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[Kaiser Shepard]

Say what you want about Cerberus and their operations, but pretty much everything related to the Lazarus Project went exactly as planned. EDI is no exception, which is rather impressive.

[GuardianAngel470]

Minaach wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Oh I didn't read the books, and a single A.I. is different to race of them anyway.

This.
Humanity took steps to limit their A.I. hence E.D.I, they understand the danger but if they are controlled, they cannot operate outside of their protocols.

I understand that, but the argument the person I quoted made was that it was illegal and because of that the council was justified.  The law is pretty black and white, if you broke it you get X punishment, in this case there was no precedent to reference and it seems like the council overreacted.  But you should also note that the quarians essentially got their teeth knocked out after being robbed of the majority of their internal organs.  Insult to injury.

[Spartas Husky]

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Say what you want about Cerberus and their operations, but pretty much everything related to the Lazarus Project went exactly as planned. EDI is no exception, which is rather impressive.

Unless you played a paragon Shepard.

Not really. SHepherd was brought to defeat the collectors, main objective complete.

A secondary objective was to hopefully make him change his views and hire him as an asset. But we didn;t ;P well if your a paragon.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Say what you want about Cerberus and their operations, but pretty much everything related to the Lazarus Project went exactly as planned. EDI is no exception, which is rather impressive.

Unless you played a paragon Shepard.

Yeah, if you played paragon then nothing went as planned.  Your best two operatives betray you in favor of the subject of the lazarus project, your most advanced warship gets stolen, and the AI also betrays you.  Sh*t went to hell if you played paragon.

[BS Veyron]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Um, except the humans made an AI and all that happened to them was....was.... oh wait, nothing happened to them.  Exiling humanity at that time would have been politically convenient but they didn't.  The council of the morning war time were just kicking a race while they were down. 

If your talking about E.D.I. she isn't really known outside of cerberus, if your talking about the numerous times a V.I. goes crazy and you gotta fix it, well I guess the council hate people in suits.

No, no in the book Revelation they talk about an AI that the Alliance made that the council found out about, but the human ambassador hoodwinked the council into giving them a free pass. 

If I remember right in the book the Alliance never created an AI but were only conducting AI research which is also against council law.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

scxenophobe wrote...

As I said, the Council likes making examples, it would have been convienient to let the Turians take out humanity as well, but they didn't one example is all they needed in this case it would be the Krogan doing it again would be meh.

I think that if the Council had known at the time that the humans were not capable of fending the turians off that they'd have let them overtake us. However all the Council knew was this: the turians stopped a new race from activating a dormant relay and then conquered a planet, taking out most of their navy. Then out of the blue more of the aliens appeared and kicked the turians' ass. The turians then responded to this unknown threat with the preparation to go to total war on a massive scale.

The Council intervened to stop that massive war, not for any other reason.

I'm sure that as time went on and humanity quickly established itself as a regional (and soon to be galactic power) that the Council quietly regretted stopping the turians. None the less, humans were useful in stabilizing the Skyllian Verge and Attican Traverse.

I don't think the Council cares so much about making examples as they care about maintaining their "peace", at any cost.

Actually, I don't think that would have happened, the council letting the turians wipe humanity out.  I think this is a matter of lazy writing.  Based on what we know about First contact the council wouldn't have let the geth destroy the quarians, but they did.  Conversely, from what we know about the morning war the council would have let the turians wipe out humanity or vise versa, but they didn't.  That is a huge contradiction that can best be explained as sloppy writing.  The council cares too much about their own interests to allow either event to occur, but they did.

[GuardianAngel470]

BS Veyron wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Um, except the humans made an AI and all that happened to them was....was.... oh wait, nothing happened to them.  Exiling humanity at that time would have been politically convenient but they didn't.  The council of the morning war time were just kicking a race while they were down. 

If your talking about E.D.I. she isn't really known outside of cerberus, if your talking about the numerous times a V.I. goes crazy and you gotta fix it, well I guess the council hate people in suits.

No, no in the book Revelation they talk about an AI that the Alliance made that the council found out about, but the human ambassador hoodwinked the council into giving them a free pass. 

If I remember right in the book the Alliance never created an AI but were only conducting AI research which is also against council law.

No, they made an AI, it's chilling at Arcturus or one of the Alliance space stations.  I'll have to go back and check for the name, but they definitely did complete it.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Not really. SHepherd was brought to defeat the collectors, main objective complete.

...but he blew up the Collector base, robbing humanity of a priceless asset to use against the Reapers.

Oh yeah, I forgot that part.  He completed the mission but not the way TIM wanted it completed.  Thus, mission failure.

[scxenophobe]

Shandepared wrote...

scxenophobe wrote...

As I said, the Council likes making examples, it would have been convienient to let the Turians take out humanity as well, but they didn't one example is all they needed in this case it would be the Krogan doing it again would be meh.

I think that if the Council had known at the time that the humans were not capable of fending the turians off that they'd have let them overtake us. However all the Council knew was this: the turians stopped a new race from activating a dormant relay and then conquered a planet, taking out most of their navy. Then out of the blue more of the aliens appeared and kicked the turians' ass. The turians then responded to this unknown threat with the preparation to go to total war on a massive scale.

The Council intervened to stop that massive war, not for any other reason.

I'm sure that as time went on and humanity quickly established itself as a regional (and soon to be galactic power) that the Council quietly regretted stopping the turians. None the less, humans were useful in stabilizing the Skyllian Verge and Attican Traverse.

I don't think the Council cares so much about making examples as they care about maintaining their "peace", at any cost.

Eh, I'm not so sure, taking out the Navy? Of course, but Kroganifying another race that had just stepped up to the galactic stage would have been a bad move. Now if we would have had the forces to actually wage a war and would have, then we'd simply be another example seems to me the council is just opportunistic.

Modifié par scxenophobe, 27 mars 2010 - 04:19 .

[GuardianAngel470]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Not really. SHepherd was brought to defeat the collectors, main objective complete.

...but he blew up the Collector base, robbing humanity of a priceless asset to use against the Reapers.

Oh yeah, I forgot that part.  He completed the mission but not the way TIM wanted it completed.  Thus, mission failure.

Oh, and just so you know, the justification for blowing the base is actually pretty sound.  For paragons who don't want tim dominating the galaxy, it was the only option.  What the heck kinda savior would I be if after defeating the reapers I turn around and enslave the galaxy?  Now if I had the option to give the base to the geth I would in a heartbeat, it's just not worth it to trade reaper defeat for enslavement. 

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Actually, I don't think that would have happened, the council letting the turians wipe humanity out.  I think this is a matter of lazy writing.  Based on what we know about First contact the council wouldn't have let the geth destroy the quarians, but they did.  Conversely, from what we know about the morning war the council would have let the turians wipe out humanity or vise versa, but they didn't.  That is a huge contradiction that can best be explained as sloppy writing.  The council cares too much about their own interests to allow either event to occur, but they did.

You might be right but the fact is that this is the Council history we are presented with so I like to try and make an attempt to explain it.

Yeah, I can understand that.  I think I had a similar discussion with somebody questioning the validity of analyzing the science of ME.  In the interest of maintaining a discussion about nothing meaningful, it is quite possible the council regrets stopping the turians, but if they were that cold hearted then they would probably have destroyed that Raloi telescope and wiped out the planet in order to prevent a possible war with them.  Just saying.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 Now if I had the option to give the base to the geth I would in a heartbeat, it's just not worth it to trade reaper defeat for enslavement. 

You just made my head explode with rage, shock, and horror.

It's what I'm here for.  Honestly, if you had two options like that what would you do?  If you knew that you could either die a quick and relatively painless death via bombardment from orbit or live out the rest of your life in slavery, what would you do?  This is a "Give me liberty or give me death" kinda choice.

[scxenophobe]

Shandepared wrote...

scxenophobe wrote...

Eh, I'm not so sure, taking out the Navy? Of course, but Kroganifying another race that had just stepped up to the galactic stage would have been a bad move. Now if we would have had the forces to actually wage a war and would have, then we'd simply be another example seems to me the council is just opurtunisc.

Allowing an ally of the Council to be exterminated by rogue A.I., then exiling them from the Citadel, and then allowing those rogue A.I. to continue to exist without establishing any kind of relations with them was a bad move.

Indeed. Not much else to add other than that.

[Spartas Husky]

BS Veyron wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Um, except the humans made an AI and all that happened to them was....was.... oh wait, nothing happened to them.  Exiling humanity at that time would have been politically convenient but they didn't.  The council of the morning war time were just kicking a race while they were down. 

If your talking about E.D.I. she isn't really known outside of cerberus, if your talking about the numerous times a V.I. goes crazy and you gotta fix it, well I guess the council hate people in suits.

No, no in the book Revelation they talk about an AI that the Alliance made that the council found out about, but the human ambassador hoodwinked the council into giving them a free pass. 

If I remember right in the book the Alliance never created an AI but were only conducting AI research which is also against council law.

There are countless prothean ruins ready to be explored, the reaper dropped on the gas giant, is in pieces, but the entire reaper is up for grabs, and only cerberus and the geth known it is there.

Illos is still in baby stage for research, but citadel races cant venture for too long or in too big numbers to adequately study its data bases.

And remember, if you pay close eye to the end. EDI most likely did more than just scanned the collector base.
How else could she have files and data regarding the other reapers out in dark space.

Many factors are still in the air.

Collector base was not an "irreplaceable asset" plenty of data to be found around. and with Cerberus on board, as well as EDI processing power, adding that the geth new construct which seems to be their own version of a reaper core, and the Quarians natural affinity for mechanics and AI's is more than enough to put enough data together to find a way.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Say what you want about Cerberus and their operations, but pretty much everything related to the Lazarus Project went exactly as planned. EDI is no exception, which is rather impressive.

Unless you played a paragon Shepard.

Keywords: pretty much.

Shandepared wrote...

scxenophobe wrote...

Eh, I'm not so sure, taking out the Navy? Of course, but Kroganifying another race that had just stepped up to the galactic stage would have been a bad move. Now if we would have had the forces to actually wage a war and would have, then we'd simply be another example seems to me the council is just opurtunisc.

Allowing an ally of the Council to be exterminated by rogue A.I., then exiling them from the Citadel, and then allowing those rogue A.I. to continue to exist without establishing any kind of relations with them was a bad move.

I don't care what your opinion on the quarian/geth problem is, but that was without a doubt the best way to deal with that problem. From both a political and a strategic viewpoint.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

It's what I'm here for.  Honestly, if you had two options like that what would you do?  If you knew that you could either die a quick and relatively painless death via bombardment from orbit or live out the rest of your life in slavery, what would you do?  This is a "Give me liberty or give me death" kinda choice.

For me there is no hard choice here. I support Cerberus goals and, to a slightly lesser degree, their methods completely. Human dominance is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention that a base that is capable of building a Reaper may prove invaluable in the fight to come. If we know how they are put together we know how to take them apart, violently. All the tech in a Reaper may be contained within that base. It is just too good of an opportunity to pass up.

Yeah, see, that's where we differ.  I honestly would have prefered a choice of who to give the base to, just like that one N7 mission.  They didn't give me one and I don't support human dominance and that is why I destroy the base.  In all probability Bioware will kick us paragons and paragades in the teeth with this one, but we'll see.

[Goodwood]

Given what Legion tells Shepard in ME2 if you talk to him enough, I can imagine the geth, after completing their Dyson sphere, retreating to it and handing the quarian homeworld and colonies back to their creators. If not, then why would they have bothered to clean up those worlds in the aftermath of the Morning War?



As for the Council's reaction to the geth uprising, I can understand their reluctance to go to war, and agree with what military steps they took (border patrols, etc.). However, they should have at least helped the quarians to find a new colony world...and made the quarians pay for any necessary terraforming and/or settlement expenses that the quarians themselves couldn't do right away.