64 réponses à ce sujet

[HoonDing]

It's kinda sad how Dalish Elves can take out their frustrations and hatred towards the shems by shooting down a couple of peasants in their origin... but for the rest, all they do is just trekking around singing songs.



Considering how Elves are depicted in the game, it's very hard to imagine they ever ruled anything. They're basically a bunch of losers, and it's hard to imagine why one would even want them as allies.

[Addai]

Daere wrote...
Oh I have seen the difference! The ending I hated was the one I tried  'hardening' ! I found him to be completely unhappy or unexcited about it. He loses that bright, cheerful light IMO.

What??  This may be a case of seeing what one wants to see, but I always find Alistair to be rather cheerful (though in shock) after being appointed king when hardened.  He talks about the good he can do and that it could be an interesting future for him.  What worries him at that point is the heir.  This, too, he is able to set aside.  In fact he's rather upbeat when you say something like "it won't be for lack of trying."

Whereas if you do not 'harden' him (and boy do I hate that word!) on the noble, he doesn't care about the king thing but (as he says) he's more interested in the marriage part! For me, that was proof that he wants to be with his person and make his own path. Away from his father's. Interesting, again reminding me of Nathaniel!

Yes, but as I said, hardening is Alistair learning to speak for himself rather than having others dictate to him.  Try not making him king when he's hardened and see if he's happy about it.  He'll still accept it either way, but as I said, when his backbone is stiffened, it's what he wants.  At the very least, he does not think Anora should be on the throne.

A mistress ending is definitely more complicated and melancholy.  This is feudal politics, however.  I see it as a small price to pay to have a truly good king on the throne, one which continues the line of Maric.

[Addai]

virumor wrote...

It's kinda sad how Dalish Elves can take out their frustrations and hatred towards the shems by shooting down a couple of peasants in their origin... but for the rest, all they do is just trekking around singing songs.

It's not just taking out frustration, it is pragmatic survival.  They live by hiding.

Considering how Elves are depicted in the game, it's very hard to imagine they ever ruled anything. They're basically a bunch of losers, and it's hard to imagine why one would even want them as allies.

Oghren does have a point that the dwarves would never stand for being a subjugated race.  Although they do their own great job of subjugating half their people, so he's full of crap in his own way.  Even the proudest race has its limits, however.  The elves we see in-game are at the end process of their civilization being destroyed not once but twice, and hundreds of years of subjugation, fragmentation and suppression of their cultural heritage.  They're exhausted as a people.  The fact that the Dalish have survived at all intact is a small miracle.  I hestitate to make real-world comparisons, but the Jews come to mind (the CE origin always reminds me of Fiddler on the Roof).

[Daere]

Hmm... thats very interesting! I always felt my Dalish would be very... uncomfortable around human nobility. (My city elves not so much) Reminds me of when you are talking to Wynne and something is mentioned about people with power. I always say the line about never wanting power.

As to the Dalish and the birthright thing... didn't see that at al! I took it to mean that they are trying to find their way again. Trying to get back to their roots, remember who they are as a people. Not having their lore and ways lost. To me, that is different (and more meaningful) than a 'birthright'.

[mousestalker]

Addai67 wrote...
I hestitate to make real-world comparisons, but the Jews come to mind (the CE origin always reminds me of Fiddler on the Roof).

I keep expecting to see Cyrion walking down the street singing 'Tradition'. You're not alone.

[Addai]

Daere wrote...

Hmm... thats very interesting! I always felt my Dalish would be very... uncomfortable around human nobility. (My city elves not so much) Reminds me of when you are talking to Wynne and something is mentioned about people with power. I always say the line about never wanting power.
As to the Dalish and the birthright thing... didn't see that at al! I took it to mean that they are trying to find their way again. Trying to get back to their roots, remember who they are as a people. Not having their lore and ways lost. To me, that is different (and more meaningful) than a 'birthright'.

I think he is referring to the fact that the Dalish consider themselves to have been the nobility of Arlathan, and that at least for keepers, the bloodlines are kept very rigorously to ensure they never lose track.  Lanaya talks about this when you dialogue with her about the trouble she had gaining acceptance as a city-born elf.  The Dalish Warden is the son/daughter of a keeper, and thus noble-born in elven terms, at least the closest thing there is in Ferelden.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 mars 2010 - 07:19 .

[Reaverwind]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It is kind of funny, though. It's basically:

PC: Where have you been? People suck.
Alistair: You're right! I've got to stand up for myself more.

And that does a beautiful job of demonstrating just how poorly done the dialog was - because the natural response would be "You're right - I shouldn't let it get to me".

[Daere]

Addai67 wrote...

Daere wrote...
Oh I have seen the difference! The ending I hated was the one I tried  'hardening' ! I found him to be completely unhappy or unexcited about it. He loses that bright, cheerful light IMO.

What??  This may be a case of seeing what one wants to see, but I always find Alistair to be rather cheerful (though in shock) after being appointed king when hardened.  He talks about the good he can do and that it could be an interesting future for him.  What worries him at that point is the heir.  This, too, he is able to set aside.  In fact he's rather upbeat when you say something like "it won't be for lack of trying."

Whereas if you do not 'harden' him (and boy do I hate that word!) on the noble, he doesn't care about the king thing but (as he says) he's more interested in the marriage part! For me, that was proof that he wants to be with his person and make his own path. Away from his father's. Interesting, again reminding me of Nathaniel!

Yes, but as I said, hardening is Alistair learning to speak for himself rather than having others dictate to him.  Try not making him king when he's hardened and see if he's happy about it.  He'll still accept it either way, but as I said, when his backbone is stiffened, it's what he wants.  At the very least, he does not think Anora should be on the throne.

A mistress ending is definitely more complicated and melancholy.  This is feudal politics, however.  I see it as a small price to pay to have a truly good king on the throne, one which continues the line of Maric.

HaHa! I was just thinking the same thing about your post -seeing what you want to see!!! Funny how that is isn't it? The mistress thing just felt so.... degrading an slimy to me. Especially if he is married to someone else. My elf would value herself (and him) to much to do that. 
I think part of this is that I just view the idea of bloodlines as being stupid. (I mean after all....it worked out SO well in reality)

Hmm... I didn't see ( I think I might be repeating myself but oh well) 'Hardened Alistair' as speaking up for himself. If he did, why do you then have to talk him into being with you? As for the Alistair having to 'grow up' comment....... my answer is NO. He is 'grown up' and heroic. If he IS a hero (and he is)...he is not playing as one. (I guess risking your life for others isn't 'grown up' enough but fathering a child and never having to support it is?) Why is it that people think in order to do good, you have to 'grow up'? By growing, up does that mean being cynical and changing to suit the status quo? For me, it has to do with knowing yourself (and you limitations) and having the strength to follow your own path. (If that path includes fathering a child...better get used to changing diapers!) 

But, since this IS fantasy (and designed to be opened ended), you can have the story work out the way you want and not be 'wrong'. I have already stated how I view the entire hardening process but if thats how some play... enjoy! If I were to choose to play evil and against all the morals I have...I might consider going that route. But as it is...I am very happy playing the way I am and I hope others are too! I think the choices show whats important to the players as well as what your own values are so really, every choice works.

Modifié par Daere, 28 mars 2010 - 06:52 .

[Drasanil]

virumor wrote...

It's kinda sad how Dalish Elves can take out their frustrations and hatred towards the shems by shooting down a couple of peasants in their origin... but for the rest, all they do is just trekking around singing songs.

 
Eheh, that's not entirely true, it's mostly Tamlen he's very much the young and hotblooded type and even at that he's mostly doing it to prevent the humans from causing them trouble for the clan, supersticious ignorant peasants generally tend not to be the most understanding type of people.

If you do kill them your keeper actually disapproves, and if you don't and ask her why the clan is taking crap from the humans who want them to leave, she gives you some pretty good insights into why they do what they do despite the fact they could easily slaughter the village.

Considering how Elves are depicted in the game, it's very hard to imagine they ever ruled anything. They're basically a bunch of losers, and it's hard to imagine why one would even want them as allies.

Lol! It's quite true, but you have to keep in mind that from the human perspective there are Elves and there are Dalish, the two might as well be entirely seperate species. Elves are viewed as lazy shiftless inferiors who are largely harmless but tend to get up to all sorts of sneaky trouble. Where are as Dalish are more a kin to some scary force of nature that are as likely to rob you blind and murder your family as they are to pass by peacefully and trade with you.

As for wanting them as allies... it's not so much a case of humans wanting them, but the Wardens' realising that a clan is essentially a small army in and of itself, that actually complements human forces rather well, they're some of the best archers and scouts in the world. Humans have great armies, but the Dalish bring whole new levels of field craft and guerila warfare to the table they couldn't match.

Daere wrote...
As to the Dalish and the birthright thing... didn't see that at al! I took it to mean that they are trying to find their way again. Trying to get back to their roots, remember who they are as a people. Not having their lore and ways lost. To me, that is different (and more meaningful) than a 'birthright'.

It's a bit of both, they really look like they're simply trying to regain what they've lost, which they are when it comes to the tools and knowledge of their previous civilisations. But if you look at it closely, as far as they're concerned they've already found their "way" and they "know" they are proper elves, where as the flat-ears are little different from the shem who hold their leashes. They're actually pretty snobby about the whole thing and elven run aways who join them have to prove they have what it takes to be "proper" elves before they're considered part of the clan, like Pol and Lanaya (sp?).

[Addai]

Daere wrote...

Hmm... I didn't see ( I think I might be repeating myself but oh well) 'Hardened Alistair' as speaking up for himself. If he did, why do you then have to talk him into being with you? As for Alistair having to 'grow up'....... my answer is NO. He is 'grown up' and very heroic. If he IS a hero (and he is)...he is not playing as one. (I guess risking your life for others isn't 'grown up' enough but fathering a child and never having to support it is?) Why is it that people think in order to do good, you have to 'grow up'? By growing, up does that mean being cynical and changing to suit the status quo? For me, it has to do with knowing yourself (and you limitations) and having the strength to follow your own path. (If that path includes fathering a child...better get used to changing diapers!) 

I didn't say he has to grow up???  Not sure where you got that from my post.  All the characters in the game grow and change, including your PC.  I don't subscribe to the opinion that you hear around the boards about Alistair needing mothering etc.  He's not immature, just a bit sheltered and his opinion of his leadership abilities has been crippled by his upbringing.

However, hardening is Alistair starting to look out for himself.  That's the very definition of it.  In the post-camp discussion after seeing Goldanna, he tells you he's been thinking about what you said and that he need to start looking out for himself more rather than letting other people make decisions for him.  You can then say that he needn't let you influence him and he says "you're not influencing me- I'm agreeing with you that you're right."  Of course, you still do influence him, but at that point he starts voicing his own desires, in particular regarding the kingship.

As for keeping you as mistress or as wife with little possibility of an heir, what you are convincing him of is letting go of his duty ideal, or at least putting his personal happiness together with it.  It's not cynicism- it is Alistair being willing to take something for himself rather than following some idealized martyrdom path.  Hardened, you don't even need a Persuade check to do this.  All it takes is that he sees the Warden willing to be with him even as king.  Naturally, if you just give up and walk away, he's not going to stop you.

I agree that the mistress ending is unsavory.  So is putting yourself forward as queen knowing that you are probably not going to produce an heir.  For these situations, your own PC has to be a bit "hardened" as well.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 mars 2010 - 10:07 .

[Janni-in-VA]

Look at the mistress option from this point of view. Historically, the nobility have arranged marriages to gain advantages -- joining lands, a large dowry, a step up in society, political influence, or any number of very practical reasons. While a father might not force his daughter to marry someone she absolutely can't stand, neither of them would expect her to be in love with her bridegroom-to-be. Now, the couple might come to love each other after the marriage, but then again they could just as easily slip into friendship after the babies come or even despise each other entirely. Mistresses were the women these men loved. They were the women with whom these men could actually be themselves. And, those relationships often lasted years. (As a modern example, consider Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles.) Furthermore, many of those women were either married themselves or were widows. (More convenient to be married if you get pregnant, at least once we get on into the 19th century.) Alistair is merely echoing this historical point of view when he talks about his responsibility to produce an heir, but gives a nod to our modern sensibilities when he asks if the situation would be fair to you or to his wife. So historically, being a mistress lacked the slime factor we now associate with the role. Now, most marriages are contracted out of love, and to cheat on one's spouse is to betray that love. It's far better, and easier, to divorce and move on with one's life. I've only finished two play-throughs, one where I married Alistair to Anora and one where I left Anora alone on the throne. I'll have to see what some of my other girls are going to feel like once I get to the Landsmeet. (They're all "girls" to me because I'm old enough to be their mother....lol)

[Daere]

Thank you for that point of view but I am very happy with my choice so far! I honestly don't care about whatever reason the mistress option makes sense historically since that's not my story (and its fantasy. Not to mention I don't value those morals/ideas and my characters share mine viewpoint-maybe others do but not me;)).

If other people view this entire thing differently that's fine. As I have said throughout this topic, I do not view (I have tried but I don't see it-nor will I ever)  the 'hardening thing' as Alistair as 'looking out for himself' or being the 'right' or 'best' thing for him. I view it as telling him to change. Others see that differently and I do not expect to 'turn people' to my point of view. I just want to point out there IS another viewpoint. The story is designed to be opened ended so that your own views/choices shape your gaming experience (hence the reason they allow and encourage 'modding')  So there is no 'right' way to play, just the way you choose to. All I ask is that others respect the different choices people make and don't try to 'change' (or imply that they are not 'true fans' or are not playing as it was meant to be played) their view simply because some don't do as you do. After all, part of the genius of the designers was to make the player decide what happens via their choices.

Hope it works out for others but I will stick with my story thank you.

Modifié par Daere, 29 mars 2010 - 05:35 .

[Sarah1281]

I suppose the 'mistress is historically accurate' thing is true, but I've only ever romanced him with a HN (who became Queen or she would have broken it off because the Teyrna of Highever was better than that), DN (broke it off the minute she found out he might become heir before things got serious as a Princess is not willing to become someone's mistress because she's not 'good enough' to be his wife), and DC. My DC saw how happy Rica was as a royal concubine, but also that things weren't exactly the greatest. She 'wasn't allowed' to remove her own son from the nursery? Vartag was embarrassed that she was talking to him in public (and what was with his 'the Assembly is no place for a woman' attitude about? Half the deshyrs were women!). Harrowmont was using Rica's existance to try and undermine Bhelen. It's certainly a step up from Dust Town, but the DC is the freaking Hero of Ferelden. She's not willing to be a dirty little secret or even an open secret. She's finally proven that she's worth something and she's proud of that and isn't willing to sacrifice all of that so quickly for a relatively new relationship with a soon-to-be married man.

Neither of my elves wanted anything to do with a human and my mage wanted nothing to do with a templar (but teasing Cullen was fun).

Modifié par Sarah1281, 28 mars 2010 - 08:27 .

[Emerald Melios]

virumor wrote...

It's kinda sad how Dalish Elves can take out their frustrations and hatred towards the shems by shooting down a couple of peasants in their origin... but for the rest, all they do is just trekking around singing songs.

Considering how Elves are depicted in the game, it's very hard to imagine they ever ruled anything. They're basically a bunch of losers, and it's hard to imagine why one would even want them as allies.

Have you seen how hot some of them are?

[Sarah1281]

Considering how Elves are depicted in the game, it's very hard to imagine they ever ruled anything. They're basically a bunch of losers, and it's hard to imagine why one would even want them as allies.

Probably their potential for Death From Above. And they only ruled their land until they met other species.