71 réponses à ce sujet

[davidshooter]

I don't think it's like BDTS at all. In that mission you had the option to save people a terrorist had set up to die or you could go after the terrorist himself. In other words, you could save this group and let the terrorist get away - knowing there would most likely be a "next group" in the future. That's a legitimate dilemma. In that scenario your team's actions are not the reason the hostages might die.

I also don't buy the notion that killing the head of the Blue Suns is going to serve any purpose in terms of making the galaxy a better place (or that Zaeed even cares about that). He will most assuredly be replaced immediately with the second ranking Blue Sun (who may conceivably be worse). Make no mistake, you are killing the Blue Suns leader because he tried to Kill Zaeed and innocents are expendable when Zaeed wants to get back at someone.

The only way this quest can be seen as any kind of moral dilemma is if the workers are somehow affiliated with the Suns and not innocent workers. My understanding though is that the Suns have taken over the refinery and these are the workers who were there when that happened.

I can't complain though since I get the option to rid the galaxy of this putz at the end of his mission.

Modifié par davidshooter, 27 mars 2010 - 07:09 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

That sounds pretty similar to me



Except in the Zaeed case you take the chance, you don't know if they will die if you go after Vido and you don't know that Vido will get away if you go and save the workers. In BDTS the consequences are right in your face.

[Never]

I... I have a little bit of a crush on him :x Good thing he wasn't an LI.

[davidshooter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

That sounds pretty similar to me

Except in the Zaeed case you take the chance, you don't know if they will die if you go after Vido and you don't know that Vido will get away if you go and save the workers. In BDTS the consequences are right in your face.

You know they're going to die, and you know you (Zaeed) are the reason they are in danger in the first place.

Modifié par davidshooter, 27 mars 2010 - 07:11 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

davidshooter wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

That sounds pretty similar to me

Except in the Zaeed case you take the chance, you don't know if they will die if you go after Vido and you don't know that Vido will get away if you go and save the workers. In BDTS the consequences are right in your face.

You know the're going to die, and you know you (Zaeed) are the reason they are in danger in the first place.

You can't be 100 positive, you can safely assume they are going to die (which in the end they do) but one guy made it out and couldn't turn of the valves himself?  There is some room for speculation at that moment.

[N7 MACK]

Zaeed's my favorite character. His backstory is more complex than any other characters story-wise, and is probably the best in combat (in my opinion).

[Urazz]

davidshooter wrote...

I don't think it's like BDTS at all. In that mission you had the option to save people a terrorist had set up to die or you could go after the terrorist himself. In other words, you could save this group and let the terrorist get away - knowing there would most likely be a "next group" in the future. That's a legitimate dilemma. In that scenario your team's actions are not the reason the hostages might die.

I also don't buy the notion that killing the head of the Blue Suns is going to serve any purpose in terms of making the galaxy a better place (or that Zaeed even cares about that). He will most assuredly be replaced immediately with the second ranking Blue Sun (who may conceivably be worse). Make no mistake, you are killing the Blue Suns leader because he tried to Kill Zaeed and innocents are expendable when Zaeed wants to get back at someone.

The only way this quest can be seen as any kind of moral dilemma is if the workers are somehow affiliated with the Suns and not innocent workers. My understanding though is that the Suns have taken over the refinery and these are the workers who were there when that happened.

I can't complain though since I get the option to rid the galaxy of this putz at the end of his mission.

Killing Vido would make the galaxy a better place in the short run actually.   It would cause the Blue Sun to have to do some infighting amongst the leadership if they don't have an actual line of command set up should something happen to the leader at a certain point.

[OniGanon]

davidshooter wrote...

I don't think it's like BDTS at all. In that mission you had the option to save people a terrorist had set up to die or you could go after the terrorist himself. In other words, you could save this group and let the terrorist get away - knowing there would most likely be a "next group" in the future. That's a legitimate dilemma. In that scenario your team's actions are not the reason the hostages might die.

I also don't buy the notion that killing the head of the Blue Suns is going to serve any purpose in terms of making the galaxy a better place (or that Zaeed even cares about that). He will most assuredly be replaced immediately with the second ranking Blue Sun (who may conceivably be worse). Make no mistake, you are killing the Blue Suns leader because he tried to Kill Zaeed and innocents are expendable when Zaeed wants to get back at someone.

That it's Zaeed's actions that put the workers in danger is irrelevant. The fact remains that it's your choice to try and save them and risk Vido escaping, or chase Vido and risk the workers dying. That Zaeed is motivated by revenge is irrelevant; it's your motivation that matters. The question remains: how far are you willing to go to put a criminal like Vido down?

It's pretty similar to the question presented to you in BDTS. The major difference is that BDTS has definites. Either everyone lives, or everyone dies, mutually exclusive definite outcomes. In Zaeed's mission, whether the workers will die or Vido can be caught is unknown at the time of choosing. The Paragon could argue that it may be possible to save the workers and still catch Vido, and it's not worth the risk of innocent lives when capture is not guaranteed. The Renegade may argue that the workers could survive without your help since at least one of them managed to escape, and it's not worth risking the flight of a monster like Vido if the necessity of your help is not even certain.

That Vido's replacement could be worse than him doesnt make him deserve death any less. That's not the Renegade way of thinking, anyway. For a Renegade, "it's not the severity of punishment that deters criminals, it's the certainty of it." I think it sends a message to whoever takes the reins: it doesn't matter if you're hidden away on some obscure planet way out in the Terminus systems; there is nowhere to hide; no amount of armed men, mechs and innocent hostages will save you; if you earn the attention of a Spectre, you and everyone in your general vicinity is dead.

[davidshooter]

I don't agree that Zaeed starting the fire is irrelevant - it is the whole point - but I don't really have much inclination to go any further on Zaeed. I don't think there is any defense for letting dozens of people burn to death in a fire your team started so a hired merc can get his revenge. But as I said, I can't complain when I get to let the wannabe tough guy burn in his own flames at the end.

[Kurupt87]

That's fine david, but there's nothing wannabe about him.

[Tes4o]

The only problem I have with him is that he doesn't have a dialogue wheel. Other than that, he seems pretty cool.

[binaryemperor]

Zaeed just does not spew out his life story every time Shepard initiates dialog with him like Engine-Scrubber. Star-Gazer, and Gun-Calibrator do.



Take him on missions with you. He's a flexible squaddie. Good against mechs and biotics. You'll notice he has a lot to say about everything.

[KOKitten]

We also don't know anything about Thane's victims, except for the fact that he killed whoever he was contracted to kill. Were they criminals or were they simply "in the way" of influential Hanar? A lot of them could have been innocent people. There is just no way to know.

If my Shepard is willing to give Thane, an assassin, a chance at redemption, there's no reason he/she would not do the same for Zaeed.

[Bill569]

I really like Zaeed. Very interesting personality.

[BlackFox26]

Zaeed is pretty bad ass teammate if your looking for damage output combined with garrus. He does have a backstory if you want to listen and look for it. Him founding the blue suns could , if you did kill vito, sway him to become leader of the already weakened blue suns mercenary group. Which could help you against the reapers in Mass effect 3.

Hes definitely not the best, but not a waste by any measure; i think

Modifié par BlackFox26, 27 mars 2010 - 10:50 .

[galbergoth]

I don't like him because I was in the Marines, I have met people who have killed people, who have saved people, who have been in the fire, who have come within inches of death. They act NOTHING like that. The only way they'd talk about what they went through is if you got them good and drunk or if you were a very close friend or had gone through it with them. When you do good deeds like Zaeed claims to have done, you negate the worth of doing them by bragging about it. It makes you just another show-off, not a hero. Anyone who'd really done the things he's claimed to have done would keep their mouth shut and do their job. And if he was so concerned about an eight-year-old girl and what happened to Jack then why would he not give a crap about killing a bunch of innocent refinery workers? I think mostly, he was a badly implemented character and I also think it hurt my liking of him that I didn't install him into the game until I was already lvl 22 and half-way through the story. I don't like him because I've met people who really did do things like that and who ever wrote this character didn't have a freaking clue what those kind of people are really like.

[Radahldo]

davidshooter wrote...


I also don't buy the notion that killing the head of the Blue Suns is going to serve any purpose in terms of making the galaxy a better place (or that Zaeed even cares about that). He will most assuredly be replaced immediately with the second ranking Blue Sun (who may conceivably be worse). Make no mistake, you are killing the Blue Suns leader because he tried to Kill Zaeed and innocents are expendable when Zaeed wants to get back at someone.

The puppet leader--Solem Del'Serah-- is still in place. So you would not only need to find a competent person to step in, Del'Serah would need to find this person competent enough to defer to him  in Vido's place. I just don't see that happening, and  some sort of war within their ranks is bound to occur, especially if the veil obfuscating the true leadership falls down.   
The person that steps in may not find it as rewarding to pay-off Solem to placate the various batarians, for example.
It probably won't effect their recruiting that much, but it most likely will cripple their larger criminal ventures.

Modifié par Radahldo, 28 mars 2010 - 12:21 .

[ODST Steve]

galbergoth wrote...

I don't like him because I was in the Marines, I have met people who have killed people, who have saved people, who have been in the fire, who have come within inches of death. They act NOTHING like that. The only way they'd talk about what they went through is if you got them good and drunk or if you were a very close friend or had gone through it with them. When you do good deeds like Zaeed claims to have done, you negate the worth of doing them by bragging about it. It makes you just another show-off, not a hero. Anyone who'd really done the things he's claimed to have done would keep their mouth shut and do their job. And if he was so concerned about an eight-year-old girl and what happened to Jack then why would he not give a crap about killing a bunch of innocent refinery workers? I think mostly, he was a badly implemented character and I also think it hurt my liking of him that I didn't install him into the game until I was already lvl 22 and half-way through the story. I don't like him because I've met people who really did do things like that and who ever wrote this character didn't have a freaking clue what those kind of people are really like.

You have met people that have roamed the galaxy and killed different species of inteligent organisms. I'm not trying to sound like an arse but the culture of ME is completely different than our own. Killing in the real world for the most part is frowned upon. In ME killing is everyday and ways no heavy price because of how many people there are. So when someone says "I killed a Krogan"  its social influence is much different than someone from the military defending their country. Killing others in ME is more similiar to game hunting than it is to actual military defence.

Modifié par ODST Steve, 28 mars 2010 - 12:23 .

[galbergoth]

That's not what I'm talking about. You talk to anyone who has a half a heart or soul that has taken another life and I promise you he will refuse to talk about it. If it's so easy for Zaeed to kill people then why would he bother boasting about it? It'd be like someone boasting about having shot a squirrel. With how much he's done he wouldn't even feel it important enough to talk about.

[ODST Steve]

galbergoth wrote...

That's not what I'm talking about. You talk to anyone who has a half a heart or soul that has taken another life and I promise you he will refuse to talk about it. If it's so easy for Zaeed to kill people then why would he bother boasting about it? It'd be like someone boasting about having shot a squirrel. With how much he's done he wouldn't even feel it important enough to talk about.

I know it sounds weird but I know people who would brag about shooting small game. don't get me wrong I don't agree with it but its just their mentality and culture. I think killing game like dear on a full stomach is such a waste yet people do it and brag about it. Thats what they see as "fun" and brings them joy and I can't argue with that. I find joy from playing games like ME and they think I'm crazy for not grabbing a gun and blowing off a deer's head. It's the same thing as in ME. A paragon Shep or even Anderson understands the value of one life and weighs that above everything else. Shep isn't proud when he has to kill. He does it because they focre him to. But then you have the game hunters like Zaeed who see killing as a sport. So to Zaeed killing 2 Batarians 1 Krogan and a Hanar was the most fun he'll ever have in his life. That's why I love this game becuase it metaphorrically brings forth all of society with all its flaws and pefections in a fun bite-size package.

[Kurupt87]

You're assuming the society found in ME has the same morals as we do. Maybe on Earth they do, and on a few perfect colonies perhaps, but places like omega and colonies in the terminus systems they would have a bleaker outlook, and correspondingly different morals. The guy on horizon for instance, hates the alliance and doesn't want to live under their protection, now to us that don't make an ounce of sense, but to him it does.

What we mean is that killing doesn't mean the same thing to them as it does to us. We live in a world where killing is bad and weighs heavily upon our empathetic selves, in the ME universe killing is normal everyday business.

[ODST Steve]

The main point I'm trying to get across is that good sir OP you are under the beleif that a normal person whould frown upon the killing of others. Yet in the wrld today and in the world of ME there is no such thing as normal. Normal to me is much different to normal to you. So you hate Zaeed because he does not fit your description of normal which is not being open-minded. But to be honest do whatever makes you happy but don't hate bioware all they did was make an interesting character.

PS: I know my spelling sucks. Sorry about that.

Modifié par ODST Steve, 28 mars 2010 - 12:47 .

[galbergoth]

Ok, then if killing isn't a big deal, why does he boast about it? And if he had half a brain he would never let on how dangerous he really is, especially if he was already betrayed by someone he trusted. He doesn't know Shepard from Adam, why would he trust him/her with the truth of what he's capable of? A man of action like he claims to be would always show his ability through action, and never with his mouth. That's why I like Thane. He IS dangerous and deadly, but he doesn't brag about what he's done or how he did it. He sees it as his body was a well-crafted tool for taking life. Which makes a hell-of-lot more sense psychologically.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Zaeed's purpose is to be the old war dog. You know how in action movies or zombie movies there's always an old guy that just likes to tell stories and have everyone else listen to him cause he doesn't have time for none of your sass? Honestly after listening to EACH AND EVERY ONE OF HIS STORIES until he looped (lots of stories) I feel like I know more about him than I do THANE. There's advantages to the third person dialogue, mainly that you don't have to sit through a few choices and skip "i'm busy" dialogue when you're just trying to romance. I kinda wish everyone would default to a third person style "I'm busy" or "thanks" after you exhausted thier dialogue options.. It flows better.