120 réponses à ce sujet

[TheLostGenius]

 They were denied council status for their involvement in creating the Geth. Their species was viewed as irresponsible and ultimately primitive to the civil council races. Each race has to prove themselves worthy of being a council race, the Quarians squandered that by proving that they created one of the galaxies biggest problems.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I don't care what your opinion on the quarian/geth problem is, but that was without a doubt the best way to deal with that problem. From both a political and a strategic viewpoint.

Hardly. If you are concerned with machine rights then you offer the geth an olive branch and attempt to communicate with them. If they ignore you then it is clear they aren't interested in being your friend and you invade. Artificial intelligences are dangerous, extremely dangerous. Here you have millions of them and they've already proved that they are capable of killing billions of people and conquering many planets. To simply leave them be is foolish and this was proven quite severely when only 5% of the total geth were successful in waging war across the Terminus and Skyillian Verge, and destroyed the Citadel fleets.

What the Council did was callous, hypocritical, irresponsible, and short-sighted.

Not risking an unnecessary war against a 'species' they have no relations with could hardly be called short-sighted or irresponsible.

EDIT: I'm going to bed, too many typo's...

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 27 mars 2010 - 04:47 .

[Goodwood]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

It's what I'm here for.  Honestly, if you had two options like that what would you do?  If you knew that you could either die a quick and relatively painless death via bombardment from orbit or live out the rest of your life in slavery, what would you do?  This is a "Give me liberty or give me death" kinda choice.

For me there is no hard choice here. I support Cerberus goals and, to a slightly lesser degree, their methods completely. Human dominance is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention that a base that is capable of building a Reaper may prove invaluable in the fight to come. If we know how they are put together we know how to take them apart, violently. All the tech in a Reaper may be contained within that base. It is just too good of an opportunity to pass up.

Yeah, see, that's where we differ.  I honestly would have prefered a choice of who to give the base to, just like that one N7 mission.  They didn't give me one and I don't support human dominance and that is why I destroy the base.  In all probability Bioware will kick us paragons and paragades in the teeth with this one, but we'll see.

Agreed that the base had to be destroyed and that human dominance isn't a very good idea (no one species should dominate, IMHO). However, I'm fairly certain that the choice as to whether or not to destroy the base will have reprecussions no matter what option you took. Paragons that destroyed the base might miss out on some tech to make the fight against the Reapers that much easier (meaning the difference between the Reapers conquering two or three more planets than they otherwise would have before they're stopped). Renegades who kept the base, on the other hand, might find out that the Collectors left a little surprise behind in the form of yet more indoctrination tech, meaning that you have to eventually go in and destroy it anyway (with the fight being that much more difficult).

[Goodwood]

Shandepared wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

As for the Council's reaction to the geth uprising, I can understand their reluctance to go to war, and agree with what military steps they took (border patrols, etc.). However, they should have at least helped the quarians to find a new colony world...and made the quarians pay for any necessary terraforming and/or settlement expenses that the quarians themselves couldn't do right away.

Oh my god, I think we actually pretty much agree on something here. I'm not sure how I feel about this. This is very uncomfortable.

As they say, politics/debate makes for strange bedfellows, Shandpatine...

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I don't care what your opinion on the quarian/geth problem is, but that was without a doubt the best way to deal with that problem. From both a political and a strategic viewpoint.

Hardly. If you are concerned with machine rights then you offer the geth an olive branch and attempt to communicate with them. If they ignore you then it is clear they aren't interested in being your friend and you invade. Artificial intelligences are dangerous, extremely dangerous. Here you have millions of them and they've already proved that they are capable of killing billions of people and conquering many planets. To simply leave them be is foolish and this was proven quite severely when only 5% of the total geth were successful in waging war across the Terminus and Skyillian Verge, and destroyed the Citadel fleets.

What the Council did was callous, hypocritical, irresponsible, and short-sighted.

Yeah, no, it wasn't.  I'm agreeing with shandepared on this one, letting an ally die in essense then kicking them while they're down is not the politically correct thing to do.  The politically correct thing to do would be to be to try and establish a peace from the get go.  If the geth ignore you them you help the quarians destroy the geth.  They are a threat and history has told us that you do not ignore threats.

If you are idiotic enough to let an ally die and fail to make peace with the enemy species you don't invade (this is where we differ) but you keep a close eye on the enemy.  Invading entails commiting lives and resources to a war you may or may not need.  If you see a military buildup then you invade or thwart the enemy in a more economical way (ie commando/spectre stuff).  You don't commit troops until you know it is necessary.  That is what people hated about the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

[Xaijin]

They told the heretics to stop shooting Quarians. Fat lot of good that did. 5% of the geth managed to literally to kick the crap out of the their creators after the rest achieved liberation.

[TheLostGenius]

As both the admirality board AND Tali's father prove, the Quarians are an idiot-savant race. They are ingenious with mechanical objects, however they are incredibly demented and reckless. Similar to the Krogan's physical aptitude, yet lack of moral-intelligent decision making abilities.

Modifié par TheLostGenius, 27 mars 2010 - 04:48 .

[TheLostGenius]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

monkeycamoran wrote...

We were never told the quarians we're even in the Council.

What he means is that the quarians had an embassy on the citadel and the council kicked them off.

Embassy races do not mean they have a seat on the Council, only a political connection to the Council. The Volus and Elcor are an example of an Embassy race that does not have a seat on the council.

The Quarians are completely estranged from the Council, much like the Krogan, each race has an extremely demented and dangerous side to them, that bar them from the civil honor of being a council race.

[Goodwood]

TheLostGenius wrote...

As both the admirality board AND Tali's father prove, the Quarians are an idiot-savant race. They are ingenious with mechanical objects, however they are incredibly demented and reckless. Similar to the Krogan's physical aptitude, yet lack of moral-intelligent decision making abilities.

While I'm not sure if "idiot savant" is the most appropriate term here, the rest of your statement makes fairly good sense. That doesn't mean they should be left to slow extinction like the krogan (and we now know that the krogan were given a new version of the genophage that will ensure they're able to survive as a species in the long term).

I, for one, am hoping that Shepard is given the opportunity to settle the quarian/geth issue once and for all, preferrably through diplomacy.

[GuardianAngel470]

Xaijin wrote...

They told the heretics to stop shooting Quarians. Fat lot of good that did. 5% of the geth managed to literally to kick the crap out of the their creators after the rest achieved liberation.

What are you talking about? there were no heretics during the morning war, all geth were in agreement.

[Kaiser Shepard]

In any case, the Council shunned the quarians for breaking a sacred law. Aside from that, they could actually have kept the geth on friendly term were they not such idiots, and showed the rest of the galaxy that AI does not necessarily have to be a bad thing.

They played a dangerous game, they knew the possible consequenses and they lost.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 27 mars 2010 - 04:56 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

If you are idiotic enough to let an ally die and fail to make peace with the enemy species you don't invade (this is where we differ) but you keep a close eye on the enemy.

I agree with you, actually. However here is the problem; the Council was not able to keep a close eye on the geth. The Perseus Veil is an isolated region. So instead the Council waited for a little while and when the geth didn't attack they just left and forgot about the problem. They had no idea what the geth might be doing back there. It turns out they were building a massive fleet, a small portion of which was enough to overpower the Citadel fleets. Nevermind that they made contact with Sovereign.

So let me make this a little more clear:

The Council should have attempted to make peace with the geth. If they are unable to do so then they should at least develop the means to closely monitor and observe the geth. However if they can't do that, if the only other option is to leave the geth in seclusion where they could be doing anything, then I say you confront the problem directly with invasion. The longer you wait the more dug in the geth will be.

Yeah, I agree with that.  It was mentioned that there were spy drones beyond the veil, but a lot of good that did.  Not very effective spying.  I thought the salarians were supposed to be good at that.

[GuardianAngel470]

TheLostGenius wrote...

 They were denied council status for their involvement in creating the Geth. Their species was viewed as irresponsible and ultimately primitive to the civil council races. Each race has to prove themselves worthy of being a council race, the Quarians squandered that by proving that they created one of the galaxies biggest problems.

What about the raloi? What did they do to earn their spot among the galactic community?  All they did was make a space telescope that spotted an asari warship.  Hardly what I'd call earning your place.  And Hindsight is 20/20.  Until this stuff with saren the geth weren't considered a threat.  They did nothing threatening besides maintain their borders.

[scxenophobe]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

 They were denied council status for their involvement in creating the Geth. Their species was viewed as irresponsible and ultimately primitive to the civil council races. Each race has to prove themselves worthy of being a council race, the Quarians squandered that by proving that they created one of the galaxies biggest problems.

What about the raloi? What did they do to earn their spot among the galactic community?  All they did was make a space telescope that spotted an asari warship.  Hardly what I'd call earning your place.  And Hindsight is 20/20.  Until this stuff with saren the geth weren't considered a threat.  They did nothing threatening besides maintain their borders.

Obviously for being incredibly advanced.

[GuardianAngel470]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

In any case, the Council shunned the quarians for breaking a sacred law. Aside from that, they could actually have kept the geth on friendly term were they not such idiots, and showed the rest of the galaxy that AI does not necessarily have to be a bad thing.

They played a dangerous game, they knew the possible consequenses and they lost.

A law that may or not have been established pre-morning war.  A law that in my understanding was just  based on hypotheticals, hardly what I'd call sacred.  I understand that there was a stigma about AIs but it is not said whether there is a law in place before the geth.

[GuardianAngel470]

scxenophobe wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

 They were denied council status for their involvement in creating the Geth. Their species was viewed as irresponsible and ultimately primitive to the civil council races. Each race has to prove themselves worthy of being a council race, the Quarians squandered that by proving that they created one of the galaxies biggest problems.

What about the raloi? What did they do to earn their spot among the galactic community?  All they did was make a space telescope that spotted an asari warship.  Hardly what I'd call earning your place.  And Hindsight is 20/20.  Until this stuff with saren the geth weren't considered a threat.  They did nothing threatening besides maintain their borders.

Obviously for being incredibly advanced.

Seriously.  Man those guys sure are a threat, lets make friends before they attack and wipe us out.

[scxenophobe]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

scxenophobe wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

 They were denied council status for their involvement in creating the Geth. Their species was viewed as irresponsible and ultimately primitive to the civil council races. Each race has to prove themselves worthy of being a council race, the Quarians squandered that by proving that they created one of the galaxies biggest problems.

What about the raloi? What did they do to earn their spot among the galactic community?  All they did was make a space telescope that spotted an asari warship.  Hardly what I'd call earning your place.  And Hindsight is 20/20.  Until this stuff with saren the geth weren't considered a threat.  They did nothing threatening besides maintain their borders.

Obviously for being incredibly advanced.

Seriously.  Man those guys sure are a threat, lets make friends before they attack and wipe us out.

I'm sure they deserve it, damned space birds.

[Goodwood]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

 They were denied council status for their involvement in creating the Geth. Their species was viewed as irresponsible and ultimately primitive to the civil council races. Each race has to prove themselves worthy of being a council race, the Quarians squandered that by proving that they created one of the galaxies biggest problems.

What about the raloi? What did they do to earn their spot among the galactic community?  All they did was make a space telescope that spotted an asari warship.  Hardly what I'd call earning your place.  And Hindsight is 20/20.  Until this stuff with saren the geth weren't considered a threat.  They did nothing threatening besides maintain their borders.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what are the raloi? Never seen them mentioned before...

[Xaijin]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

They told the heretics to stop shooting Quarians. Fat lot of good that did. 5% of the geth managed to literally to kick the crap out of the their creators after the rest achieved liberation.

What are you talking about? there were no heretics during the morning war, all geth were in agreement.

The geth who INVADE and kill anything not bolted down are heretics, who apparently comprise 5% of the total pop cap. The orthodox geth asked politely for the heretics to stop, they don't. Notice I say after liberation, ie after the MW.

5% of the geth managed to nuke anything that came near them until super spectre showed up.