64 réponses à ce sujet

[Lara Denton]

errant_knight wrote...

I think that was the point in making the line so...unobvious a choice. Much of the dialogue in the game isn't what it appears to be on the surface. That's part of gameplay. If it were obvious what that does everyone would pick it everytime.

That would make sense if that crappy line wouldn't change so much and if it would actually hint that is there for another reason than to kinda give Alistair a cold shoulder. With Leliana it's pretty obvious that what you're saying is making a change. I think that in Alistair's case they just edited the dialog lines without giving too much though about what they were doing.

Modifié par laradenton, 27 mars 2010 - 02:02 .

[SurelyForth]

laradenton wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think that was the point in making the line so...unobvious a choice. Much of the dialogue in the game isn't what it appears to be on the surface. That's part of gameplay. If it were obvious what that does everyone would pick it everytime.

That would make sense if that crappy line wouldn't change so much and if it would actually hint that is there for another reason than to kinda give Alistair a cold shoulder. With Leliana it's pretty obvious that what you're saying is making a change. I think that in Alistair's case they just edited the dialog lines without giving too much though about what they were doing.

Yeah, it bothers me on a character development level that Leliana, who is largely inconsequential to the plot, gets this whole conversation and Alistair, who is so central, gets reduced to that one. 

[Kryyptehk]

SurelyForth wrote...

laradenton wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think that was the point in making the line so...unobvious a choice. Much of the dialogue in the game isn't what it appears to be on the surface. That's part of gameplay. If it were obvious what that does everyone would pick it everytime.

That would make sense if that crappy line wouldn't change so much and if it would actually hint that is there for another reason than to kinda give Alistair a cold shoulder. With Leliana it's pretty obvious that what you're saying is making a change. I think that in Alistair's case they just edited the dialog lines without giving too much though about what they were doing.

Yeah, it bothers me on a character development level that Leliana, who is largely inconsequential to the plot, gets this whole conversation and Alistair, who is so central, gets reduced to that one. 

I hated Leliana's hardening speech. I felt like I was making all the decisions for her and in the end all the work she had done to be a better person was for nothing. You're not telling her to be stronger, she's already plenty strong since she'll fight to the death for what she believes in.

With Alistair, you're giving him advice. I don't like the line you say to give that advice, but in the end it is his choice whether to take that advice or not. And if you are in a romance with Leliana, having that much control over her is unhealthy.

But that's my ₵₵.

And as for the lore changing mods, I downloaded that mod but never really used it. My elves wouldn't be too interested in ruling a country (or be qualified for it either) and my dwarves would rather travel or return to Orzammar to enjoy being Paragon.

[Tamyn]

errant_knight wrote...

I think that was the point in making the line so...unobvious a choice. Much of the dialogue in the game isn't what it appears to be on the surface. That's part of gameplay. If it were obvious what that does everyone would pick it everytime.

Perhaps, but I would at least like a better idea of what my character is actually meaning in that case. Or she meant it in that negative way and Alistair totally misunderstood it in a good way.

[SurelyForth]

Tamyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think that was the point in making the line so...unobvious a choice. Much of the dialogue in the game isn't what it appears to be on the surface. That's part of gameplay. If it were obvious what that does everyone would pick it everytime.

Perhaps, but I would at least like a better idea of what my character is actually meaning in that case. Or she meant it in that negative way and Alistair totally misunderstood it in a good way.

Well, David Gaider has confirmed that there was originally more to the conversation/different lines and they got cut. I think he even admitted that it was a pretty big moment to hinge on one line of dialogue, but it's been a few months. So basically you choose a line that says one thing but Alistair "hears" something else because something else was supposed to be there.

[Sarah1281]

It is kind of funny, though. It's basically:



PC: Where have you been? People suck.

Alistair: You're right! I've got to stand up for myself more.



It kind of reminds me of Elliot in the first season of Scrubs when she was determined to make Dr. Cox her mentor and interpreted his words accordingly.

[Lara Denton]

SurelyForth wrote...

Tamyn wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think that was the point in making the line so...unobvious a choice. Much of the dialogue in the game isn't what it appears to be on the surface. That's part of gameplay. If it were obvious what that does everyone would pick it everytime.

Perhaps, but I would at least like a better idea of what my character is actually meaning in that case. Or she meant it in that negative way and Alistair totally misunderstood it in a good way.

Well, David Gaider has confirmed that there was originally more to the conversation/different lines and they got cut. I think he even admitted that it was a pretty big moment to hinge on one line of dialogue, but it's been a few months. So basically you choose a line that says one thing but Alistair "hears" something else because something else was supposed to be there.

It makes a lot of sense then. But why did they do it? Leave it to just one line?

[Posioned]

ejoslin wrote...

In a single player game, who cares? What
annoys me is when someone mods their game and then says their endings
happen in a non-modded game and post screenshots for "proof." Ok, so
that only happened once that I know of, but it was silly.

If you're talking about the thread I think you are I was unaware my game was modded (not the only one playing it here) so I made a mistake in that. No need to get like that.

[ejoslin]

Posioned wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

In a single player game, who cares? What
annoys me is when someone mods their game and then says their endings
happen in a non-modded game and post screenshots for "proof." Ok, so
that only happened once that I know of, but it was silly.

If you're talking about the thread I think you are I was unaware my game was modded (not the only one playing it here) so I made a mistake in that. No need to get like that.

Was that you?  Nothing personal was meant -- I don't remember the people involved, just the incident!  No offense meant for sure.  I didn't name names OR details (I couldn't have even had I wanted to -- it was just a shake-my-head moment)!  Anyway, my apologies to you for offending you!

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2010 - 05:11 .

[MassEffect762]

Isn't it possible theoretically? You can become an Arl, so eventually down the line somewhere it could be possible right?

[Raklin]

Doubtful at best imo 8/

[Daere]

It would be nice if you could be with him (marriage wise) as an elf. It seems rather... insane that, (as an elf) you are good enough to save the world, choose who will be king (for humans AND dwarves) but NOT good enough to have the person you love. Rather ironic really.

Personally, I prefer not making Alistair king (as long as I don't have Anora betray me, I like her just fine and she seems to do a fine job) . I don't see my Dalish girl giving a d*^$n about birthrights or whatever. After all, why would she?

The marriage mod was nice since it was very easy to see my elf (swords in hand) glaring at anyone who would dare say 'no you can't.' Plus it was nice to see Alistair in Awakening. However, I do like my original ending best.

[Addai]

Daere wrote...

It would be nice if you could be with him (marriage wise) as an elf. It seems rather... insane that, (as an elf) you are good enough to save the world, choose who will be king (for humans AND dwarves) but NOT good enough to have the person you love. Rather ironic really.

You can marry him, you just can't make him king and marry him.

Personally, I prefer not making Alistair king (as long as I don't have Anora betray me, I like her just fine and she seems to do a fine job) . I don't see my Dalish girl giving a d*^$n about birthrights or whatever. After all, why would she?

Anora represents the status quo.  My elven characters see Alistair as an opportunity for a new day, and a monarch over whom they'll have influence.  The epilogue bears this out, though not that it changes much in the day-to-day life of elves and the relations between elves and humans.  Plus, it's his birthright and I hate to see him give it up.  All his life he was told he wasn't good enough for it.  He's not going to hear that from my PC, not if they care about him (as mine inevitably do).

The marriage mod was nice since it was very easy to see my elf (swords in hand) glaring at anyone who would dare say 'no you can't.' Plus it was nice to see Alistair in Awakening. However, I do like my original ending best.

Who am I to tell anyone what to do with their spare disk space, but it goes completely against game lore.  Not even the Hero of Ferelden can change everything.

[Daere]

Thats one of the beautiful things about a single player game. You can have differing ideas about the story and not worry about other people changing your gaming experience ;-)

As I said before, this is how I have the story worked out for me. I personally think the entire notion of a 'birthright' is laughable and I never got the impression Alistair cared about that at all. The one thing he always seemed to want to be was a Warden. The emotion he shows is for Duncan-not his King father. (Or brother for that matter)
So I see this in the opposite way as you I guess. For me, making him be king is saying he can't be what he really wants. Changing him to be something he doesn't aspire too. Telling him he doesn't deserve to be who/what he wants because of who his father was. How could you do that to someone you love?
(It just occurred to me that I view him in a little bit the same way as Nathaniel. Both trying to separate themselves from their father's 'legacies' and create their own paths. Just one was a murderous psycho and the other a king..... )

I can't picture my elf wanting influence over anyone, especially not Alistair. It would feel as if she were using him. She would lead by example and inspire others rather than manipulating and forcing change. (Which is why I prefer my ending where we go off together)
I have heard the reasoning that he is 'afraid' to be king and all that. I tried making him king at one point and I hated it. I just saw this broken, brow beaten man accepting his fate. With no joy in it. Yet when you make Anora queen-he does this delightful, relaxed laugh!

When it comes to game lore..... there are plenty of contradictions already.
Since elves are depicted as being subjugated and (generally) believed to be the 'lesser' race, isn't it rather fare fetched that the nobles (who would have the most to lose) would let one decide their fate? Grey Warden or no, it does not seem very believable to me. Which is why I have no issue with changing things around.

But again, it is a single player role playing game so you can view the story and characters anyway you like! No wrong choice! Lovely!!

Modifié par Daere, 27 mars 2010 - 12:12 .

[ejoslin]

Daere wrote...

When it comes to game lore..... there are plenty of contradictions already.
Since elves are depicted as being subjugated and (generally) believed to be the 'lesser' race, isn't it rather fare fetched that the nobles (who would have the most to lose) would let one decide their fate? Grey Warden or no, it does not seem very believable to me. Which is why I have no issue with changing things around.

But again, it is a single player role playing game so you can view the story and characters anyway you like! No wrong choice! Lovely!!

In the game, though, it's very obvious that the Warden has extraordinary charisma.  She is such a strong leader that humans defer to her.  There are very few moments where even an elf is talked down upon, and all it takes is a word for her to get an apology.

Most elves, they wouldn't listen to.  The elven warden, she's an exception, just from the sheer force of her personality.  Even Anora eludes to as much (well, she gives the same line about the warden being competent and powerful, no matter what the race).

[Daere]

ejoslin wrote...

Daere wrote...

When it comes to game lore..... there are plenty of contradictions already.
Since elves are depicted as being subjugated and (generally) believed to be the 'lesser' race, isn't it rather fare fetched that the nobles (who would have the most to lose) would let one decide their fate? Grey Warden or no, it does not seem very believable to me. Which is why I have no issue with changing things around.

But again, it is a single player role playing game so you can view the story and characters anyway you like! No wrong choice! Lovely!!

In the game, though, it's very obvious that the Warden has extraordinary charisma.  She is such a strong leader that humans defer to her.  There are very few moments where even an elf is talked down upon, and all it takes is a word for her to get an apology.

Most elves, they wouldn't listen to.  The elven warden, she's an exception, just from the sheer force of her personality.  Even Anora eludes to as much (well, she gives the same line about the warden being competent and powerful, no matter what the race).

Thats kind of my point. The contradiction is that, being a Warden (of any race) seems to give you 'status' and influence among the nobles. Enough to decide their fate. But they wouldn't allow anyone other that a human to rule. It just seems odd to me especially with the 'bloodline' argument which I don't see as being important at all. 

Modifié par Daere, 27 mars 2010 - 12:42 .

[ejoslin]

Daere wrote...

Thats kind of my point. The contradiction is that, being a Warden (of any race) seems to give you 'status' and influence among the nobles. Enough to decide their fate. But they wouldn't allow anyone other that a human to rule. It just seems odd to me especially with the 'bloodline' argument which I don't see as being important at all. 

It's not her being a warden.  It's the sheer force of her personality.  Even Loghain speaks to her with respect, even at the beginning.  But there's also a huge difference between being the general of the armies and such and being queen.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Anora seemed too manipulating and selfish for me to want her on the throne. Alistair I think would be a better Ruler. I think he would actually influence changes for the better while Anora wouldn't. She only cares about being in power while Alistair is someone who I think would do what was best for other people and actually change things for the better. Alistair even gives the city elves a spot on the council while Anora causes more problems with the city elves.

Modifié par ZaroktheImmortal, 27 mars 2010 - 06:13 .

[Daere]

ejoslin wrote...

Daere wrote...

Thats kind of my point. The contradiction is that, being a Warden (of any race) seems to give you 'status' and influence among the nobles. Enough to decide their fate. But they wouldn't allow anyone other that a human to rule. It just seems odd to me especially with the 'bloodline' argument which I don't see as being important at all. 

It's not her being a warden.  It's the sheer force of her personality.  Even Loghain speaks to her with respect, even at the beginning.  But there's also a huge difference between being the general of the armies and such and being queen.

From a realistic psychological viewpoint, racism (and thats very much how its depicted in the games) does not fade just because a member of the subjugated race has a strong forceful personality. In that world, it wouldn't matter how strong the Warden was. (plus, I don't see, and I didn't play her as having this intense forceful personality)
For me, having another race being able to rule (either as king or queen) would have been an interesting change.

[Addai]

Daere wrote...

I have heard the reasoning that he is 'afraid' to be king and all that. I tried making him king at one point and I hated it. I just saw this broken, brow beaten man accepting his fate. With no joy in it. Yet when you make Anora queen-he does this delightful, relaxed laugh!

You should harden him and you'll see a difference.  He's quite optimistic and positive about it.  The fact that he wants to be king when he's hardened tells me that when he is speaking for himself- when he's speaking up for what he wants- he sees that it's he who should have the throne and not Anora.  Not that he aspires to the throne for himself or would try to claim it outside of the circumstances the game has put you all in, but that the country needs a leader and he's it.
As you point out, however, YMMV. 

[Daere]

Addai67 wrote...

Daere wrote...

I have heard the reasoning that he is 'afraid' to be king and all that. I tried making him king at one point and I hated it. I just saw this broken, brow beaten man accepting his fate. With no joy in it. Yet when you make Anora queen-he does this delightful, relaxed laugh!

You should harden him and you'll see a difference.  He's quite optimistic and positive about it.  The fact that he wants to be king when he's hardened tells me that when he is speaking for himself- when he's speaking up for what he wants- he sees that it's he who should have the throne and not Anora.  Not that he aspires to the throne for himself or would try to claim it outside of the circumstances the game has put you all in, but that the country needs a leader and he's it.
As you point out, however, YMMV. 

Oh I have seen the difference! The ending I hated was the one I tried  'hardening' ! I found him to be completely unhappy or unexcited about it. He loses that bright, cheerful light IMO. The fact that you have to convince him to either marry you or stay with you (as a mistress which feels cheap, scummy and scheming to me-the part about having to produce an heir and marry someone else REALLY mad me angry) seems to (me at least) prove that he is NOT following his heart (what he wants) but accepting his fate. I see THAT version as being the one to respond to the 'duty' calling. (Yes the other version mentions duty more but it always seemed more like he was conflicted to me) Whereas if you do not 'harden' him (and boy do I hate that word!) on the noble, he doesn't care about the king thing but (as he says) he's more interested in the marriage part! For me, that was proof that he wants to be with his person and make his own path. Away from his father's. Interesting, again reminding me of Nathaniel!

Modifié par Daere, 27 mars 2010 - 06:29 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Daere wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Daere wrote...

I have heard the reasoning that he is 'afraid' to be king and all that. I tried making him king at one point and I hated it. I just saw this broken, brow beaten man accepting his fate. With no joy in it. Yet when you make Anora queen-he does this delightful, relaxed laugh!

You should harden him and you'll see a difference.  He's quite optimistic and positive about it.  The fact that he wants to be king when he's hardened tells me that when he is speaking for himself- when he's speaking up for what he wants- he sees that it's he who should have the throne and not Anora.  Not that he aspires to the throne for himself or would try to claim it outside of the circumstances the game has put you all in, but that the country needs a leader and he's it.
As you point out, however, YMMV. 

Oh I have seen the difference! The ending I hated was the one I tried  'hardening' ! I found him to be completely unhappy or unexcited about it. He loses that bright, cheerful light IMO. The fact that you have to convince him to either marry you or stay with you (as a mistress which feels cheap, scummy and scheming to me-the part about having to produce an heir and marry someone else REALLY mad me angry) seems to (me at least) prove that he is NOT following his heart (what he wants) but accepting his fate. I see THAT version as being the one to respond to the 'duty' calling. (Yes the other version mentions duty more but it always seemed more like he was conflicted to me) Whereas if you do not 'harden' him (and boy do I hate that word!) on the noble, he doesn't care about the king thing but (as he says) he's more interested in the marriage part! For me, that was proof that he wants to be with his person and make his own path. Away from his father's. Interesting, again reminding me of Nathaniel!

After he had been hardened when I played it when it came to selecting him or Anora he told me it had to be him no question. So I think by time he reaches that point he realises that he could be a good king and he wants to give it a go.

[Drasanil]

Daere wrote...

Personally, I prefer not making Alistair king (as long as I don't have Anora betray me, I like her just fine and she seems to do a fine job) . I don't see my Dalish girl giving a d*^$n about birthrights or whatever. After all, why would she?

Sorry for going off topic here but, the Dalish is probably the one origin that should care the most about birthrights and bloodline, their entire reason for being is fundementally tied down to those things. They're the descendants of the Dales' noble houses, they're fiercely proud of their heritage and the fact that they date back to the oldest and purest bloodlines from Arlathan. Their entire mission statement is reclaiming their lost birthright and making a new home for the elves, where they can teach the flat-ears how to be "proper" elves again. The Dalish are all about tradition and birthright. They might not have kings, which makes sense having a dalish king/queen at this point would be highly impractical, but they certainly understand the concept and it's importance, putting Alistair on the throne from a Dalish point of view would make much more sense than Anora, especially given what the Warden would know about both of them.

[Addai]

@Drasanil: Indeed. I always felt that my Dalish elf was more comfortable moving in circles of human power than my other elven characters, mage or CE. She had not had as many personal experiences of oppression as the others had, but also because her stock is noble and she had no inferiority complex at all. She was one of the most politically subtle of my characters, though wanted nothing to do with Fereldan politics herself. She arranged Alistair's marriage to Anora and kept herself as his mistress, with everything out on the table.

[Drasanil]

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

After he had been hardened when I played it when it came to selecting him or Anora he told me it had to be him no question. So I think by time he reaches that point he realises that he could be a good king and he wants to give it a go.

Exactly hardening Alistair and putting him on the Throne is all about essentially making him grow up and face his responsibilities for the good of every one, as opposed to continuing to live in la-la-land and getting to play hero.