701 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraneaux]

GodWood wrote...
]Annd doom the entire galaxy...

Brilliant idea.

Doesn't matter.  It's a game, there's going to be a way for you to beat the enemy one way or another.  It doesn't excuse poor characterization and bad writing.

[Terraneaux]

Internet Kraken wrote...

That's my problem with Cerberus. They always do reckless and dangerous things just because they can. I understand that sometimes we have to do extreme things to learn something. But that is not always the case. Cerberus always goes to the extreme just because they can. You don't need to feed an entire colony to thresher maws to learn what they can do. There are other ways to learn about a new species other than feeding people to them. You don't always need to do what Cerberus does just to advance. Hence why I think they are an unnecessary organization that needs to be disposed of, or at least see some major reform.

Exactly.  Cerberus is basically just evil for the lulz.

[GuardianAngel470]

You know what other organization is well intentioned? Al Qaeda. They believe in the betterment of the world through Jihad with America and Israel. They also believe the the destruction of the two aforementioned countries, utterly, for the betterment of the world.

Compare that to Cerberus.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 28 mars 2010 - 07:12 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I'm not seeing it.

[DPSSOC]

Internet Kraken wrote...

You know what? If someone tried to defend these Cerberus experiments prior to Mass Effect 2, everyone would call them crazy.

Funny cause I did and I was, didn't bother me though as I fully admit being textbook, rubber room, straight jacket wearing insane.

I don't claim to be cleverer than anyone but here's what I saw from Cerberus in ME1. (bold for important info)

We learn from Kahoku that Cerberus is a former Alliance black ops organization that is working on developing a super soldier.

Now from this we can deduce a few things.  First Cerberus is not developing these super soldiers for their own use.  We can imply this because, as Kahoku tells us, they're black ops...black ops don't need super soldiers.  If Cerberus was intent on overthrowing the Alliance government or any other grab for power they have far more effective tools available to them (assassination and infiltration).  This raises the question of who they're developing the super soldiers for.

Well they're former Alliance and seeing as no other organization we're aware of would have use for a human super soldier that would seem to make the Alliance our most likely candidate.  Cerberus being a former Alliance operation would know that one of humanity's greatest weaknesses against the other races is numbers, lowest % of population serving in military, so it makes sense that they'd want to develope a way to make each soldier we do have count.

Now some might say that Cerberus went rogue so they can't possibly be developing super soldiers for the Alliance.  While this is definitely a possibility we can't know for certain unless we know why Cerberus went rogue; whether it was an active decision to defect or the Alliance decided to shut them down and they simply refused to comply.  If the former than most likely they weren't developing super soldiers for the Alliance and I'm at a loss to explain why, but if the latter they may have a, they need us and whether they like it or not we're going to keep looking out for them, mentality.  From here on out I will be assuming the latter condition for going rogue.

Now on to Akuze, the Husk, Rachni and Thorian Creeper experiments.  All of these were instances where Cerberus set these threats loose on people.  Now while terrible it is an effective way of studying your enemy.  By unleashing these creatures loose in controlled situations Cerberus was able to observe their behaviour and tactics in an effort to develope defenses and strategies against them.  Even their treatment of Toombs can be viewed as studying the effects of Thresher acid on human tissue in order to develope treatment and defense (similar to anti-venom development).

The only action they take it ME1 that has no potential to benefit humanity is the incident with Kahoku and his men and that was in order to maintain their secrecy which is the only thing that allows them to continue operating on our behalf.

[Booglarize]

 It seems that a few people here are arguing that being well-intentioned somehow exempts an organization from being termed 'evil' (I don't believe that Cerberus are well-intentioned either, but let's grant it for the sake of argument). I don't buy that. As far as I'm concerned, what makes you good or evil doesn't depend on how much good or evil you think you're doing (because invariably, everyone will believe they're working for some greater good), but rather, how much of what isn't yours you're willing to sacrifice to achieve it.

[Bigdoser]

TIM cannot be trusted someone with a voice that awesome will backstab you.

[Zulu_DFA]

DPSSOC wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

You know what? If someone tried to defend these Cerberus experiments prior to Mass Effect 2, everyone would call them crazy.

Funny cause I did and I was, didn't bother me though as I fully admit being textbook, rubber room, straight jacket wearing insane.

I don't claim to be cleverer than anyone but here's what I saw from Cerberus in ME1. (bold for important info)

We learn from Kahoku that Cerberus is a former Alliance black ops organization that is working on developing a super soldier.

Now from this we can deduce a few things.  First Cerberus is not developing these super soldiers for their own use.  We can imply this because, as Kahoku tells us, they're black ops...black ops don't need super soldiers.  If Cerberus was intent on overthrowing the Alliance government or any other grab for power they have far more effective tools available to them (assassination and infiltration).  This raises the question of who they're developing the super soldiers for.

Well they're former Alliance and seeing as no other organization we're aware of would have use for a human super soldier that would seem to make the Alliance our most likely candidate.  Cerberus being a former Alliance operation would know that one of humanity's greatest weaknesses against the other races is numbers, lowest % of population serving in military, so it makes sense that they'd want to develope a way to make each soldier we do have count.

Now some might say that Cerberus went rogue so they can't possibly be developing super soldiers for the Alliance.  While this is definitely a possibility we can't know for certain unless we know why Cerberus went rogue; whether it was an active decision to defect or the Alliance decided to shut them down and they simply refused to comply.  If the former than most likely they weren't developing super soldiers for the Alliance and I'm at a loss to explain why, but if the latter they may have a, they need us and whether they like it or not we're going to keep looking out for them, mentality.  From here on out I will be assuming the latter condition for going rogue.

Now on to Akuze, the Husk, Rachni and Thorian Creeper experiments.  All of these were instances where Cerberus set these threats loose on people.  Now while terrible it is an effective way of studying your enemy.  By unleashing these creatures loose in controlled situations Cerberus was able to observe their behaviour and tactics in an effort to develope defenses and strategies against them.  Even their treatment of Toombs can be viewed as studying the effects of Thresher acid on human tissue in order to develope treatment and defense (similar to anti-venom development).

The only action they take it ME1 that has no potential to benefit humanity is the incident with Kahoku and his men and that was in order to maintain their secrecy which is the only thing that allows them to continue operating on our behalf.

I just second this.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bigdoser wrote...

TIM cannot be trusted someone with a voice that awesome will backstab you.

Yay! And all humans are blight on the galaxy, and all humans are racist!!!

[Onyx Jaguar]

"Kahoku was wrapped too tight for Cerberus, probably wrapped too tight for the Alliance"

[TuringPoint]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You know what other organization is well intentioned? Al Qaeda. They believe in the betterment of the world through Jihad with America and Israel. They also believe the the destruction of the two aforementioned countries, utterly, for the betterment of the world.

Compare that to Cerberus.

Compared to Cerberus?

Cerberus doesn't want a Jihad or anything like that.  The original meaning of Jihad, looong before Al Qaeda existed, was a defensive war, but now it's another name for acts of hatred.  Cerberus is irresponsible, but not really a hate group at all.  They are also very aggressive at trying for the survival of humanity, "defense" of humanity if you will, but not Jihadi.

So yeah, I don't see it either.  I hope I haven't misunderstood your sentiment.

[TuringPoint]

Did Cerberus get its super soldier? Wouldn't it be possible to test acid on human blood or body matter without torturing someone with it? Two years later they can rebuild a human being, why can't they create artificial veins and arteries and test out the acid? At least inject some sort of countermeasure to the acid.

Again, "paved with good intentions." I won't argue about their intentions being good or bad, but they are very misguided and prone to not really thinking out experiments in order to push them forward more quickly than is safe, reasonable, or practical.  

You don't have to set your mom on fire to see if her dress is actually flame retardant, and to what extent.  For one thing, she hasn't agreed to your little test, and for another thing causing her grievous or even fatal injury just to see what happens will just be stupid.  Your mom might love you enough to forgive you, but to be extremely pissed off.  Is your response to that to hide from your actions and keep being an idiot, with your other relatives?  To "go rogue" and hide behind the scenes, manipulating events and putting your family in danger for their own good?  Or is the logical response to back the **** off and think for once?

Some of you want to argue that Kahoku was just wound up too tight.  You know what?  I'd like to trust someone with my life who is actually looking out for my life rather than someone who expects me to die because it might be interesting.  Dying in a war so that others don't have to is one thing, involuntarily being slaughtered or tortured is another.

That aside, Cerberus brought it on themselves when they lured in Kahoku's men.  If they knew, and the Alliance knew, his basic personality was very concerned beyond "necessity," as they might call it, they might have decided to wait for another admirals' men to set the thresher maw trap up, if they truly wanted to maintain secrecy.

Is that Kahoku's stupidity, or the stupidity and fault of Cerberus?

Now either the Alliance or the Shadow Broker has information about them.  Real smart of Cerberus, from beginning to end, isn't it?

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 mars 2010 - 08:16 .

[Ray Joel Oh]

Shandepared wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

You know what? If someone tried to defend these Cerberus experiments prior to Mass Effect 2, everyone would call them crazy. Yet now some people actually believe that Cerberus's actions are justified.

Nobody knew who Cerberus was back then. 

Yeah we did.  They were in a bunch of side missions where you had to clean up their messes.

[TuringPoint]

We do have more information. But not much. Mostly we just know how "well-intentioned" they are now, and I've yet to see an argument to defend them pre ME2 that doesn't rely on their supposed good intentions.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 mars 2010 - 08:26 .

[Ray Joel Oh]

I don't know of any organization outside of Captain Planet episodes that weren't well-intentioned

[Notho]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

I sincerely hope that ME3 has a "Kill Cerberus With Fire" option.

I second this.

Me too. And I only worked with Cerberus to find out what was happening to the colonists.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Shandepared wrote...

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

Yeah we did.  They were in a bunch of side missions where you had to clean up their messes.

Riiiight, but we didn't know really who they were or if they stood for anything. Before Ascension came out I assumed they'd just gone completely private. Like say, Blackwater. Thus their experiments could easily have been done for the benefit of human enemies so long as they were being paid enough. After all, Cerberus had some strong connections to Noveria to get their own rachni samples.

My opinion of them didn't start to change until I read Ascension.

Who cares what they "stand for."  What they do is what matters.

[TuringPoint]

Anyway, I don't believe working for domination for an individual, racial group, or species of alien will ever turn out well for anyone. History proves that. You can force the issue all you want, anyone with the sense to think for themselves knows that sort of greed doesn't lead to any sort of paradise.



Working for yourself is good. Everyone should work for themselves, whether individual, or species, but to separate yourself from others - or from the rest of the galaxy, or from common sense or reality, in any case - leads to stagnation and probably death, until people come to a point where they realize they aren't going anywhere.



You can't just expect to sit on your laurels after dominating everything. You will never dominate everything, and half the time if you expect to have absolute control of everything on your terms you will just fail, or cause yourself as much harm as good.

[TuringPoint]

Shandepared wrote...

Before Ascension came out I assumed they'd just gone completely private. Like say, Blackwater. 

And I suppose you think Blackwater was a good thing?  That is very telling.

[Bigdoser]

Alocormin wrote...

Anyway, I don't believe working for domination for an individual, racial group, or species of alien will ever turn out well for anyone. History proves that. You can force the issue all you want, anyone with the sense to think for themselves knows that sort of greed doesn't lead to any sort of paradise.

Working for yourself is good. Everyone should work for themselves, whether individual, or species, but to separate yourself from others - or from the rest of the galaxy, or from common sense or reality, in any case - leads to stagnation and probably death, until people come to a point where they realize they aren't going anywhere.

You can't just expect to sit on your laurels after dominating everything. You will never dominate everything, and half the time if you expect to have absolute control of everything on your terms you will just fail, or cause yourself as much harm as good.

Awesome post. my thoughts exactly.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Alocormin wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Before Ascension came out I assumed they'd just gone completely private. Like say, Blackwater. 

And I suppose you think Blackwater was a good thing?  That is very telling.

mte

[TuringPoint]

Bigdoser wrote...

Alocormin wrote...
You can't just expect to sit on your laurels after dominating everything. You will never dominate everything, and half the time if you expect to have absolute control of everything on your terms you will just fail, or cause yourself as much harm as good.

Awesome post. my thoughts exactly.

Additionally, corrupting your morals now, going forward, will succeed in little more than corrupting your morals in the long run.  It just becomes harder and harder to correct yourself or your actions.  Who needs that?