701 réponses à ce sujet

[hex23]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, no other organization in the Galaxy managed to mount a mission to the galactic core, and take out the entire race of the Collectors.

Cerberus didn't do that, Shepard did. Despite the fact that you have to go to the galactic core and wipe out a technologically advanced race, they don't give you anything other than a new Normandy and weapons. That would be like America giving you a Ferrari and a rocket lanucher and telling you "go declare war on Japan".

Hell, you gotta mine your own minerals and buy your own fuel and probes. Plus track down your team mates, and personally deal with their problems. AND upgrade the ship they gave you, because as is it's obviously not good enough for the task they gave you.

And we're supposed to say Cerberus as an organization accomplished the defeat of the Collectors? Seriously?

And ironically by the end of the game it's possible to steal the ship, blow the base, say "screw Cerberus", turn two of their best operatives and the entire staff of the Normandy. So what did they give you exactly, that you couldn't have taken anyway?

They did resurrect you. Then again somebody had to do it for the sake of the story, so that's really not worth counting. The alternative is nobody resurrects you then the game doesn't exist.

Modifié par hex23, 28 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[hex23]

Shandepared wrote...

Or influencing the production of the most  advanced warship in the galaxy and then producing their own upgraded copy of it.

Which means nothing considering you have to upgrade the ship to even accomplish the task they give you.

"Here's a new ship, nevermind the fact that it'll get destroyed like the first one unless you retool several aspects of it, just go save the galaxy!".

Gee, thanks TIM. You're the man.

Modifié par hex23, 28 mars 2010 - 11:08 .

[Zulu_DFA]

hex23 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, no other organization in the Galaxy managed to mount a mission to the galactic core, and take out the entire race of the Collectors.

Cerberus didn't do that, Shepard did.

Even if the Cerberus' input into that was limited to project Lazarus, that'd make them the creators of the Collector base victory, because Shepars is their creation. From meat and tubes.

But the fact is, Shepard (as always) was just the executiooner of their plans. Cerberus found the derelict Reaper. Cerberus's intelligence network lead to the Horizon engagement and the subsequent Collector ship engagement. TIM provided you with most of the dossies of you kewl badass squaddies... And they got Joker to goof around.

Now call it a lame plot device on BioWare's part to bleach out Cerberus, but face it. Now it's a fact, and canon, and it in no way contradicts the ME1 canon, unlike the thermal ammo mechanic.

[GothamLord]

hex23 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Or influencing the production of the most  advanced warship in the galaxy and then producing their own upgraded copy of it.

Which means nothing considering you have to upgrade the ship to even accomplish the task they give you.

"Here's a new ship, nevermind the fact that it'll get destroyed like the first one unless you retool several aspects of it, just go save the galaxy!".

Gee, thanks TIM. You're the man.

Um. You CAN accomplish the task with the ship that Cerberus gave you. People just die. Upgrading the ships just reduces the body count.

[DPSSOC]

hex23 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, no other organization in the Galaxy managed to mount a mission to the galactic core, and take out the entire race of the Collectors.

Cerberus didn't do that, Shepard did.

Technically true but let's look at Cerberus' contributions without which the mission most likely wouldn't have succeeded.

1) Shepard (it's all downhill from here)
2) Normandy 2.0
3) Your team (you had to find them but they told you who to find if you wanted anything better than a snowball's chance in hell
4)Located the derelict Reaper without which you've got no IFF and the Omega 4 relay is just a badass lawn ornament in space (So a space ornament I suppose).
5) EDI without which you wouldn't have been able to hack the Collector database or operate the ship after the crew is taken
6) Your crew (2 people and a shackled AI cannot keep a frigate running)
7) Kelly who offered Shepard hours of off screen therapy he/she desperately needs
8) and Miranda without whom there is no Shepard which really takes us back to #1

They didn't do it single handed but Cerberus' contributions to the effort are pretty important.

[Zulu_DFA]

DPSSOC wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, no other organization in the Galaxy managed to mount a mission to the galactic core, and take out the entire race of the Collectors.

Cerberus didn't do that, Shepard did.

Technically true but let's look at Cerberus' contributions without which the mission most likely wouldn't have succeeded.

1) Shepard (it's all downhill from here)
2) Normandy 2.0
3) Your team (you had to find them but they told you who to find if you wanted anything better than a snowball's chance in hell
4)Located the derelict Reaper without which you've got no IFF and the Omega 4 relay is just a badass lawn ornament in space (So a space ornament I suppose).
5) EDI without which you wouldn't have been able to hack the Collector database or operate the ship after the crew is taken
6) Your crew (2 people and a shackled AI cannot keep a frigate running)
7) Kelly who offered Shepard hours of off screen therapy he/she desperately needs
8) and Miranda without whom there is no Shepard which really takes us back to #1

They didn't do it single handed but Cerberus' contributions to the effort are pretty important.

And what was the Shepard's part?

Mostly he was just shooting things.

[FlyinElk212]

I wish there was an dialogue wheel option to punch Kelly right in the face any time you wanted.

"How may I help you, Commander?"

...............*BAM!*

[ObserverStatus]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

I wish there was an dialogue wheel option to punch Kelly right in the face any time you wanted.
"How may I help you, Commander?"
...............*BAM!*

[Spartas Husky]

jlb524 wrote...



Even if everyone else can be considered a terrorist, this doesn't excuse Cerberus' actions.

Completely agree with you. Everyone has a checkered past, and like somebody said before, it takes white and black spots to have that kind of past.

What do you think, we did to native indians?

what do you think, the Gauls did to the germans?

what do you think, salarians did to krogans?

Asari to krogans in the krogan rebellions.

Just like nobody can be excused for the attrocities they commit, nobody is in the right to judge anyone else either.

Everyone is a criminal in one way or another.

Like somebody mentioned, Cerberus does things fast and simple. Some decide to take the hard road.

It depends on the circumstance.

For example there are two sides to every topic.

Mordin? he is responsable for the death of millions, yet he choose the hard road. Not performing experiments on test subjects.

But that is only because they had the time and resources to not test on life subjects. I doubt the STG had the same ethics as Mordin during the Krogan rebellions. Most likely they needed the weapon now, and using life subjects sped up the process.

That is all this is about, you kill 1 bad guy using a missile or a bullet?

Some think, a missile is a way to save thousands of good soldier at the expense of a couple hundred civilians

 Others think, a thousand soldiers is worth saving a couple hundred civilians.

All depends in numbers of casualties and your time frame.

[knightnblu]

Yeah, for someone so touchy feely the whole "ends justify the means" thing is a little surprising. Oddly enough, it is also something heard in RL as well.

[TuringPoint]

knightnblu wrote...

Yeah, for someone so touchy feely the whole "ends justify the means" thing is a little surprising. Oddly enough, it is also something heard in RL as well.

I'm sure you're not full of bull**** sentiment, yourself.  Oh no... it's just everyone else.

[shnizzler93]

Spartas Husky wrote...

jlb524 wrote...



Even if everyone else can be considered a terrorist, this doesn't excuse Cerberus' actions.

Completely agree with you. Everyone has a checkered past, and like somebody said before, it takes white and black spots to have that kind of past.

What do you think, we did to native indians?

what do you think, the Gauls did to the germans?

what do you think, salarians did to krogans?

Asari to krogans in the krogan rebellions.

Just like nobody can be excused for the attrocities they commit, nobody is in the right to judge anyone else either.

Everyone is a criminal in one way or another.

Like somebody mentioned, Cerberus does things fast and simple. Some decide to take the hard road.

It depends on the circumstance.

For example there are two sides to every topic.

Mordin? he is responsable for the death of millions, yet he choose the hard road. Not performing experiments on test subjects.

But that is only because they had the time and resources to not test on life subjects. I doubt the STG had the same ethics as Mordin during the Krogan rebellions. Most likely they needed the weapon now, and using life subjects sped up the process.

That is all this is about, you kill 1 bad guy using a missile or a bullet?

Some think, a missile is a way to save thousands of good soldier at the expense of a couple hundred civilians

 Others think, a thousand soldiers is worth saving a couple hundred civilians.

All depends in numbers of casualties and your time frame.

QFT

[Andorfiend]

DPSSOC wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

You know what? If someone tried to defend these Cerberus experiments prior to Mass Effect 2, everyone would call them crazy.

Funny cause I did and I was, didn't bother me though as I fully admit being textbook, rubber room, straight jacket wearing insane.

No arguement from me on this, but I'll address your other points seperately.

DPSSOC wrote...
I don't claim to be cleverer than anyone but here's what I saw from Cerberus in ME1. (bold for important info)

We learn from Kahoku that Cerberus is a former Alliance black ops organization that is working on developing a super soldier.

Now from this we can deduce a few things.  First Cerberus is not developing these super soldiers for their own use.  We can imply this because, as Kahoku tells us, they're black ops...black ops don't need super soldiers.  If Cerberus was intent on overthrowing the Alliance government or any other grab for power they have far more effective tools available to them (assassination and infiltration).  This raises the question of who they're developing the super soldiers for.

Exactly backwards. Black ops are the ones who need super soldier the most. Black ops are the Rangers, the Seals, the Spectres. They go in behind the lines, in small numbers against great odds and are expected to accomplish the impossible, ideally without being seen. The ideal black ops guy has super strength to carry more gear and for close combat. He has inhuman endurance. Reflexes and hand-eye coordination give him and edge in a fire fight. Senses allow him to see and avoid the enemy before he is perceived. This is the job for which you need Dolph Lundgren, not Don Knotts.

DPSSOC wrote...
Well they're former Alliance and seeing as no other organization we're aware of would have use for a human super soldier that would seem to make the Alliance our most likely candidate.  Cerberus being a former Alliance operation would know that one of humanity's greatest weaknesses against the other races is numbers, lowest % of population serving in military, so it makes sense that they'd want to develope a way to make each soldier we do have count.

That's a strength, not a weakness. We're a well regarded military power even with a tiny military population. It causes other races to fear our potential. Trying to out breed other races to counter quantity with quantity is bound to be a losing proposition because the other races have populations of trillions to our billions, superior technology, and dozens or hundreds of developed world to our ONE developed planet and a few colonies. It is centuries to early for humanity to try out muscling any othe the other council races and if TIM had the brains God gave an oyster he'd know that.

DPSSOC wrote...
Now some might say that Cerberus went rogue so they can't possibly be developing super soldiers for the Alliance.  While this is definitely a possibility we can't know for certain unless we know why Cerberus went rogue; whether it was an active decision to defect or the Alliance decided to shut them down and they simply refused to comply.  If the former than most likely they weren't developing super soldiers for the Alliance and I'm at a loss to explain why, but if the latter they may have a, they need us and whether they like it or not we're going to keep looking out for them, mentality.  From here on out I will be assuming the latter condition for going rogue.

I agree that TIM think he is doing what is best for humanity whether humanity agrees or not. That in no way, shape ot form means that he is right however. TIM is unbelieveably self-destructive and seems to be trying his level best to bring us all down with him.

DPSSOC wrote...
Now on to Akuze, the Husk, Rachni and Thorian Creeper experiments.  All of these were instances where Cerberus set these threats loose on people.  Now while terrible it is an effective way of studying your enemy.  By unleashing these creatures loose in controlled situations Cerberus was able to observe their behaviour and tactics in an effort to develope defenses and strategies against them.  Even their treatment of Toombs can be viewed as studying the effects of Thresher acid on human tissue in order to develope treatment and defense (similar to anti-venom development).

That is a poor arguement and worse science. If you want to see a thresher maw attack jusr run a herd of freaking cattle over the nest. The cerberus experiments were not "controlled". In every single instance it backfired on them. It's not just that they are evil, they are incompetant evil.

DPSSOC wrote...
The only action they take it ME1 that has no potential to benefit humanity is the incident with Kahoku and his men and that was in order to maintain their secrecy which is the only thing that allows them to continue operating on our behalf.

Right. And two years later they are a well known and poorly thought of terrorist organization who has ships flying around with their freaking logo on the side. Glad to see they made the most of that secrecy. *headwall*

[Andorfiend]

shnizzler93 wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

jlb524 wrote...



Even if everyone else can be considered a terrorist, this doesn't excuse Cerberus' actions.

Completely agree with you. Everyone has a checkered past, and like somebody said before, it takes white and black spots to have that kind of past.

What do you think, we did to native indians?

what do you think, the Gauls did to the germans?

what do you think, salarians did to krogans?

Asari to krogans in the krogan rebellions.

Just like nobody can be excused for the attrocities they commit, nobody is in the right to judge anyone else either.

Everyone is a criminal in one way or another.

Like somebody mentioned, Cerberus does things fast and simple. Some decide to take the hard road.

It depends on the circumstance.

For example there are two sides to every topic.

Mordin? he is responsable for the death of millions, yet he choose the hard road. Not performing experiments on test subjects.

But that is only because they had the time and resources to not test on life subjects. I doubt the STG had the same ethics as Mordin during the Krogan rebellions. Most likely they needed the weapon now, and using life subjects sped up the process.

That is all this is about, you kill 1 bad guy using a missile or a bullet?

Some think, a missile is a way to save thousands of good soldier at the expense of a couple hundred civilians

 Others think, a thousand soldiers is worth saving a couple hundred civilians.

All depends in numbers of casualties and your time frame.

QFT

No, not true. TIMs way of doing things is not fast, or expedient, or subtle. He is a freaking James Bond villain. He doesn't need to spend billions of dollars of a bloody volcano lair when he could work just as well out of a rental office in Des Moines but he does it anyway.

Question: TIM how do you cross a busy street? Do you wait for the light or try to find an alternate path?
Answer: No. I set a nearby building on fire to draw a crowd. Then I butcher the crowd and build a foot bridge out of their bones and sinews. Then I will stand atop the footbridge and ****** onto the oncoming traffic. Only then will our enemies understand what it means to yield.  

He doesn't take the hard road. He doesn't do what must be done that no one is willing to face. He actively intereferes with the people who are supposed to be doing things and then blames them for not getting it done. He is a raging egomanic and needs to be shot like a rabid dog. Maybe he did bring back Shepard. Great. He did one thing right in his entire useless, misspent, destructive, hatefull life. Great. Now it's time to put a bullet in old yeller and bury him out back 'cause his time is done.

[Spartas Husky]

Funny.... do you believe all life is precious? I certainly believe so, but I also know less spent is more earned.

DO you think, maiming, butchering, or/and slowly killing dozens of millions of animals to save a hundred of thousand people from disease is worth it?

OR would you kill a couple hundred people in experiments that will yield the same result in lesser time.


Personally, I say prisons waste too much resources, and those sentence to capital punishment , life or more than 30 years, would provide much better, accurate and expedient results than animals.



But that is just me.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 29 mars 2010 - 05:09 .

[Kwom Masbag]

Andorfiend wrote...
No, not true. TIMs way of doing things is not fast, or expedient, or subtle. He is a freaking James Bond villain. He doesn't need to spend billions of dollars of a bloody volcano lair when he could work just as well out of a rental office in Des Moines but he does it anyway.

Question: TIM how do you cross a busy street? Do you wait for the light or try to find an alternate path?
Answer: No. I set a nearby building on fire to draw a crowd. Then I butcher the crowd and build a foot bridge out of their bones and sinews. Then I will stand atop the footbridge and ****** onto the oncoming traffic. Only then will our enemies understand what it means to yield.  

He doesn't take the hard road. He doesn't do what must be done that no one is willing to face. He actively intereferes with the people who are supposed to be doing things and then blames them for not getting it done. He is a raging egomanic and needs to be shot like a rabid dog. Maybe he did bring back Shepard. Great. He did one thing right in his entire useless, misspent, destructive, hatefull life. Great. Now it's time to put a bullet in old yeller and bury him out back 'cause his time is done.

You had me laughing, good sir/madam.  Thig is, I can actually hear TIM saying this, at least at the end when he's talking to Joker; he seemed a lot less..."courteous" than when he was talking to Shepard.  I guess it goes without saying that I agree with you.

[lastpawn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, no other organization in the Galaxy managed to mount a mission to the galactic core, and take out the entire race of the Collectors.

Cerberus didn't do that, Shepard did.

Even if the Cerberus' input into that was limited to project Lazarus, that'd make them the creators of the Collector base victory, because Shepars is their creation. From meat and tubes.

Then my Shepard will be sure to thank his mother (Captain Hannah, I believe) for being "the creator of the Collector base victory" since Shepard is, you know... her creation.

[Goodwood]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Funny.... do you believe all life is precious? I certainly believe so, but I also know less spent is more earned.

DO you think, maiming, butchering, or/and slowly killing dozens of millions of animals to save a hundred of thousand people from disease is worth it?

OR would you kill a couple hundred people in experiments that will yield the same result in lesser time.

Personally, I say prisons waste too much resources, and those sentence to capital punishment , life or more than 30 years, would provide much better, accurate and expedient results than animals.

But that is just me.

I can't tell if this argument is a red herring, a strawman, or both. As a counter, it certainly lacks for something, possibly an understanding of the point it is trying to counter.

[Spartas Husky]

Goodwood wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Funny.... do you believe all life is precious? I certainly believe so, but I also know less spent is more earned.

DO you think, maiming, butchering, or/and slowly killing dozens of millions of animals to save a hundred of thousand people from disease is worth it?

OR would you kill a couple hundred people in experiments that will yield the same result in lesser time.

Personally, I say prisons waste too much resources, and those sentence to capital punishment , life or more than 30 years, would provide much better, accurate and expedient results than animals.

But that is just me.

I can't tell if this argument is a red herring, a strawman, or both. As a counter, it certainly lacks for something, possibly an understanding of the point it is trying to counter.

There isn't something to counter, my whole point always has been that cerberus is like any other person, or group out there.

Mordin is no different than TIM., Shepherd was a spectre, and if you did the terra nova asteroid mission, same thing. Everyone is on the same boat.

For example. One guy kills animals just cuz, the other kills them cos he likes meat....point is, both kill animals when there is alot of other food out there.

I personally, dont eat most meat...but I can't resist not eating mighty goodness chicken meat. SO I can't go all of the sudden to a rally against... chicken hunters or something

If your a paragon and destroyed the base, you doomed more lives in the longrun as whether you had kept it.

If you gave it to cerberus, lives will still be lost, but most will be non human.

there is no good and evil, just the big picture.

[Goodwood]

When anybody says "there is no good and no evil..." in my experience it is always followed by some self-serving so-called "alternative." And you, sir, have not disappointed -- you now join the ranks of such exalted villains as Voldemort, who said "there is no good or evil, only power, and those too weak to seek it" and various Sith Lords who prattle on about power being the ultimate arbiter.



<insert facepalm image here>

[Sharn01]

I would be more inclined to debate the Cerberus groupies if they where actually aware of all the things Cerberus is responsible for and made their argument's logically.



Most of the people who defend Cerberus can not get their fact's straight, and use the "other's do it to" argument to defend them.



I prefer my friend's logic of "somtimes its fun to play evil" to attempting to find excuses for working for them and trying to make them seem not so bad.

[Zulu_DFA]

lastpawn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, no other organization in the Galaxy managed to mount a mission to the galactic core, and take out the entire race of the Collectors.

Cerberus didn't do that, Shepard did.

Even if the Cerberus' input into that was limited to project Lazarus, that'd make them the creators of the Collector base victory, because Shepars is their creation. From meat and tubes.

Then my Shepard will be sure to thank his mother (Captain Hannah, I believe) for being "the creator of the Collector base victory" since Shepard is, you know... her creation.

No. The Hero of the Citadel Shepard was a creation of Admiral Hacket, Captain Anderson and, most of all Ambassador Udina who made "the call". Oh, and in part of Gunnery Chief Ellison.

[lastpawn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

lastpawn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, no other organization in the Galaxy managed to mount a mission to the galactic core, and take out the entire race of the Collectors.

Cerberus didn't do that, Shepard did.

Even if the Cerberus' input into that was limited to project Lazarus, that'd make them the creators of the Collector base victory, because Shepars is their creation. From meat and tubes.

Then my Shepard will be sure to thank his mother (Captain Hannah, I believe) for being "the creator of the Collector base victory" since Shepard is, you know... her creation.

No. The Hero of the Citadel Shepard was a creation of Admiral Hacket, Captain Anderson and, most of all Ambassador Udina who made "the call". Oh, and in part of Gunnery Chief Ellison.

But his mother had nothing to do with it? Are you sure? Because it seems like she did. About 29-30 years before the events of ME1, I'd guess.

[Xaijin]

If your a paragon and destroyed the base, you doomed more lives in the longrun as whether you had kept it.

Post proof or retract.

[screwoffreg]

lol Cerberus is no worse than any of the other special intelligence groups in the Galaxy. Just look at the STG who engineered the Genophage. That alone makes Cerberus saints in comparison.

In all of my most Paragon of Paragon playthroughs I could NEVER justify destroying the Base.  All the reasons seemed so trite.

OH NO THE SOUL OF OUR PEOPLE!!! What does that even mean?

Modifié par screwoffreg, 29 mars 2010 - 07:52 .