346 réponses à ce sujet

[Swifty]

Personally I think Alistair is the kind of arhetype hero I can easily identify with, while Loghain represents what I secretly fear I might turn into when trying to win.

Absolutely. Loghain is the darkside Luke He's the guy who represents "Just how far will you go to save Fereldon? How many hard choices will you make and how many will die while you're fumbling about trying to make those choices?"

I think that's what makes the game deep.

Alistair is sort of the up-front good guy who turns out to be not quite so good when you look at it deeply. He's vulnerable. Alistair wouldn't deliberately hurt anyone, he'd do it because he bumbled or because his feelings were hurt.  An example of this is that if we listen to Alistair instead of our reason and look for a better solution--we'd chop off Connor's head because he's possessed. It comes down to a question of "the best intentions" doing tremendous damage.

Loghain is scary because he does what he does and he doesn't apologize. He's the "man's man" who threw out the oppressors and doesn't see why he should answer to the people whom he freed--particularly the noble class who are benefitting from his sacrifices while they suck up wine and cake and marry effete Orlesians. In Connor's case--Loghain would chop of his head because he's a threat to the villagers and knights--not for some sentimental or religous reasons.

Either way, Connor would be dead if the MC didn't intervene.

The MC is the mitigating factor in both those dicotomies. The brilliance of the game is that the MC stands between those two sides and says, "What is the best outcome for as many people as possible if I make X decision?" or, one can be as harsh as Loghain and say, "For the greater good I will do X." or "Gee I don't want to hurt anyone" like Alistair and  fumble the ball out of good intentions.

Sometimes the sort of leadership in a deeper game is that you must make decisions based on the "right choice" not the "good choice" because in a complex world, they aren't always the same thing.

What I found interesting is that for all his flaws, Loghain is exceptionally loyal once he realizes that you will save Fereldon and put it first--whether you execute him or GW him. Alistair the good guy will betray you out of personal weakness. I thought that was brilliant writing, really.

Alistair is the kindly and somewhat ineffective ruler as is Harrowmount. Although the writers do happily-ever-aftering with him, based on his ingame behaviour I truly would not want that man running a country. Loghain is the hardball choice--he's effective to the point of ruthlessness. He won't make errors based on indecision and waffling--he'll make them ruthlessly to ensure Fereldon's autonomy. Would I want him running the country either? No.

Both of them need to be the second-in-command with someone sensible ruling the place. Frankly my ultimate choice much as I personally wanted to sheild bash her, would be Anora with her father as advisor and Alistair as hubby. That tripod could hold a country in the strongest possible position with each side holding the other in check.

Of course that would mean Alistair growing up and seeing beyond his own agenda. I suspect that Loghain, abrasive as he is, would conceede frequently due to his love of Anora.

[Xandurpein]

One of the reasons I decided to save Loghain, roleplaying it, was that I belived Loghain expected me to kill him and I decided  that my character didn't want to become like him.

I think that Alistair can grow up a lot, although I think it's going to be hard if Loghain is still alive. He may need to realize the hollowness of vengeance before he can grow beyond it. I also agree with you that ultimately Anora is the real ruler. I think that she needs someone to help her see the human perspective a bit more, so I think Anora may be better off with Alistair as main adviser rather than Loghain. But it's Alistair that complements Anora, not the other way around.

Then again I always figured the ideal partner and adviser for Anora was my Michael Cousland:innocent:

[Swifty]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Alistair is the archetype of the adorable but spoiled nobleman who inherits the throne. It's very deliberate arch typing. It's an archetype most people are far more comfortable with in an RPG. It's an archetype when taken to extreme becomes the landsmeet scene of hissy fitting if the MC agrees to Riordan's wishes and GW's Loghain.

I would have to disagree here. Alistair is almost the opposite of that. Have you even spoken to him? He was a bastard child that was raised like a servant, sleeping in the stables and kennels, told he'd never be king, then shipped off to the Chantry because he was inconvinient. The only reason he is being pressured to take the throne is because there are no other options, in Eamon's eyes. He is a useful pawn to Eamon, but hardly a "spoiled noble". He was raised as common as they come. He is more the archtype of the unwilling king that rises from obscurity, and the flawed hero who can be undone by his own failings.

I rather respected him more for getting pissed off at the Landsmeet for sparing Loghain. Even if it was inconvinient and made me lose him in the playthrough where I spared Loghain, and the ass-chewing he gave me after. Because in a way, he was absolutely right.

Loghain is a victim of his own legend, his own stubborn pride and ethical arrogance. To me, he is the archetype of the obsessive general who is so tunnel-visioned, he'd rather see the country annihilated than occupied. Even after beating sense into him, he still stubbornly says that knowing what he knows now, he would have still done things the same way.

Yes I talked to Alistair. He slept in the kennels because he felt more comfortable there amongst the dogs because they'd love him unconditionally, not because someone forced him in there.

I see Alistair as flawed opposite to Loghain. He's flawed because he wants everyone to love him. That's what makes him vulnerable and adorable and he plays on everyone's sympathies. He tries puppyishly to make everyone like him.

Which is his flaw as a king. The Bannorn would chew him up and spit him out--regardless of the written happy ending. Eamon uses him and quite easily. Tossed him aside for years now wants him to become king? In fact, he runs off to be a drunk in some of them because he can't face life on its own terms. All it would take is murmurs of love and sympathy and Alistair would jump through hoops.

Yes he was shipped off, pushed around yadda yadda and yes, I felt great sympathy for him. The fact is, he's now a man and a potential king and still can't look past his overwhelming need for love.

He was also raised in a time where Fereldon was already free. If sleeping in the dog kennels is the worst that's ever happened to him compared to the lives of his predecessors who were raped, slaughtered in their beds and made into slaves it's rather cushy. Compare that to Loghain's history where that was what he had to live with and fought to stop.

Loghain does not care who loves him. He pushes aside all emotional attachment to focus on what's on hand. He's no dreamer. His flaws are based on the fact that he's aware of the Orlesian threat and will go to any extreme to prevent it. What I found bizarre in the game is that the conquest was only 30 years ago but none of the NPCs really discuss it much. That's simply not realistic and it's one of the reasons people who play don't understand why Loghain is so wound up about it.

It's easy to say, "Oh better under the Orlesians than yadda yadda" but the whole point of Loghain is he percieves threat from experience [one that Alistair never had] how dangerous the Orlesians are and what appears to be an obscure threat of darkspawn, who unless he's utterly stupid about international politics, the dwarves have been bashing about, forever. In Loghain's mind the practical threat is more eminent. Alistair and the MC see the darkspawn threat as more imminent with information that Loghain lacks.

I agree with you about Eamon. It's precisely why I don't trust Eamon's perspective. He trots out Alistair for political convenience and it's one of the many reasons that Alistair should not be king--he's too naive to see when he's being used if the person using him, offers him love. That's not a trick Loghain would fall for.

Alistair cannot see the "bigger picture" even when you try to explain it. Yet, Loghain does as soon as he actually realizes how strong the darkspawn threat has become.

The MC certainly doesn't "become Loghain" anywhere but in Alistair's mind if one GW's Loghain. There's a number of compelling reasons to GW him--including loyalty to the Gray Wardens because Riordan IS your superior officer. Riordan gives compelling reasons--there's a shortage of GW's and what does Alistair do when Loghain is recruited? Bails. So where exactly is Alistair's loyalty to the GW if he can bail out of a superior's orders? Again, he sees that as now the GW and the MC don't love him any more and he plays on that guilt.

Yes Alistair feels hurt if you don't execute Loghain. Understandably so. The problem is that he is letting his feelings get in the way of what may be a perfectly logical, or kind, or practical decision [depending on how you play it] on not only the MC's part--but Riordan's.

Loghain chasing the GWs isn't personal--it's political. It's something that Alistair, because he needs love so badly, fails to understand.

The MC is in a balancing act between those two archtypes.

Modifié par Swifty, 10 mars 2010 - 02:15 .

[Xandurpein]

In a sense the real power struggle in Fereldan, post Loghain, is between Anora and Arl Eamon, and Alistair is as much a pawn as anything else. Viewed that way it's virtually a copy of the dwarven situation. Anora/Bhelen vs Harrowmount/Eamon.

[Swifty]

Xandurpein wrote...

In a sense the real power struggle in Fereldan, post Loghain, is between Anora and Arl Eamon, and Alistair is as much a pawn as anything else. Viewed that way it's virtually a copy of the dwarven situation. Anora/Bhelen vs Harrowmount/Eamon.

Actually Harrowmount would be Alistair IMO. That's why I wouldn't want him on the throne without Anora much as personally I despised the manipulative wench.

Did you marry Anora? How did that work for ya?

[Xandurpein]

If you marry you get a few extra conversation lines from Anora. If you try to make too much of the fact that you are going to be King, she will be swift to put you in place and make sure you realize that you are only her consort.

At the post coronation scene she will during the conversation suddenly sound a bit shy and say that they are already planning our wedding and ask if you are nervous. Admit that you are and she'll sound relieved and admit that she is too as the player is a bit intimidating after all.

The end title says that you will together usher a new Golden Age for Fereldan, unless you start fighting for power, which I take as covering both the possibility of the player marrying Anora in good faith and the player just try to grab power.

All in all it's pretty open, but I think there is enough snippets in the story to make me believe it could be possible to end up reasonably happy with her, as long as you respect that you are the one supporting her and not the other way around. Then again I might just be easily manipulated...
I don't expect to see too much development of that relationship in Awakening, but I will eagerly look for any clues I might find.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 mars 2010 - 02:47 .

[SurelyForth]

Swifty wrote...

Yes I talked to Alistair. He slept in the kennels because he felt more comfortable there amongst the dogs because they'd love him unconditionally, not because someone forced him in there.

I see Alistair as flawed opposite to Loghain. He's flawed because he wants everyone to love him. That's what makes him vulnerable and adorable and he plays on everyone's sympathies. He tries puppyishly to make everyone like him.

Which is his flaw as a king. The Bannorn would chew him up and spit him out--regardless of the written happy ending. Eamon uses him and quite easily. Tossed him aside for years now wants him to become king? In fact, he runs off to be a drunk in some of them because he can't face life on its own terms. All it would take is murmurs of love and sympathy and Alistair would jump through hoops.

Yes he was shipped off, pushed around yadda yadda and yes, I felt great sympathy for him. The fact is, he's now a man and a potential king and still can't look past his overwhelming need for love.

Where does Alistair ever say he slept with the dogs because he wanted to? I've played this game a lot and the only thing I can think of that alludes to what you're saying is that the Arlessa made sure the castle didn't feel like a home to him and it is a fair leap to extrapolate "I slept with dogs because they loved me" from that.

And Alistair doesn't try to be loved by everyone. He is civil to most the other companions, but he's not going way out of his way to make them like him. He can be pretty curt, even in a friendly conversation. He can also hate your guts and know that you hate him yet he still rolls along with you because he can't fight the Blight on his own.

So the epilogues are misleading if they say anything positive about Alistair...because you don't like him? If you've read the books, you would know that (hardened) Alistair is Maric 2.0 and Maric was a good king.

In Loghain's mind the practical threat is more eminent. Alistair and the MC see the darkspawn threat as more imminent with information that Loghain lacks.

Alistair cannot see the "bigger picture" even when you try to explain it. Yet, Loghain does as soon as he actually realizes how strong the darkspawn threat has become.

 
This argument, that Loghain honestly didn't believe the darkspawn were a threat, makes NO SENSE to me if you also believe that he retreated at Ostagar because he genuinely thought that his entire army would be wiped out if he attacked after the beacon was lit. Did he think that the overwhelming number of darkspawn at Ostagar would just...evaporate the next morning? He saw with his own eyes a horde that he felt could not be defeated with his sizable army (if you believe that this is why he retreated) and yet you give him a free pass for conveniently forgetting that to focus on the total non-threat from the Orlesians?

And you get one chance to kind of explain to Alistair about the "Big Picture". The game prevents you from going much deeper than "We need all the help we can get" (which he does volley with a pretty good point- that Loghain's track record against the Blight has done more for the darkspawn than Ferelden).

The MC certainly doesn't "become Loghain" anywhere but in Alistair's mind if one GW's Loghain. There's a number of compelling reasons to GW him--including loyalty to the Gray Wardens because Riordan IS your superior officer. Riordan gives compelling reasons--there's a shortage of GW's and what does Alistair do when Loghain is recruited? Bails. So where exactly is Alistair's loyalty to the GW if he can bail out of a superior's orders? Again, he sees that as now the GW and the MC don't love him any more and he plays on that guilt.

Yes Alistair feels hurt if you don't execute Loghain. Understandably so. The problem is that he is letting his feelings get in the way of what may be a perfectly logical, or kind, or practical decision [depending on how you play it] on not only the MC's part--but Riordan's.

Loghain chasing the GWs isn't personal--it's political. It's something that Alistair, because he needs love so badly, fails to understand.

The MC is in a balancing act between those two archtypes.

Actually, yes, the PC can become Loghain-esque even if you kill Loghain (especially if you do, actually). By the time you get the the Landsmeet, you're the same unstoppable force of nature that Loghain was during the rebellion. Your best friend is the heir to the throne of Ferelden and you have cut a swath of bloody damage through the country (and have possibly done some pretty cold things on the way, all that could be justified for being for the greater good). If you beat Loghain, and then you beat the Blight, and then you advise Alistair as either his wife or Chancellor, your arc is pretty much exactly what Loghain's was, minus maybe starting out in a higher position than him.

Riordan never gives the order to recruit Loghain- he suggests it. I don't think he considers himself your superior, only a senior Warden. And, since you aren't actually officially Alistair's commander, he doesn't defy anyone's orders.

And Loghain's whole vendetta against the Wardens is personal, because he associates them with Orlais even if he has no reason to. They are also loose cannons who could expose his misdeeds at Ostagar and undo his entire, tenuous claim that he is willing to do anything to save his country.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 mars 2010 - 03:02 .

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

Actually, yes, the PC can become Loghain-esque even if you kill Loghain (especially if you do, actually). By the time you get the the Landsmeet, you're the same unstoppable force of nature that Loghain was during the rebellion. Your best friend is the heir to the throne of Ferelden and you have cut a swath of bloody damage through the country (and have possibly done some pretty cold things on the way, all that could be justified for being for the greater good). If you beat Loghain, and then you beat the Blight, and then you advise Alistair as either his wife or Chancellor, you're arc is pretty much exactly what Loghain's was, minus maybe starting out in a higher position than him.

It's kind of interesting that female human nobles have a much greater chance at grabbing a lot of real power than men, as it will be a lot easier to be the 'true power' behind Alistair, than behind Anora.

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

This argument, that Loghain honestly didn't believe the darkspawn were a threat, makes NO SENSE to me if you also believe that he retreated at Ostagar because he genuinely thought that his entire army would be wiped out if he attacked after the beacon was lit. Did he think that the overwhelming number of darkspawn at Ostagar would just...evaporate the next morning? He saw with his own eyes a horde that he felt could not be defeated with his sizable army (if you believe that this is why he retreated) and yet you give him a free pass for conveniently forgetting that to focus on the total non-threat from the Orlesians?

I think it all comes down to the prophecy Maric and Loghain recieves in "The Stolen Throne". Maric and Loghain each recieves a prophecy. Maric that the Blight is coming shortly after his death and Loghain that he will betray Maric three times. Loghain refuse to accept this prophecy as he is devoted to Maric. It therefore becomes an article of faith for Loghain tha there is no true Blight as this proves that the prohpecies where wrong and he won't betray Maric. It is of course all in the nature of the tragic hero that he fullfills his own prophecy by trying to avoid it.

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...

It's kind of interesting that female human nobles have a much greater chance at grabbing a lot of real power than men, as it will be a lot easier to be the 'true power' behind Alistair, than behind Anora.

Yeah, if you're queen and chancellor to an unhardened Alistair, you are pretty much unstoppable. There's an indication in the epilogues that someone who marries him for political reasons only has even more authority, but that's debatable (it doesn't specify if the leeway he gives his non-beloved bride is political or personal).

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

It's kind of interesting that female human nobles have a much greater chance at grabbing a lot of real power than men, as it will be a lot easier to be the 'true power' behind Alistair, than behind Anora.

Yeah, if you're queen and chancellor to an unhardened Alistair, you are pretty much unstoppable. There's an indication in the epilogues that someone who marries him for political reasons only has even more authority, but that's debatable (it doesn't specify if the leeway he gives his non-beloved bride is political or personal).

Chancellor to an unhardened Alistair has hands down more authority.  As a political wife, you may be seen as the new ruler by the people, but as Chancellor (with the exception of the HNF bride who does not get the card) to an unhardened Alistair, you sit on the throne, and the court business grinds to a halt when you're not there.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

It's kind of interesting that female human nobles have a much greater chance at grabbing a lot of real power than men, as it will be a lot easier to be the 'true power' behind Alistair, than behind Anora.

Yeah, if you're queen and chancellor to an unhardened Alistair, you are pretty much unstoppable. There's an indication in the epilogues that someone who marries him for political reasons only has even more authority, but that's debatable (it doesn't specify if the leeway he gives his non-beloved bride is political or personal).

Chancellor to an unhardened Alistair has hands down more authority.  As a political wife, you may be seen as the new ruler by the people, but as Chancellor (with the exception of the HNF bride who does not get the card) to an unhardened Alistair, you sit on the throne, and the court business grinds to a halt when you're not there.

So you think that Queen Chancellor will have less authority than Not-Queen Chancellor? I assume that there's no card because they only allow for so many, but the game acknowledges you are Chancellor when you talk to Eamon. I figure it's the perfect fix for the princes-consort crap- you have a King who will do everything you say and a court who knows who the real authority is.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 mars 2010 - 03:20 .

[rak72]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Swifty wrote:
Both of them need to be the second-in-command with someone sensible
ruling the place. Frankly my ultimate choice much as I personally
wanted to sheild bash her, would be Anora with her father as advisor
and Alistair as hubby. That tripod could hold a country in the
strongest possible position with each side holding the other in check.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was basicly the situation you has with Calin/Anora/Logain - didn't work out too good

[Herr Uhl]

rak72 wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Both of them need to be the second-in-command with someone sensible ruling the place. Frankly my ultimate choice much as I personally wanted to sheild bash her, would be Anora with her father as advisor
and Alistair as hubby. That tripod could hold a country in the strongest possible position with each side holding the other in check.

This was basicly the situation you has with Calin/Anora/Logain - didn't work out too good

I thought it worked swell until Ostagar. Cailan was the weak link anyways.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 10 mars 2010 - 03:24 .

[rak72]

If Logain listened to Cailan, and waited for the Orlesion Wardens, the whole mess would have been avoided. But, as Alistair astutely points out, Logain & Anora think they are the only ones who can fix anything, and everyone else better get the hell out of the way.

[Xandurpein]

Herr Uhl wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Swifty wrote...
Both of them need to be the second-in-command with someone sensible ruling the place. Frankly my ultimate choice much as I personally wanted to sheild bash her, would be Anora with her father as advisor
and Alistair as hubby. That tripod could hold a country in the strongest possible position with each side holding the other in check.

This was basicly the situation you has with Calin/Anora/Logain - didn't work out too good

I thought it worked swell until Ostagar. Cailan was the weak link anyways.

I also think Alistair would make a whole lot better King than Cailan. Alistair may be weak in some respects, but he is not the overconfident pup Cailan was.

Also it would have worked out a lot better if Anora had the final say so in politics. The balance was upset because Cailan decided to play politician and not bring in Anora on the decison over Orlais. If Cailan had been consort then it would have been up to Anora to decide. Anora would probably not be jubilant about the Grey Wardens, but at least she doesn't have the same rabid hate of Orleasians that Loghain have, and she would have a lot better chance to bring Loghain around if need be too.

[spottyblanket]

I don't think this is the last of Longain. I mean is he going to be in awakenings if you made the story go that way, I'm looking forward to that

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

It's kind of interesting that female human nobles have a much greater chance at grabbing a lot of real power than men, as it will be a lot easier to be the 'true power' behind Alistair, than behind Anora.

Yeah, if you're queen and chancellor to an unhardened Alistair, you are pretty much unstoppable. There's an indication in the epilogues that someone who marries him for political reasons only has even more authority, but that's debatable (it doesn't specify if the leeway he gives his non-beloved bride is political or personal).

Chancellor to an unhardened Alistair has hands down more authority.  As a political wife, you may be seen as the new ruler by the people, but as Chancellor (with the exception of the HNF bride who does not get the card) to an unhardened Alistair, you sit on the throne, and the court business grinds to a halt when you're not there.

So you think that Queen Chancellor will have less authority than Not-Queen Chancellor? I assume that there's no card because they only allow for so many, but the game acknowledges you are Chancellor when you talk to Eamon. I figure it's the perfect fix for the princes-consort crap- you have a King who will do everything you say and a court who knows who the real authority is.

Epilogue card says nothing of it, though.  That was my only point.  Chancellor is the true power with an unhardened Alistair, but you can't use the ending of the HNF who marries him for any reason to back it up. 

Edit: LOL, I wasn't saying she didn't have the same power as chancellor.  I only said that the HNF who marries Alistair doesn't get the card.   And a HNF who marries Alistair for political reasons but does not become his chancellor doesn't have the same power for sure.  She is viewed by the people as their savior and new ruler, but it's the Chancellor who is clearly the ruler of the nation, with the business of the court grinding to a standstill when (s)he's gone.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 mars 2010 - 03:48 .

[Swifty]

SurelyForth wrote...

Swifty wrote...

Yes I talked to Alistair. He slept in the kennels because he felt more comfortable there amongst the dogs because they'd love him unconditionally, not because someone forced him in there.

I see Alistair as flawed opposite to Loghain. He's flawed because he wants everyone to love him. That's what makes him vulnerable and adorable and he plays on everyone's sympathies. He tries puppyishly to make everyone like him.

Which is his flaw as a king. The Bannorn would chew him up and spit him out--regardless of the written happy ending. Eamon uses him and quite easily. Tossed him aside for years now wants him to become king? In fact, he runs off to be a drunk in some of them because he can't face life on its own terms. All it would take is murmurs of love and sympathy and Alistair would jump through hoops.

Yes he was shipped off, pushed around yadda yadda and yes, I felt great sympathy for him. The fact is, he's now a man and a potential king and still can't look past his overwhelming need for love.

Where does Alistair ever say he slept with the dogs because he wanted to? I've played this game a lot and the only thing I can think of that alludes to what you're saying is that the Arlessa made sure the castle didn't feel like a home to him and it is a fair leap to extrapolate "I slept with dogs because they loved me" from that.

And Alistair doesn't try to be loved by everyone. He is civil to most the other companions, but he's not going way out of his way to make them like him. He can be pretty curt, even in a friendly conversation. He can also hate your guts and know that you hate him yet he still rolls along with you because he can't fight the Blight on his own.

So the epilogues are misleading if they say anything positive about Alistair...because you don't like him? If you've read the books, you would know that (hardened) Alistair is Maric 2.0 and Maric was a good king.

Was he? Everyone baws about the elf-selling but did Maric give them a seat at the council? Is there a single elf nobleman? Maric's a great king if you're noble--questionable if you're a minority. Had that happened then Loghain would be in no position to elf-sell in the first place. That doesn't excuse him--it puts into political and historical context how he was able to get away with it and why as a City Elf, it didn't sway a single vote.

Stop putting words down I didn't say. I don't dislike Alistair--I say he's a good second hand man but as ruler of a country? We spend the entire game soothing his hurt feelings and trying to make him feel wanted and loved [if you want points with him]--those are not qualities of leadership in a volatile country under the threat of invasion from both the Orlesians and the Bersaad. The darkspawn may be immediate but they are fantasy critters that can be defeated by GW "magic" that even the MC does not know about until after Loghain is recruited or not. Yet you persist in ignoring that obvious piece of information, as well.

In Loghain's mind the practical threat is more eminent. Alistair and the MC see the darkspawn threat as more imminent with information that Loghain lacks.

Alistair cannot see the "bigger picture" even when you try to explain it. Yet, Loghain does as soon as he actually realizes how strong the darkspawn threat has become.

 
This argument, that Loghain honestly didn't believe the darkspawn were a threat, makes NO SENSE to me if you also believe that he retreated at Ostagar because he genuinely thought that his entire army would be wiped out if he attacked after the beacon was lit. Did he think that the overwhelming number of darkspawn at Ostagar would just...evaporate the next morning? He saw with his own eyes a horde that he felt could not be defeated with his sizable army (if you believe that this is why he retreated) and yet you give him a free pass for conveniently forgetting that to focus on the total non-threat from the Orlesians?

The Orlesians are no "non-threat"--they are a mere 30 years ago and clearly a danger to all and sundry. Why do you continue to argue what is a historical obviousness?

And you get one chance to kind of explain to Alistair about the "Big Picture". The game prevents you from going much deeper than "We need all the help we can get" (which he does volley with a pretty good point- that Loghain's track record against the Blight has done more for the darkspawn than Ferelden).

The MC certainly doesn't "become Loghain" anywhere but in Alistair's mind if one GW's Loghain. There's a number of compelling reasons to GW him--including loyalty to the Gray Wardens because Riordan IS your superior officer. Riordan gives compelling reasons--there's a shortage of GW's and what does Alistair do when Loghain is recruited? Bails. So where exactly is Alistair's loyalty to the GW if he can bail out of a superior's orders? Again, he sees that as now the GW and the MC don't love him any more and he plays on that guilt.

Yes Alistair feels hurt if you don't execute Loghain. Understandably so. The problem is that he is letting his feelings get in the way of what may be a perfectly logical, or kind, or practical decision [depending on how you play it] on not only the MC's part--but Riordan's.

Loghain chasing the GWs isn't personal--it's political. It's something that Alistair, because he needs love so badly, fails to understand.

The MC is in a balancing act between those two archtypes.

Actually, yes, the PC can become Loghain-esque even if you kill Loghain (especially if you do, actually). By the time you get the the Landsmeet, you're the same unstoppable force of nature that Loghain was during the rebellion.


You're arguing here the same thing I'm saying actually. If one recruits Loghain because the MC questions their own moral right to simply execute him in a fit of pique as the all-powerful fleeting feeling it gives to smack down one's oppressor or whether the MC still believes that there is some hope left for the or a need for more GW's to fight in the cause.


Your best friend is the heir to the throne of Ferelden and you have cut a swath of bloody damage through the country (and have possibly done some pretty cold things on the way, all that could be justified for being for the greater good). If you beat Loghain, and then you beat the Blight, and then you advise Alistair as either his wife or Chancellor, your arc is pretty much exactly what Loghain's was, minus maybe starting out in a higher position than him.

Riordan never gives the order to recruit Loghain- he suggests it. I don't think he considers himself your superior, only a senior Warden. And, since you aren't actually officially Alistair's commander, he doesn't defy anyone's orders.

I've never said the MC is Alistair's commander. What I said is that Riordon is the Senior Gray Warden. Which is he so there's no denying that "suggestion" or not--Riordon is clearly, as the Senior Warden, advising on the side of recruiting Loghain. He's quite clear about why as well. There's no denying that in this case, Alistair is going against the wishes of a superior by demanding Loghain's death and quits the GW if he doesn't get his own way right before the biggest darkspawn battle. Yet, Alistair knows the threat far better than Loghain yet he'd quit on the eve of battle? That's not even justifiable in my view. Loghain doesn't have the info about darkspawn that Alistair has--he's somewhat blind to it. Alistair is not--and quits, knowing full well his actions could result in all of Fereldon falling to the darkspawn without him and he quits for personal reasons. That's moral?

It's why I say they are opposite archetypes and neither of them should be ruling the land. Both are great second in commands, neither is fit to rule.

As Alistair's "best friend" I am going to give him what I believe to be the best advice I can. If he throws a hissy fit instead of acting like an adult or doing the nasty himself and yes, when he was king alone my MC  made him do it since my MC wasn't doing his dirty work for him.

Then my MC packed up and left the country because she was disgusted with the whole affair.

And Loghain's whole vendetta against the Wardens is personal, because he associates them with Orlais even if he has no reason to. They are also loose cannons who could expose his misdeeds at Ostagar and undo his entire, tenuous claim that he is willing to do anything to save his country.

The GW are also threats to the crown in Loghain's view because they are a mercenary force that has not sworn fealty to Fereldon as well as how he percieves their actions at Ostagar. Don't know how many times I can repeat that. The threat of invasion isn't "tenuous" if you've any understanding of genocide, colonialization or the horrors of invasion. It's real, it's dangerous and it's a plausible reaction on Loghain's part. Just ask the East Timorians. Bringing in  the Orlesians to help Fereldon would be the same as the Timorians asking Iraq to just waltz back in and commit some more wholesale slaughter. It's a very real threat. It is, in fact, a more real threat than the darkspawn in the view of both Loghain and the nobles, obviously and I've pointed out why, a number of times.

If Loghain did NOT have the majority of the Bannorn on his side there would be no reason to convince them that he's "evil" because they would already know and have chucked him out long before Alistair and the MC arrive. So obviously--they don't "get" the darkspawn threat either, until the MC brings it to their attention. Either that or they simply don't care. Or those that have lived under the Orlesians see them as just as evil as Loghain does. Take your pick.

[rak72]

Alistair actually takes responsibility and duty very seriously, that is why he is so reluctant to take it. He wants to be able to do the best job he possibly can, and does not want to screw up. People a lot less capable than Ali will gladly grab power because they don't care about doing a good job, they just want the power. When Ali finally comes to terms that this is his lot in life, he will dedicate himself fully to the responsibilities.

[ejoslin]

rak72 wrote...

Alistair actually takes responsibility and duty very seriously, that is why he is so reluctant to take it. He wants to be able to do the best job he possibly can, and does not want to screw up. People a lot less capable than Ali will gladly grab power because they don't care about doing a good job, they just want the power. When Ali finally comes to terms that this is his lot in life, he will dedicate himself fully to the responsibilities.

Only hardened Alistair.  Unhardened Alistair does NOT take that responsibility and duty seriously at all.  

[Swifty]

ejoslin wrote...


Chancellor to an unhardened Alistair has hands down more authority.  As a political wife, you may be seen as the new ruler by the people, but as Chancellor (with the exception of the HNF bride who does not get the card) to an unhardened Alistair, you sit on the throne, and the court business grinds to a halt when you're not there.

Actually makes sense because Alistair is lovable but weak. I rather resented being the one to "harden" him because he's an adult and if I "harden" him again--it's his need for companionship/love that is driving his agenda rather than him maturing due to his experiences.

Frankly, I found it a weird bit of writing, myself.

[Swifty]

rak72 wrote...

Alistair actually takes responsibility and duty very seriously, that is why he is so reluctant to take it. He wants to be able to do the best job he possibly can, and does not want to screw up. People a lot less capable than Ali will gladly grab power because they don't care about doing a good job, they just want the power. When Ali finally comes to terms that this is his lot in life, he will dedicate himself fully to the responsibilities.

IMO bailing on the eve of battle is not "dedicated"--it's the mark of immaturity. That's where Alistair and I parted ways as far as my belief in him ruling as King alone, went.

Loghain takes duty seriously as well, whether people want to accept that or not. He may be misguided about it but he's serious.

[spottyblanket]

Alister is supposed to be a mix between Xander from Buffy the vampire slayer and Malcom from Firefly. I dunno about the Malcom part, but Alistar is Xanderish, no question. Cept without the friend bond thing...

[Swifty]

So you think that Queen Chancellor will have less authority than Not-Queen Chancellor? I assume that there's no card because they only allow for so many, but the game acknowledges you are Chancellor when you talk to Eamon. I figure it's the perfect fix for the princes-consort crap- you have a King who will do everything you say and a court who knows who the real authority is.

Hahahaha! Loved this--gonna have to play it one day. Now that's irony at its best:O