284 réponses à ce sujet

[God_Emperor]

I have ME and ME 2 for the PC. The fact that ME has limited installs made me almost not buy it, I caved at the last second but have ski[pped games with similar (or worse) DRMs such as Bioshock and Assassin's Creed 2. Luckily Bioware/EA released that tool to free up installs after that fiasco, but Assassin's Creed might as well not exist for me.



Should ME 3 implement any kind of system which limits installs, or worse. force me to be online all the time then I will simply not buy it. I will never support such draconian and not to mention absurd and completely useless restrictive methods which violate my user license agreement and installs malware into my comp, not to mention that it only affects me the paying customer negatively while pirates remain completely oblivious to the effects of such a futile mechanic.



The shift from changing the security system from ME to ME 2 PC was positive for the customer and I hope that ME 3 follows in the same vein as ME 2. .



My two cents...

[Phoenix1746]

I will never play any Singleplayer game with a DRM that requires a Full Time Connection.

I play from India and internet connections are not as stable here.

Modifié par Phoenix1746, 28 mars 2010 - 06:21 .

[KabraxisObliv]

I'm (nearly) always online and never had problems with DRM.

And because ME2 (and 1) is one of the best games ever developed, I would buy ME3 even if it would have this new Ubi-DRM.

Edit:
But of course I hope it will be DRM-free.

Modifié par KabraxisObliv, 28 mars 2010 - 06:27 .

[X2-Elijah]

Hmm. If ME3 or DA2 requires me to be online constantly while playing, then I won't buy the games. If they keep the current "Master EA account + login on start for DLCs etc", I'll live with it and buy both games.



Simple as that. I consider the UbiDRM to be the worst thing for PC gaming so far, and I won't get the games using it at all.

[Eag07]

God_Emperor wrote...

I have ME and ME 2 for the PC. The fact that ME has limited installs made me almost not buy it, I caved at the last second but have ski[pped games with similar (or worse) DRMs such as Bioshock and Assassin's Creed 2. Luckily Bioware/EA released that tool to free up installs after that fiasco, but Assassin's Creed might as well not exist for me.

Should ME 3 implement any kind of system which limits installs, or worse. force me to be online all the time then I will simply not buy it. I will never support such draconian and not to mention absurd and completely useless restrictive methods which violate my user license agreement and installs malware into my comp, not to mention that it only affects me the paying customer negatively while pirates remain completely oblivious to the effects of such a futile mechanic.

The shift from changing the security system from ME to ME 2 PC was positive for the customer and I hope that ME 3 follows in the same vein as ME 2. .

My two cents...

My thoughts exactly. I own both ME and ME2 and the only reason I bought ME1 was that it was published with the "normal" CD check copy protection (same as ME2 has) in my country. Excellent game or not, I will never buy a game that has limited number of installations or goddess forbid requires constant internet connection...

[et2cetera]

No DRM! They can't stuff such things down our throats! Won't buy if they do.

Which part of single-player does the publisher not understand - single-player is not multi-player where constant connection is a requirement - hence, no need for constant connection. Even the cerberus connection is marginally tolerated.

[Magister Lajciak]

craigdolphin wrote...

Folks, I think you're jumping the gun here. Perhaps some of you are not aware of the ...furore... that erupted on the old Bioware forums over the DRM used on ME1.

I was a part of that reaction and Chris Priestly probably still gets a nervous twitch whenever he sees my username. Poor chap.

Suffice to say that there were literally dozens of threads, some with well over 100+ pages of posts, with a very thorough analysis of the issues from many of Bioware's customers, ranting at the devs/EA from many of the same, and even some folks joining in class-action lawsuits over the issue. Bioware eventually went into damage control mode (IMO)....shuffling off the discussion into the offtopic area where the discussion continued and attitudes became increasing poisonous. And the end result of all of that, as Dan Moar noted, was that the DRM used on DA:O and ME2 was absolutely brilliant compared to that on ME1. Bioware could say nothing during the forum debates, but they made the right call in the end.

I believe that there was a bit of a stand made by Bioware, on behalf of their fans and because they knew that type of DRM harms them commercially.  The eventual decision to release DA:O and ME2 with a reasonable copy protection system represented a significant departure from EA's previously stated DRM-policy, which was that ALL EA games would use the SecuROM system used on ME1, Spore, etc. The fact that DA:O and ME2 have all sold great volumes without the dubious benefits of insane DRM like that used by Ubisoft and the C&C division of EA really does poke a stick in the eye of the pro-DRM argument IMO. I suspect that even John Riccitiello will be forced to admit that Bioware made the right call.

I think Bioware's DLC approach to the issue of second hand sales generating no cash for developers is a vastly more intelligent strategy than the DRM approach. And I suspect that no one in Bioware EVER wants to go through the PR hell and unrelenting anger of many of their most hardcore fans again. I would be stunned if the DRM on ME3 or DA2 changed significantly from what we saw this time around. And naturally, my attitude to purchasing games with that kind of DRM has not changed.

All I'm saying is that this is not the first time gamers have explained their discontent about excessive DRM systems to Bioware. Loudly. Persistently. Angrily. Their actions with DAO and ME2 prove that they get it. Until any evidence is found to suggest otherwise, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, I remember. I think everybody who was there at the time remembers. This topic came up not out of the blue, though, but rather because EA is trying its DDRM shenanigans again and they are even worse than last time. This time the victim is Command & Conquer 4, but who knows whether they decide to push this onto other games as well, perhaps even Bioware games. Myself, I am fairly optimistic that we will see the same customer-friendly DRM we have seen on DA:O on Bioware's future games, or at least on those in the near future and most seem to agree. Notice that most people are not assuming that Bioware will use such draconian DRM (DDRM) and are speaking in hypotheticals... IF... THAN... so this appears to be more akin to a warning shot than an outcry.

On a related note, Command & Conquer 4 appears to have the perfect storm for ruining a franchise. A marriage of massively unpopular changes to franchise traditions with the most draconian DRM yet devised may well result in a major commercial flop.

Meanwhile, EA is not alone in its attack against customers. In fact, so far, EA is playing second fiddle. Ubisoft is leading a full frontal assault against all of its customers and is planning to include this extreme form of DDRM in all future games. Well, that means no Ubisoft games for me unless that changes. Not even my favorite Might and Magic franchise - simply no way.

[Tamcia]

Its sad that companies try to prevent pirating at the cost of paying customer experience. Basically they are saying that we care more about combating pirates then caring about our customers. They can go to hell with DRM.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Bigeyez wrote...

Duduris wrote...

Those comparisons are only for phisical copies of the games they don't include the sales from the Digital versions of the games, like the ones sold on Steam.I wonder why...

The Steam Community consists of about 10 million people (Edit: 25 million active accounts total; one of which is me! yay!) as reported by Valve themselves. (Source ---> http://store.steampo....com/news/3390/)

As of May 28 2009 Xbox 360 sales surpassed the 30-million mark worldwide, which has grown even further since then. (Source --> http://www.gamasutra...php?story=23796)
As of December  31 2009 Sony reports that the PS3 has sold 33.5 million units worldwide. (Source --> http://www.scei.co.j...ps3_sale_e.html)
As of December 31 2009 Nintendo reports the Wii has sold 67.45 million units worldwide. (Source --> http://www.joystiq.c...-to-67-million/)

I'm not even going to bother looking up sales for handhelds which for both PSP and DS are also in the millions, upon millions worldwide. The DS last time I checked was at some insane number like 125 million.

The PC market is smaller then the console/handheld market, peroid.

Of course people like you only show the facts that prove their point.

As of June 2008, the number of personal computers in use worldwide hit one billion, while another billion is expected to be reached by 2014. Mature markets like the United States, Western Europe and Japan accounted for 58 percent of the worldwide installed PCs. The emerging markets were expected to double their installed PCs by 2013 and to take 70 percent of the second billion PCs. About 180 million computers (16 percent of the existing installed base) were expected to be replaced and 35 million to be dumped into landfill in 2008. The whole installed base grew 12 percent annually.

Source:
Personal Computer: Market and sales.
Computers in use pass 1 billion mark: Gartner.
Gartner Says More than 1 Billion PCs In Use Worldwide and Headed to 2 Billion Units by 2014.

Jon Peddie Research estimates 46% of the dollars spent in 2009 on gaming motivated PC hardware were directed toward what the firm calls the Enthusiast class. This is the top-of-the line stuff: boutique PCs, high-end processors and graphics cards, SSD's, specialized gaming mice, keyboards, speakers, monitors, etc.

JPR is forecasting a shift in product mix demand as the worldwide PC gaming user base continues to increase in size. By 2013 the Enthusiast class will lose market share to the Performance and Mainstream classes from 46% to 35% of dollars spent. The good news for Enthusiast hardware producers is that this "market share shrink" occurs in an expanding market and expenditures on the Enthusiast class will grow from $9.5 billion to almost $12.5 billion in 2013.

Source: Jon Peddie Research Surveys PC Gaming Hardware Market and Calculates Worldwide DIY/Upgrade TAM.

Jon Peddie Research (JPR), the industry's research and consulting firm for graphics and multimedia, today announced the market forecast for PC gaming hardware, and the results are better than previously expected.

The worldwide PC gaming hardware market (systems, accessories, and upgrades) is forecasted to gain $1.2 billion for 2009, which is a 5.9% increase versus 2008 (from $20.07 to $21.26 billion). The increase is due to higher than anticipated consumer demand for Enthusiast, Performance, and Mainstream hardware influenced by the ability to play video games ranging from casual to hardcore simulations.

Due to significant growth across all major markets the worldwide PC gaming hardware market is expected to skyrocket 30% in 2010. Senior Video Game Industry Analyst at JPR, Ted Pollak, credits this growth to a number of factors. “The largest influence on the high forecasted growth rate is due to purchasing delays for systems and upgrades in 2008/2009 as consumers circled the wagons and took a conservative position on discretionary spending. A recovering economy, processing advancements, and higher quality gaming offerings will all contribute to a healthy year for PC gaming hardware in 2010.”

Source: PC Gaming Hardware Forecast to Reach $27 Billion in 2010.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 mars 2010 - 10:19 .

[OneBadAssMother]

Had a talk with some folks and it does seem C&C4 and AC2 has been barely released and Electronics Boutique (Aussie retailer) already had to knock $10 off the price but still few are even buying, and those who did were furious that they cant return it (cause its online activated). Now the reps are forced to let everything know -



"YOU NEED PERMANENT CONNECTION, if your connection drops out - you get kicked off the game... yes I know it's singleplayer... well ok, don't buy it then"

Not much of a sales pitch eh? Heh.



Mass Effect 2 however, says comfortable at still $98. Sales are going fine.



One thing to note too, in AUS, internet-connection is always finnicky, nothing we can do about it. I've tried 3 different ISPs all supposedly 'top-end' but never gaurantees. So if such ridicolous DRM gets into future games, you will lose the MAJORITY of Australian customers.

[Drake Sigar]

If ME3 has DRM, SecuRom, online activations, limited activations, forced subscription to certain sites, or requires continuous Internet connectivity, I won't be buying it. In fact Dragon Age is the only modern PC game I've bought in almost two years for this reason. Got a the top of the line compter and I'm buying up decade old games.

I'm definitely willing to back up my convictions.

Modifié par Drake Sigar, 28 mars 2010 - 01:00 .

[OneBadAssMother]

I feel sorry for the sales folks trying to sell the DRM games too heh

[uzivatel]

If the game saves in the background continually to avoid loss of progress and the service has no downtime, it should not matter.

That said, being console gamer I dont have to care about stuff like that ... for now.

[Karstedt]

Absolutely not.

[darkshadow136]

If it is like the DRM Ubisoft did with Assassins creed 2 I will not buy it. I read reviews from people that had a nightmare with the whole DRM for that game, the fact that they may have an internet connection but Ubisoft servers crashed all the time hence their game stopped being playable with all progress lost.



When a person buys a game unless it is a real online game like a MMO. People should be able to play without an internet connection. If they want additional content or support then they need an internet connection for registering and getting any new product for their existing game.

[Bigeyez]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Bigeyez wrote...

Duduris wrote...

Those comparisons are only for phisical copies of the games they don't include the sales from the Digital versions of the games, like the ones sold on Steam.I wonder why...

The Steam Community consists of about 10 million people (Edit: 25 million active accounts total; one of which is me! yay!) as reported by Valve themselves. (Source ---> http://store.steampo....com/news/3390/)

As of May 28 2009 Xbox 360 sales surpassed the 30-million mark worldwide, which has grown even further since then. (Source --> http://www.gamasutra...php?story=23796)
As of December  31 2009 Sony reports that the PS3 has sold 33.5 million units worldwide. (Source --> http://www.scei.co.j...ps3_sale_e.html)
As of December 31 2009 Nintendo reports the Wii has sold 67.45 million units worldwide. (Source --> http://www.joystiq.c...-to-67-million/)

I'm not even going to bother looking up sales for handhelds which for both PSP and DS are also in the millions, upon millions worldwide. The DS last time I checked was at some insane number like 125 million.

The PC market is smaller then the console/handheld market, peroid.

Of course people like you only show the facts that prove their point.

As of June 2008, the number of personal computers in use worldwide hit one billion, while another billion is expected to be reached by 2014. Mature markets like the United States, Western Europe and Japan accounted for 58 percent of the worldwide installed PCs. The emerging markets were expected to double their installed PCs by 2013 and to take 70 percent of the second billion PCs. About 180 million computers (16 percent of the existing installed base) were expected to be replaced and 35 million to be dumped into landfill in 2008. The whole installed base grew 12 percent annually.

Source:
Personal Computer: Market and sales.
Computers in use pass 1 billion mark: Gartner.
Gartner Says More than 1 Billion PCs In Use Worldwide and Headed to 2 Billion Units by 2014.

Jon Peddie Research estimates 46% of the dollars spent in 2009 on gaming motivated PC hardware were directed toward what the firm calls the Enthusiast class. This is the top-of-the line stuff: boutique PCs, high-end processors and graphics cards, SSD's, specialized gaming mice, keyboards, speakers, monitors, etc.

JPR is forecasting a shift in product mix demand as the worldwide PC gaming user base continues to increase in size. By 2013 the Enthusiast class will lose market share to the Performance and Mainstream classes from 46% to 35% of dollars spent. The good news for Enthusiast hardware producers is that this "market share shrink" occurs in an expanding market and expenditures on the Enthusiast class will grow from $9.5 billion to almost $12.5 billion in 2013.

Source: Jon Peddie Research Surveys PC Gaming Hardware Market and Calculates Worldwide DIY/Upgrade TAM.

Jon Peddie Research (JPR), the industry's research and consulting firm for graphics and multimedia, today announced the market forecast for PC gaming hardware, and the results are better than previously expected.

The worldwide PC gaming hardware market (systems, accessories, and upgrades) is forecasted to gain $1.2 billion for 2009, which is a 5.9% increase versus 2008 (from $20.07 to $21.26 billion). The increase is due to higher than anticipated consumer demand for Enthusiast, Performance, and Mainstream hardware influenced by the ability to play video games ranging from casual to hardcore simulations.

Due to significant growth across all major markets the worldwide PC gaming hardware market is expected to skyrocket 30% in 2010. Senior Video Game Industry Analyst at JPR, Ted Pollak, credits this growth to a number of factors. “The largest influence on the high forecasted growth rate is due to purchasing delays for systems and upgrades in 2008/2009 as consumers circled the wagons and took a conservative position on discretionary spending. A recovering economy, processing advancements, and higher quality gaming offerings will all contribute to a healthy year for PC gaming hardware in 2010.”

Source: PC Gaming Hardware Forecast to Reach $27 Billion in 2010.

As tempting as it is to point to the number of computers worldwide that number is pretty much meaningless when you are talking about the PC gaming market.

Do you really think every computer worldwide is even capable of playing new PC games? Of course not. If the 2 billion figure actually meant anything then why aren't we seeing numbers like 30-40 million units sold on games for PC? Modern Warfare 2 sold 7 million copies the first week (breaking sales records) and thats on the, according to you, smaller console market, so why don't we hear about PC games selling 10 or 20 million units? I mean with 1 billion PCs currently worldwide that should be guarenteed right!?! The numbers just don't work that way.

Sadly there are no numbers I can point you so that we could all see what percantage of worldwide computers are actually used for gaming, (they don't exist, even counting just the high end market doesn't really count how many computers are used for gaming) but it is a pretty safe bet to say it's a small percantage of those 2 billion and it's smaller then the console/handheld markets.

As far as PC Gaming Hardware Forecast to Reach $27 Billion in 2010. So the market for high performance PCs will reach $27 billion in 2010? Um cool I guess, but that really doesn't tell you much when we're talking about PC gaming sales. You also have to remember World of Warcraft alone accounts for 1.7 Billion a year (admittedly a bloated number because chinese subs aren't as high as US/Europe so it's really more complicated then $15*10 million) in just subscription fees, so thats not even counting box sales, or paid services like name changes/transfer. Thats a single game accounting for a huge chunk of gross profits every year on the PC. Add in every other mmo and you would find that mmo's alone make up an insane amount of gross profits for the PC market every year. So even when you do find out what the gross profits for PC gaming really is every year you have to take into account that a largest % of that comes from the mmo community.

Then on top of all that you have to remember how much more complex the PC market is. Take the 10 million peoople who play World of Warcraft for example. To play WoW all you need is a low-budget computer and even some several years old can play the game without any problems. One of WoW's draws is that you don't need a good computer to play it.

Now look at a game like Crysis where when it launched you needed a high end computer to play it. That in itself severely limits the market you can reach.

Again just because it is smaller does not mean that I'm saying its bad/unprofitable/whatever. You guys are acting like I'm speaking heresy here. Further more if the PC market was really in the "billions" wouldn't you think every publisher and developer would put up with piracy in order to tap into that market. Why do developers go multi-platform in order to reach larger markets if the PC market is as big as you guys are trying to claim? Why do we even bother with consoles if according to your logic 2 billion computers will be a part of the PC gaming market in 2014?!! Why when you look at top franchise sales you see very few (if any) PC only franchises? Is it some Mario/Halo/GTA/Call of Duty conspiracy to hog all those lifetime sales spots and bury any evidence of PC sales surpassing them???

Be realistic here. You can't look at 2 billion computers and say "see the market is bigger!". You can't even look at just the high end section of PCs and say "see the market is bigger!". You don't know how many of those high end computers are used for games.

Come on you guys are either being dishonest with yourselves or are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing. I am in no way saying console>PC or any stupid things like that. I am simply stating the FACT that the video game market for the PC platform is smaller then the market on consoles and handhelds. Nothing you linked says otherwise and both developers and publishers have made statements agreeing with that fact.

Edit: I also love how you managed to throw in the "people like you" line. Rule 101 of debates: It's not about proving you're right, but proving the other side is wrong! classic internet right there.

-----------------------------
To clarify my point even further here is the ESA release regarding the total software sales for 2008. http://www.theesa.co...sp?releaseID=44

This is sales only so subscriptions (mmo's) are not included in the numbers found there.

This quote in particular is interesting

"The NPD Group revealed that, in 2008, total U.S. video game console software sales reached $8.9 billion (189.0 million units), PC game sales hit $701.4 million (29.1 million units), and portable software topped last year’s record sales with $2.1 billion (79.5 million units) in revenue. Overall, retailers sold approximately 297.6 million computer and video games last year. "

So in the U.S, one of the game industries largest markets, PC sales account for only $701.4 million. This is completely dwarfed by the  $8.9 billion and $2.1 billion consoles and handhelds pulled in.

---------

To sum this all up, is the PC market important? Yes, and it should be more important to more publishers/devs.
Is the PC market profitable? Yes, very profitable especially with digital downloads lowering middleman costs.
Is the PC market growing? Yes, of course it is, and so are the console/handheld markets.
Is the PC market larger then the console/handheld market? Nope, not at all.

Modifié par Bigeyez, 28 mars 2010 - 02:54 .

[Darkened Dragon]

Heh I stopped buying games with Atari's Logo on it for their Securom BS with NWN, NWN2, and The Witcher (The Witcher being the last I bought) and Ubisoft for their AC2 fiasco (hence why I never have or will buy AC2) .. so regardless of whether or not its a good game I will not support any company that uses intrusive DRM ... especially if they use it while claiming its DRM free. I won't even support their console games if they push such DRM's on the PC ones. So I hope they drop it and discontinue using that method since I like Bioware games.

[nikki191]

well the latest news is that ubisoft is trying to make it up to AC2 pc players by offering them a free game or stuff off the collectors edition as a sorry for screwing you around

[Tankfriend]

AC2 Black edition customers get a free game as compensation.
All other AC2 people just get all the Black Edition extra content for free as compensation.
At least that's what I've heard so far from the I-Net about AC2 compensations.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good idea to give people something for all their troubles in general.
It's just that UBI apparently sees Black Edition customers as more eligible to a compensation than all the other people, despite the fact that everyone has the exact same problems. If anything, everyone should get an equal compensation. This way, however, the normal customers get something worth, let's say, 10$ and 2 hours of playtime while the Black Edition customers get something easily worth 30$ and 8+ hours of playtime. Not exactly what I would call equal compensation for everyone.

And that's not even to mention that the best compensation for everyone they could offer would be to get rid of that system entirely...

[uzivatel]

Tankfriend wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good idea to give people something for all their troubles in general.

I believe they are compensating people because of the DoS attack.

It's just that UBI apparently sees Black Edition customers as more eligible to a compensation than all the other people, despite the fact that everyone has the exact same problems. If anything, everyone should get an equal compensation.

Of course, Black Edition owners had to pay more - they get bigger compensation.
That and they already have the extra content other players get.

This way, however, the normal customers get something worth, let's say, 10$ and 2 hours of playtime while the Black Edition customers get something easily worth 30$ and 8+ hours of playtime. Not exactly what I would call equal compensation for everyone.

Many people are complaining about the games they may choose from (imo the only good game is Prince of Persia), while normal edition owners get more Assassins Creed II, which makes more sense.

And that's not even to mention that the best compensation for everyone they could offer would be to get rid of that system entirely...

Especially pirates 

Modifié par uzivatel, 28 mars 2010 - 04:15 .

[darkshadow136]

nikki191 wrote...

well the latest news is that ubisoft is trying to make it up to AC2 pc players by offering them a free game or stuff off the collectors edition as a sorry for screwing you around

Thats all well and good that they are doing that for their customers that they screwed with the DRM noncence but it boils down to this, Offline game=Offline play, Online games aka MMO'S= Online play. A offline games ability to play should not depend on a internet connection or the companies servers staying up.

[Eurypterid]

ThePasserby wrote...

EA's editor has slammed the new DRM system used by EA on Command and Conquer 4.

You can read this short article here: www.videogamer.com/news/ea_slams_its_c_and_c4_drm.html

With this new DRM system, the player has to have his/her internet connection up always. Losing it even for a moment results in the game being forced back to the main menu and all progress, presumably from the last save, lost.

What if ME3 were to use this DRM as well? If EA forces it on C & C 4, chances are, it mightl foist it on ME3 as well. Would you still buy the game?

No.