60 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

This last playthrough of mine was the 1st time I have made sure Sidonis lives and I felt bad for doing so.  His 'oh i feel so bad and have nightmares' hardly made up for betraying is squadmates and getting 10 of them killed.  I felt like I was totally bsing Garrus trying to make him see that killing Sidonis was not the thing to do.

[Highdragonslayer]

Why should he get the chance to atone?  His victims don't have any chances anymore.

    Look at it as if your Sidonis. Your a civilian who lived in Omega for what im assuming for all his life, and learned early to not mess with the gangs. So these gangs approach you and threaten to kill you if you don't do what they say. What do you think he'd do? What would you do in that situation?

[Spartas Husky]

I am not a religious person but I love a medieval quote from a churchman.



"there is no greater punishment than to remember happier times while drowning in sorrow"



Personally to each a different punishment. Truly good people, when they make a mistake, feel more pain through guilt and sorrow than any punishment can instill on them.



If is a greedy man, deprive him of wealth in prison.

Besides, true vengeance is the one that inflicts the most pain on the culprit, not the ones that grants you the quickest satisfaction.



Sidonis is going to burn in his own nightmares lol that is pretty good for me.

[jakenou]

Shandepared wrote...

Tragick Flaw wrote...

This. I'm actually surprised with how many people justify the killing because Sidonis 'deserves' it. One more death isn't going to make everything better. At least Sidonis can try to atone now.

I don't do it because I think Sidonis deserves it, I do it because it is Garrus' choice to make. If he doesn't want to shoot Sidonis then he doesn't have to. If he regrets it later then he can learn from it.

That seems like a pretty Renegade way to go. Not that it's evil (because I don't think Renegade really has to be evil at all), but just that it's not very compassionate towards Garrus. I imagined what I would do if one of my best friends that I had been through hell and back with, battled at my side in times of war with and even killed many in the process... if that friend had a personal vendetta that caused him to suffer so much that he wanted to go out and kill someone... sure as hell I would intervene in that decision somehow. Same thing if he wanted to kill himself or something. Of course it's his decision to make, but that decision matters to me and I care about it.

[Big Yam]

First time through, I let Sidonis die. His life was not worth the risk of having an unloyal Garrus, which is what I thought would happen if Shep didn't move out of the way.



Now I always kill him, since letting him live feels like I'm choosing a stranger over a friend, and shoving the 'political correct' way of doing things down his throat while I'm at it.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Shandepared wrote...

jkthunder wrote...

That seems like a pretty Renegade way to go. Not that it's evil (because I don't think Renegade really has to be evil at all), but just that it's not very compassionate towards Garrus.

I'm not his damned mother. He's a grown man and a trained killer. I trust him to make his own decisions. I've guided him enough, I don't need to guide him anymore. Also the fact is my Shepard has a mission to complete and he needs Garrus focused. He doesn't want to risk pissing Garrus off, he just wants to get this out of the way so that he can get back to the mission. Garrus is his best friend, but the mission comes first.

Only with meta-gaming can you know that by betraying Garrus that he'll still thank you for it and wind up satisified.

I did it that way on my first playthrough without any hints.  But we've had this argument...

[Tragick Flaw]

Ahglock wrote...

Tragick Flaw wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

Let him live, it's better for Garrus.

This. I'm actually surprised with how many people justify the killing because Sidonis 'deserves' it. One more death isn't going to make everything better. At least Sidonis can try to atone now.

Why should he get the chance to atone?  His victims don't have any chances anymore.

That can be put right back at you. Why shouldn't he get the chance? If we continually justify no second chances, that's a large trail of bodies. And there is really no reason not to. Talk to him and you learn he's already suffering. From my impression, he's close to killing himself.

Sidonis isn't evil, he's just a guy who made a terrible mistake. In a lot a ways, he's like the Ancient Mariner (if you understand the reference). Allowing him to live is giving him a chance at redempation and to making the deaths he caused mean something.

[jakenou]

Shandepared wrote...


I'm not his damned mother. He's a grown man and a trained killer. I trust him to make his own decisions. I've guided him enough, I don't need to guide him anymore. Also the fact is my Shepard has a mission to complete and he needs Garrus focused. He doesn't want to risk pissing Garrus off, he just wants to get this out of the way so that he can get back to the mission. Garrus is his best friend, but the mission comes first.

Only with meta-gaming can you know that by betraying Garrus that he'll still thank you for it and wind up satisified.

Obviously you're not his mother or his guide. You're his peer and his friend. Different people are going to approach this differently, and by playing through it multiple times you'll find out that different ways can work to gain his loyalty, but still have different dramatic results. The decision as to what's better for Garrus and what will keep him focused is a matter of perspective. As I said before, it's a grey area. For me, the logic is that if you're taking the time and going out of the way to do all these loyalty missions, you'll take the time to do them with the best possible outcome for the well being of your crew. By letting Garrus hear the truth about Sidonis, GARRUS decides to lower his gun.

Modifié par jkthunder, 27 mars 2010 - 04:28 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Sidonis was weak, he deserved to be killed. Die like a man and stuff like that.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Shandepared wrote...

Ray Joel Oh wrote...


I did it that way on my first playthrough without any hints.  But we've had this argument...

You took a risk. You're a terrible Spectre. Get out of my sight!

I'm a loose cannon of diplomacy!  :flips over desk: :flips it back and arranges contents in their proper order: :walks away:

[Tragick Flaw]

Shandepared wrote...

jkthunder wrote...

That seems like a pretty Renegade way to go. Not that it's evil (because I don't think Renegade really has to be evil at all), but just that it's not very compassionate towards Garrus.

I'm not his damned mother. He's a grown man and a trained killer. I trust him to make his own decisions. I've guided him enough, I don't need to guide him anymore. Also the fact is my Shepard has a mission to complete and he needs Garrus focused. He doesn't want to risk pissing Garrus off, he just wants to get this out of the way so that he can get back to the mission. Garrus is his best friend, but the mission comes first.

Only with meta-gaming can you know that by betraying Garrus that he'll still thank you for it and wind up satisified.

But you're his friend, companion, and leader. Here he is, acting differently from how he typically reacts. You wouldn't try to slow him down and make him actually think about what is happening? As a friend and companion, you should be concerned for him, what he is become. As his commander you need to make sure he is able to work properly.

[DPSSOC]

Tragick Flaw wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

Let him live, it's better for Garrus.

This. I'm actually surprised with how many people justify the killing because Sidonis 'deserves' it. One more death isn't going to make everything better. At least Sidonis can try to atone now.

I usually let Garrus have his revenge, not because I believe Sidonis deserves it but because it's not my choice to make.  I was not there I didn't know Sidonis, I had nothing to do with Garrus' activities on Omega, and as such I'm not in any position to judge either Sidonis' actions or Garrus' reaction to it.  Garrus has made his decision and asked me, as a friend, to help him and I respect him too much to take that choice away from him.

Addendum:

So if you respect Garrus, respect that he's made his choice and either agree to help him and help him or flat out tell him you won't., but don't treat him like a child and make his decisions for him.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 27 mars 2010 - 04:38 .

[Ray Joel Oh]

Nerivant wrote...

People will tell you different things based on whether their decisions are more heavily affected by logic or emotion.

I think the "logical" and "emotional" choices are reversed in your comparison.
Nevermind, noticed your edit.

Modifié par Ray Joel Oh, 27 mars 2010 - 04:40 .

[Tragick Flaw]

Shandepared wrote...

Tragick Flaw wrote...


 Here he is, acting differently from how he typically reacts.

...except that is not what he's doing. He's acting exactly as he has been since I ran into him on Omega. Consider the way he and my Shepard mentored one another in ME1 this is exactly what one would expect.

Interesting fact: Garrus can claim responsbility for humanity seizing control of the galaxy. It was upon his advice that my Shepard let the Council die.

Garrus, "Shepard, are you really going to sacrifice human lives to save the Council??"

They feed off one another...

Garrus being able to kill without remorse or hesitation makes him a valuable asset in my opinion. We aren't on a mission to spread love and happinness.

True, but in ME1 he would always take the time to listen to your opinion. Here, he blows you off, stating he's made his decision. Well he has matured since ME1, to me it didn't seem in character for him. And this is where arguements get hard. I mentored Garrus the other way.

As for the Garrus quote, I do know that the game gives out the dialogue to each of your companions. I can't remember if Garrus said that for me, but it seems more of a Wrex thing to say. (I tend to go Garrus-Wrex a lot)

[Ray Joel Oh]

Tragick Flaw wrote...

True, but in ME1 he would always take the time to listen to your opinion. Here, he blows you off, stating he's made his decision. Well he has matured since ME1, to me it didn't seem in character for him. And this is where arguements get hard. I mentored Garrus the other way.

As for the Garrus quote, I do know that the game gives out the dialogue to each of your companions. I can't remember if Garrus said that for me, but it seems more of a Wrex thing to say. (I tend to go Garrus-Wrex a lot)

I think he said the same for me when I paragoned him.  And then I saved the council.

[BrutalWolfs]

Im to much of a wuss to let Garrus kill him.



Paragon XD

[Ray Joel Oh]

BrutalWolfs wrote...

Im to much of a wuss to let Garrus kill him.

Paragon XD

I don't think standing in the way of a bullet and risking a friendship for principles is wussy.

[Ahglock]

Tragick Flaw wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Tragick Flaw wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

Let him live, it's better for Garrus.

This. I'm actually surprised with how many people justify the killing because Sidonis 'deserves' it. One more death isn't going to make everything better. At least Sidonis can try to atone now.

Why should he get the chance to atone?  His victims don't have any chances anymore.

That can be put right back at you. Why shouldn't he get the chance? If we continually justify no second chances, that's a large trail of bodies. And there is really no reason not to. Talk to him and you learn he's already suffering. From my impression, he's close to killing himself.

Sidonis isn't evil, he's just a guy who made a terrible mistake. In a lot a ways, he's like the Ancient Mariner (if you understand the reference). Allowing him to live is giving him a chance at redempation and to making the deaths he caused mean something.

I can justify second chances a lot, but he effectively murdered 10 people.  There does come a point where i can say, yeah you lost your chance to atone.  This may just be a terribel mistake, but its one he knowingly and intentioally made. Which differs from the Mariner, he killed what a pelican or something.  Which pissed off the spirits of the antartic sea?   The Ancient Mariner callously shot a bird for no reason not really knowing what he was doing though.  Sidonis killed 10 people knowing perfectly well it was wrong and what the effects would be, not just for those killed but for the people of Omega. 

I think the fail of me in general is you have 2 options kill him or let him walk away.  Even if i decide to let him live, I sure as heck am not letting him walk away.  Trump up some charges that will stick or something, drop his ass off on an unihabited planet, do something, anything.  Your options are kill him or have a nice day. 

This is mainly me being a devils advocate I am usually on the other side of the fence on this issue and similar ones.