701 réponses à ce sujet

[TuringPoint]

Again, you don't seem to have read this, Shanda

Alocormin wrote...

It's not whether they had a reason.  It's whether their reason made any sense that matters.

An example someone else put up of evil is, "sick that thresher maw on them because it'll be funny."  That is evil because the reason is flimsy.  If the reason Cerberus caused Akuze was flimsy, the Illusive Man might as well have been doing it for kicks.

Your assumption that Cerberus had good reasons for doing this is quite baseless.  
Kraken was voicing common sense, not that common sense is always right.

Some interesting opinions you have, though.  I just choose to disagree with them

[Lord Coake]

Alocormin wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
Cerberus needs to worry about humanity as a whole, 

A little confused?  You go from saying they can't help all of humanity to saying they're not doing that in order to help all of humanity.

I understand that tactical choices need to be made.  It is a fairly limited organization and that involves desperate measures.  But why is it such a hush-hush, limited organization?

The Alliance makes tactical choices too, I imagine.  But if you could prove that every tactical choice made by Cerberus helped humanity, that would be fine.  

However, we don't have enough information to say that, and we have implications from TIM himself that Cerberus will go much, much farther to achieve human dominance in the galaxy.

Human dominance.  

Not just survival.  

Even if they were just out for human survival, they would be the equivalent to people who live a life expecting their death at all times in real life - meaning, they don't get a lot done, and they're a lot more likely to end up in dire situations because of their own stupidity.  If you transfer that quality into an organization... I don't really like where that would lead humanity.

Becuase they know that if they ever go public, they'd rightly be rounded up to a man, tried, and executed for everything from muder to treason to full on crimes against humanity.

In other words, TIM knows his organization is power hungry and evil to to core, but doesn't give a damn so long as he keeps getting his.

[TheLostGenius]

Shandepared wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

I can respect a person who is at least consistent in their morality and/or viewpoint even if I disagree with it vehemently, or one who admits that they have issues with their own moral compass. Your morality isn't complex, it's FUBARed. And worse, you don't even realize this.

You have piqued my curiosity. Please give me a detailed analsys of my morality and exactly which positions I hold which you feel are inconsisent or even contradictory.

You eat babies. You approve of most major crimes. You enjoy watching innocent people suffering. You think genocide is hip. You think war is totally rad, and the more people that die the brighter your day gets. You always lie on first dates. You want to be the President Of The United States. You are constantly watching porn. You never shower. You talk to serial killers in internet forums and think that it is "very interesting". You once tortured a Parrot, so badly that both of its wings were removed. You laugh when you read the Obituaries, and you snarl at puppies.


Did I miss something?

[TuringPoint]

Shandepared wrote...

You're saying that Cerberus should be running around making sure every single human has a comfy life and a pleasant state of mind. I'm saying that if they tried that they'd never accomplish anything. They need to advance the collective interests of humanity, that doesn't mean protecting and guarding every individual human. You want them to be a charity. Cerberus does not have unlimited resources or people. They need to devote their time and effort towards things that will pay-off in the long run.

The missile launch mission is the perfect example. You'd want Cerberus to save the most lives, but in reality you'd do more good saving the industrial district because then the colony can survive, rebuild, and grow. Humanity also doesn't lose face by having yet another colony get wiped out.

I don't want them to be a charity.  I want them to have reasons that make sense.  Work towards  the common good and be shady about it, but at least be clear that you're working for common good.  Cerberus acts alone, even if it takes money, resources, and information from those willing to cooperate.

He is definitely an interesting advocate, and I don't quite think he needs to be hunted down.  He and cerberus have uses, but the way they define those uses - the way they define how they can do the most good for humanity - has thus far proven ineffective, costly, and dangerous in numerous sit.

I do think every individual human... working for that is great.  But they aren't working for every individual human.  They're working for the domination of humanity above all other races, which is not even what all humans want, you can be assured of that.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[Internet Kraken]

Shandepared wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...





You know, if you're so

confident that something productive that advanced human interests came

out of this, then tell me, what could it possibly be?

I speak but you do not listen.

Please answer the question. If you can't think of anything productive that came from these experiments, then why do you defend them? You don't need to be a scientist to realize that feeding a ton of people to worms is cruel and unnecessary. The impression I get from Cerberus is that they don't value human life and just preform experiments to satisfy their curiosities. What other reason is there to inject acid into the veins of a soldier?



The kelp forests recently discovered in the waters near Antarctica has algae that contain a defensive chemical to ward of consumers. Scientists believe that the chemical may be used to combat one form of cancer. Due to regulations, they will have to spend many years testing this chemical in many ways to see what they can learn from it. Now if Cerberus was involved, they would just strap some poor bastard down and inject it straight into his veins, for science! Now, would you approve of that?

[Nightwriter]

Fact is, all of Cerberus's operations and reasonings sound good in theory.

It's when you walk into a facility and find Thorian creepers and mad rachni raging unchecked, the floor carpeted in lifeless bodies and the place in ruins, that you realize that perhaps the reality of it is quite different.

[TuringPoint]

...

Kraken, it sounds like he would.

Cerberus is like the general in the cold war that wanted to nuke china. And send soldiers into the fallout to fight a land battle.

They have ideas that would work and be the most direct, in theory, but in reality cause all sorts of complication and danger that people otherwise wouldn't have to deal with.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 mars 2010 - 05:28 .

[TheLostGenius]

Cereberus is evil and traitorous. The Alliance is imperfect as is the Council, but they at least adhere to basic rules of decency, and try to avoid conflict and are usually ethical in all of their direct dealings.

[TuringPoint]

Ok. I should clarify something.



I said I don't want them to be a charity. I can see how I gave you that idea, maybe.



All I think is that if they ran super secret experiments that were dangerous or prohibitively costly, and they were a lot more careful about what they did as contingencies and were very clear to the people that worked for them that making kids fight each other in gladiator pits or injecting venom into someone's veins - these ideas are just stupid.



Cerberus shouldn't be involved with people who do these things, if it wants to avoid being associated with them. TIM says the subject zero installation crap was regrettable, and he never said necessary, and I believe him. But my god man, how many stupid ideas that don't work and put a lot of lives - human lives - at unnecessary risk - can one organization be responsible for?

[Goodwood]

"The road to perdition is paved with good intentions."



/thread

[Booglarize]

Alocormin wrote...

...

Kraken, it sounds like he would.

Cerberus is like the general in the cold war that wanted to nuke china. And send soldiers into the fallout to fight a land battle.

They have ideas that would work and be the most direct, in theory, but in reality cause all sorts of complication and danger that people otherwise wouldn't have to deal with.

It also helps to keep in mind that, barring the odd crazy individual, most of the people in our own world who we think of as evil probably genuinely believe that they're working for some greater good - certainly, most of the evil organizations (terrorist groups being a popular example these days) would fit this bill. 

[TuringPoint]

Shandepared wrote...

Alocormin wrote...


  I want them to have reasons that make sense.  Work towards  the common good and be shady about it, but at least be clear that you're working for common good.  Cerberus acts alone, even if it takes money, resources, and information from those willing to cooperate.

What more do you want? It's all right there in the open during the game. Cerberus paid money to bring you back to go after the Collectors. Along the way they risked colonies and even your life so that they could find a way to stop the Collectors. The mission summary for Horizon states that the Cerberus front corporation will pick up the tab covering the damage done to the colony and assist the survivors with money and material aid.

I'll be honest with you and admit that if I had any say in the matter Cerberus would be reigned in a bit. Certainly they wouldn't be answerable only to private individuals. I would keep them as part of but not really part of the Alliance. Individual financial backers is dangerous because there is no guarantee that any of them or even the Illusive Man will always care about the interests of the whole as opposed to the interests of the few.

Humans want a lot of different things, often things that aren't even in their own interests. Humanity rising above other races will ensure its autonomy and security. To prosper humans need to be able to expand their economy, their sphere of influence. Towards that end they need economic and military advantages.

To hold ourselves back out of a sense of "fair play" is stupid.

I do agree with a fair amount of things that Cerberus does.  It does some good.  This thing where it picks up the tab on assisting survivors on horizon.  But it doesn't always do that.  In the past, they have tried to blow up a quarian vessel, they have released Rachni on human colonies, unleashed a thresher maw on human soldiers without warning - couldn't they have said, "Soldiers, there's a chance of thresher maw attack.  We'll do our best to make sure you survive," because simply put, THAT would be more moral, honest, up front, and for that matter productive.  You would actually be testing the limits of what humanity could do.  Rather than just exposing them to certain death without any clear idea of what they would gain.

Humans rising above other races... good, up to a point.  If it's just superiority, and doesn't involve suppression of the other races.  Humanity benefits from trade, as do the other races.  Humanity also benefits in the long term, from having better relations with the other races if they don't try to suppress the other races.  It is possible to be assertive but sympathetic, and if Cerberus worked for humanity to do that, Cerberus would definitely be a good thing.  I think that perhaps Cerberus isn't in any position to do something that large... but that's not really an excuse.  And anyway, they probably could apply what resources they had, apply their "ends justify means" philosophy towards more reasonable ends and certainly expect delayed, but better, results.

It's not about fairness that I'm concerned about Cerberus.  It's about not losing sight of your real goals, which Cerberus seems to do frequently.

[Mycrus Ironfist]

it was in the one of the dialogues...



the asari have the commandos

the salarians have the STG

the council has the spectres

and humanity has cerberus...



i would call cerberus evil if all the experimentation was done on other species... but they are willing to experiment on human children to ensure survival of humanity... so they aren't evil... they are amoral and doing everything possible to save humanity...



btw, i play a soldier paragon that was exported from ME1... at the final decision point in ME2, i had no second thoughts in siding with Cerberus.

[TuringPoint]

To momentarily bring in world politics to establish a perspective, if all the presidents and government officials who had lied to us had bothered to do a little bit of explanation or at least pulling of strings to establish the credibility of their reasons, we might be a lot less suspicious of political activities. Same deal with Cerberus.

I would speculate that TIM wants to see humanity dominate within his lifetime. If it weren't at least a little bit of a twisted ego issue, he might be willing to put in motion some longer term, safer plans.

All that said, I think working to further humanity so aggressively and wrecklessly will help against the reapers... but in the future, if not in the past, Cerberus needs to more responsible, and to be held responsible. I don't think it should necessarily be dissolved either - just reigned in quite a lot. I agree with you on that, mostly.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 mars 2010 - 05:50 .

[Lord Coake]

Booglarize wrote...

Hmm... if some of the arguments made in this thread are to be believed, I guess a group like, say, Unit 731 can't really be considered "evil" either. After all, they were just conducting research, and if the postwar immunity deal is any indication, it looks like they actually made some useful discoveries too. 

By the same token, Dr. Mengele didn't qualify as Evil either, as the butchering piece of subhuman filth occasionally found something of medical worth while dissecting live Jewish children.

[TuringPoint]

Anyway, I agree with Kelly. It bugs me that some people don't want to see the good Cerberus does, just because they do some other things that are bad.

[Lord Coake]

Mycrus Ironfist wrote...

it was in the one of the dialogues...

the asari have the commandos
the salarians have the STG
the council has the spectres
and humanity has N7

Fixed that for you.  Cerberus is a criminal organization built around a core of traitorous Alliance officers and rich businessmen, not an Alliance special ops force.

[TuringPoint]

Shandepared wrote...

Roosevelt lied to and minipulated the American public to drag the United States into WWII. The American people wanted to no part of it but he made sure to find loopholes to allow him to help the allies anyway. It's amazing we managed to stay out of the war as long as we did.

What would he have explained to the American people to make them change their minds? Telling people the truth does not always encourage them to do the right thing. Especially when the truth is unpleasant.

The Collector base is a prime example. It's all right out their in the open. Capturing it will ensure our survival against the Reapers and beyond. Yet most people destroy it.

That's what I'm saying.  They could at least lie and manipulate us rather than pretending they're going to do one thing and then doing another thing.  Roosevelt was comparatively upfront in his intentions.  Cerberus doesn't do that, and it bites them in the ass when their cells keep going rogue and doing useless, very painful or dangerous research.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 mars 2010 - 05:56 .

[TuringPoint]

They really aren't. They are somewhat open with Shepard, but to everyone else they're practically invisible. They claim little to no responsibility for anything they do that turns out badly. I don't care so much about oversight if people can actually take responsibility and wisdom to the line with them when they're doing what needs to be done.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 mars 2010 - 05:58 .