701 réponses à ce sujet

[Spartas Husky]

Arijharn wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Well we are already in a small scale, but I rather we dont grow beyond small scale, deforastation, genocide, and so forth. Is bad enough as it is.

Um I wouldn't really call 'genocide' to be 'small scale.'

make up your damn mind, you want genocide on a planetary scale, or ona  galactic scale....seriously you can't have both lol:blink:

[Arijharn]

either scale is large really. For those who aren't aware; genocide means the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.



The Holocaust was genocide.

Reapers exterminating humanity (to grow their own Reaper) was genocide.

[Asheer_Khan]

Now i see that Saren was dead right in his assertion of the humanity...

We are not ready (and i doubt we ever will) to become a part of the greater galactic community... and to end my "contribution" in this subject i want to congratulate Bioware for waking up all zombies of **** ideology which should be burried in ashes of the history.

[Spartas Husky]

Arijharn wrote...

either scale is large really. For those who aren't aware; genocide means the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

The Holocaust was genocide.
Reapers exterminating humanity (to grow their own Reaper) was genocide.

we are talking bout the base.

If you destroy the base, the reapers will commit genocide on a planetary scale...well many planets, but still we win.

If you save it, humanity will end up commiting galatic wide genocide to mainta our new sexy god like reaper forms.

That is the choice I was speaking about.

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Now i see that Saren was dead right
in his assertion of the humanity...
We are not ready (and i doubt we
ever will) to become a part of the greater galactic community... and to
end my "contribution" in this subject i want to congratulate Bioware for
waking up all zombies of **** ideology which should be burried in ashes
of the history.

Can I be buried with a copy of mass effect 2.... just for the hell of it lol

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 29 mars 2010 - 09:35 .

[Xaijin]

Shandepared wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. See I can do that too.

...but can you provide a rational argument for destroying the Collector base? Answer: no, you can't. Face it, destroying the Collector base is shooting yourself in the foot. The only reason you know it won't come back to bite you in the rear end is because you know this is fiction and in fiction being a good person is all that is required to win.

Um, yes. Reaper technology is buit with failsafes that provide distinct Reaper advantage, ala Mass Relays.


The US had several awesome German WWII Jet designs and failed to use or take anything from them but the engines and happened to come upon what the Germans were getting 45 years later but they did it tthemselves and better, nonetheless.

So much for metagaming.

Modifié par Xaijin, 29 mars 2010 - 09:44 .

[Arijharn]

Spartas Husky wrote...

we are talking bout the base.

If you destroy the base, the reapers will commit genocide on a planetary scale...well many planets, but still we win.

If you save it, humanity will end up commiting galatic wide genocide to mainta our new sexy god like reaper forms.

That is the choice I was speaking about.

I dunno if people are being serious when they state that ownership of the Collector base automatically predisposes TiM to start making human reaper forms...

I would imagine there are heaps of examples of weaponry/systems in that base that may allow us to gain an edge over the Reapers... all without the need for rendering someone down to paste in order to do it. 

Xaijin wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. See I can do that too.

...but can you provide a rational argument for destroying the Collector base? Answer: no, you can't. Face it, destroying the Collector base is shooting yourself in the foot. The only reason you know it won't come back to bite you in the rear end is because you know this is fiction and in fiction being a good person is all that is required to win.

Um, yes. Reaper technology is buit with failsafes that provide distinct Reaper advantage, ala Mass Relays.


The US had several awesome German WWII Jet designs and failed to use or take anything from them but the engines and happened to come upon what the Germans were getting 45 years later but they did it tthemselves and better, nonetheless.

So much for metagaming.

This isn't a correct analogy as far as I'm aware, mainly because the Reapers purposely left the Mass Relay's to be discovered and used, whereas the Collector base is located in an area far removed from the core of where the galactic civilisation would be, clearly designed in an impossible/hard to reach area. It's located in an extremely hostile environment. 

Modifié par Arijharn, 29 mars 2010 - 09:48 .

[Spartas Husky]

Arijharn wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

we are talking bout the base.

If you destroy the base, the reapers will commit genocide on a planetary scale...well many planets, but still we win.

If you save it, humanity will end up commiting galatic wide genocide to mainta our new sexy god like reaper forms.

That is the choice I was speaking about.

I dunno if people are being serious when they state that ownership of the Collector base automatically predisposes TiM to start making human reaper forms...

I would imagine there are heaps of examples of weaponry/systems in that base that may allow us to gain an edge over the Reapers... all without the need for rendering someone down to paste in order to do it. 

True... but really.... humanity's ace in the whole..... collector base + TIm....= untold atrocities.

Well as a paragon the job of shepherd is to protect ALL life.

Tim is to preserve human life at the expense of all other.

there is the disagreement,

[Arijharn]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

we are talking bout the base.

If you destroy the base, the reapers will commit genocide on a planetary scale...well many planets, but still we win.

If you save it, humanity will end up commiting galatic wide genocide to mainta our new sexy god like reaper forms.

That is the choice I was speaking about.

I dunno if people are being serious when they state that ownership of the Collector base automatically predisposes TiM to start making human reaper forms...

I would imagine there are heaps of examples of weaponry/systems in that base that may allow us to gain an edge over the Reapers... all without the need for rendering someone down to paste in order to do it. 

True... but really.... humanity's ace in the whole..... collector base + TIm....= untold atrocities.

Well as a paragon the job of shepherd is to protect ALL life.

Tim is to preserve human life at the expense of all other.

there is the disagreement,

Of course, but that's meta-game knowledge you're exercising here, not Shephard on the ground I would imagine.

Modifié par Arijharn, 29 mars 2010 - 09:54 .

[Xaijin]

Nope. They didn't even try, and the people who worked on the project THEN attested so in written affidavits, all they took and considered was engine principles, ignoring potential radar profile and aerodynamic principles in addition to control interface options, as the National Geographic special showed in blatant, non-subjective detail.

WWII is rather similar, as Reapers use co-opted maligned ideals and transmogrified tech to justify their genocidal ideology. Rather similar to others, if you bother to do the research.

PS: Husky, still waiting on that dev diary or a retraction.

Modifié par Xaijin, 29 mars 2010 - 09:55 .

[Spartas Husky]

Arijharn wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

we are talking bout the base.

If you destroy the base, the reapers will commit genocide on a planetary scale...well many planets, but still we win.

If you save it, humanity will end up commiting galatic wide genocide to mainta our new sexy god like reaper forms.

That is the choice I was speaking about.

I dunno if people are being serious when they state that ownership of the Collector base automatically predisposes TiM to start making human reaper forms...

I would imagine there are heaps of examples of weaponry/systems in that base that may allow us to gain an edge over the Reapers... all without the need for rendering someone down to paste in order to do it. 

True... but really.... humanity's ace in the whole..... collector base + TIm....= untold atrocities.

Well as a paragon the job of shepherd is to protect ALL life.

Tim is to preserve human life at the expense of all other.

there is the disagreement,

Of course, but that's meta-game knowledge you're exercising here, not Shephard on the ground I would imagine.

Dude, when your on the ground a thousands things race through your head. 2 things that flow more than any others.

1st how can I get out in one piece.
2nd How will this impact the bigger picture.

Is always in mind for a soldier man always. Even on simulations

[Goodwood]

Shandepared wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

The US had several awesome German WWII Jet designs and failed to use or take anything from them but the engines and happened to come upon what the Germans were getting 45 years later but they did it tthemselves and better, nonetheless.

...but they tried, they didn't just shy away from German technology out of fear. Also WWII is no way similar to the war humanity faces in Mass Effect.

To build on that analogy, we tested the sh*t out of captured German and Japanese designs, even as the war was being fought (in '42 we captured an almost completely intact Zeke that had crashed in the Aleutian Islands -- this led directly to the development of the F6F Hellcat). The post-war bounties of captured equipment and personnel provided reams of insight into how the German and Japanese military-industrial complex worked, and hinted at the possibilities that their designs could have achieved given time and resources. However, aside from working models of jet engines that were of questionable
reliability at best, most of the advanced stuff was limited to theoreticals and blueprints, and the working prototypes weren't really that much more advanced than what the U.S. and Britain were working on at the time (it was a Brit, Frank Whittle, who invented the jet turbine, back in '27). The one truly revolutionary idea that we got from the Germans was the idea of the swept-wing airfoil and its effects on high-speed airframes.

In the Mass Effect universe, humans got their leg-up on Prothean technology, which we learn was based on Reaper technology, as was that of every species that came before. But the Protheans had their own take on mass effect fields and the use of element zero; humanity took that angle and went their own way, eventually co-operating with the turians to develop something that might never have existed before, which resulted in the Normandy. For this analogy to post-WWII research to fit, it would have been like the U.S. learning from the British after the British had learned from the Germans, which was not the case.

We also know that Reaper technology has failsafes, in-built by the Reapers themselves: indoctrination. With the exception of the dissection of Sovereign's corpse, every in-universe case of anyone attempting to work with Reaper technology has resulted in mass huskification and disaster. Since the Collectors are just as much Reaper agents as Saren ever was, and given that the Reapers had in fact made the Collectors thus, it stands to reason -- even to a senile hanar -- that the base was just swimming in Indoctrination juice. We've seen firsthand what Indoctrination does; leaving the base intact -- or worse, giving it to Cerberus -- is tantamount to giving it back to the Reapers, so that they can use it as a staging area for an underground "softening up" campaign to prepare the galaxy for their impending attack.

Not unlike what the Yuuzhan Vong did to the Star Wars galaxy.

[lastpawn]

There's a big TIM-love parade and I have to admit I'm a bit sad I'm not a part of it. Because I do love the look, the clothes, the voice... the eyes, obviously. But let's be honest. TIM's number one defender is Miranda the "I'm a good judge of character and I can tell TIM is a good person." Who later becomes Miranda the "I'm not a good judge of character... and TIM might not be a good person." I'm fully expecting to find that there is much more to TIM than meets the eye.



All that said, what happened to my "I'll save the base but NOT allow TIM to take it over" option?

[Spartas Husky]

[quote]Goodwood wrote...

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Xaijin wrote...
r -- that the base was just swimming in Indoctrination juice.
[/quote]

hahahaha, that is my favorite part. Well said,


[quote]lastpawn wrote...


All that said, what happened to my "I'll
save the base but NOT allow TIM to take it over" option?[/quote]


I ask myself the same thing....

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 29 mars 2010 - 10:10 .

[Xaijin]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
WWII is rather similar, as Reapers use co-opted maligned ideals and transmogrified tech to justify their genocidal ideology. Rather similar to others, if you bother to do the research.

Are the Reapers using this to justify their ideology or is it a matter of their survival?

To the ardent Anti-Semites of the german 20s and 30s there was very little difference; which is pretty hilarious because actual "Aryans" are in fact, Gypsies. Several of the popular serial publications had repeated mantras, one of which was "for the survival of our people".

If it wasn't  a Reaper Mantra yet, it soon will be, cause i don't think "hey, wait guys this is all a HUGE mistake" is going to work anymore. The Reapers have cast their die.

Modifié par Xaijin, 29 mars 2010 - 10:15 .

[Goodwood]

Spartas Husky, if I may ask, what is your occupation within the military?

[Arijharn]

Spartas Husky wrote...
Dude, when your on the ground a thousands things race through your head. 2 things that flow more than any others.

1st how can I get out in one piece.
2nd How will this impact the bigger picture.

Is always in mind for a soldier man always. Even on simulations

I wouldn't deny it; but I think you're missing my point. You don't think along the lines of whether you're Paragon John Doe or Renegade John Doe. I mean, you aren't thinking along the lines of 'if I fire this bullet, what are my chances of missing the target and having the bullet, when overcome by gravity and air resistance hitting Jim the Chieftan destabilising the western flank in a succession crisis' are surely.
You're motivated primarily by your first point: 'how can I get out in one piece.' Sure, you don't want to destabilise the western flank, but the thought isn't even crossing your mind.

This is what I'm getting at. You're in a secret war with genocidal alien machines, you want as much advantage as you can possibly get against them, because you don't know whether they'll arrive in the next 15 minutes, 15 months, 15 years or whatever. If you save the Collector base then you at least have a springboard to which to start off your technological base, without resorting to so much trial and error. You want designs on the drawing board asap.

Could it be mis-used? Of course! However, I find it unlikely that Cerberus in this case would so openly deploy the weaponry in a show of human military strength if Cerberus fears that the Reaper intelligence network is remotely as strong as they think. I would wager that they'd want to keep the tech as close to their chest as possible, perhaps only deploying the 'least' of the technology into mass market to ease familiarity of the weapon systems to the masses, also to 'shock and awe' the Reapers when they do arrive. This is assuming of course that the Reapers respond to psychology impulses at some level (otherwise, what is the entire point of hunting Shephard and his former crew down?)

[Spartas Husky]

Currently, my occupation is sitting at home, with a cast over my knee. But technilically is 15b I oversee aircraft turbines, make sure they are fit and pretty.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 29 mars 2010 - 10:19 .

[Goodwood]

Xaijin wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
WWII is rather similar, as Reapers use co-opted maligned ideals and transmogrified tech to justify their genocidal ideology. Rather similar to others, if you bother to do the research.

Are the Reapers using this to justify their ideology or is it a matter of their survival?

To the ardent Anti-Semites of the german 20s and 30s there was very little difference; whihc is pretty hilarious because actual "Aryans" are in fact, Gypsies. Several of the popular serial publications had repeated mantras, one of which was "for the survival of our people".

If it wasn't  a Reaper Mantra yet, it soon will b, cause i don't think "hey, wait guys this is all a HUGE mistake" is going to work anymore. The Reapers have cast their die.

To be honest, with the exception of their intent to kill loads of people, I don't see how the Reapers are in any way similar to the ideology of Hitler's Germany. The Reapers have been doing this stuff for millions of years -- perhaps a billion years or more -- and seem perfectly fine with it. That is, they don't have to justify to themselves what they do; they are sufficiently alien as to defy any attempts to understand their thinking, even if we can guess at how their consciousness works (Legion's assertion of "one will, many minds"). For all we know, the Reapers might have started out as biosynthetic warships utilized by an ancient spacefaring species, and something really bad happened that FUBAR-ed their programming. To impart human values and thought processes onto such vast constructs is, I think, dangerous, as it lends itself to underestimating their capabilities.

[Spartas Husky]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
That is a good point.  I never considered it swimming in indroctination juice as you call it before.  So in a meta game or non meta game perspective, it sounds like a bad idea all around to keep the base.

bow chikawoawoa bow chikawoawoa lol:police:

[Arijharn]

I originally dismissed the collector base because of fears of indoctrination, but then I thought a bit more about it and here's what I came up with:

1) The Collector's are basically dead-end Protheans. I think Mordin stated when he talks about their dead culture that they aren't susceptible to 'Indoctrination' anymore, much like how the Keepers no longer respond to Reaper commands, just the Citadel's.

2) The Collector base is located in such an unforgivable environment that it would make no sense to further trap the area because as far as the Reapers/Collector's banked, it is impossible for the next species to be harvested to venture there and survive. They relied primarily on hiding in plain sight really, people know they exist beyond the Omega-4 relay, but no one has been able to get there.

3) Collector's don't indoctrinate, Reapers do, and there was only one in production.

4) Indoctrination apparently takes time to happen, because obviously Shephard and his crew weren't indoctrinated, despite obviously being on a Reaper or being in the presence of one. Therefore it may be possible to rotate science staff.

5) TIM was studying psychological profiles of his scientists to figure out if people of certain psychological profiles were predisposed to be Indoctrinated.