beacon, not at the battlefield below him.  There is no possible way for Loghain to know that Cailan is dead.  We don't even know that Cailan is dead at that point.  The events seem to be happening simultaneously, although in the cutscene I believe you see Loghain's retreat first and Cailan's death/Duncan's killing of the ogre just afterwards.

I don't think that Loghain could have saved Cailan.  However, he could have helped secure a retreat for what was left of the king's army.  Instead he left those men to the darkspawn.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mars 2010 - 10:42 .