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[Xaijin]

Goodwood wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
WWII is rather similar, as Reapers use co-opted maligned ideals and transmogrified tech to justify their genocidal ideology. Rather similar to others, if you bother to do the research.

Are the Reapers using this to justify their ideology or is it a matter of their survival?

To the ardent Anti-Semites of the german 20s and 30s there was very little difference; whihc is pretty hilarious because actual "Aryans" are in fact, Gypsies. Several of the popular serial publications had repeated mantras, one of which was "for the survival of our people".

If it wasn't  a Reaper Mantra yet, it soon will b, cause i don't think "hey, wait guys this is all a HUGE mistake" is going to work anymore. The Reapers have cast their die.

To be honest, with the exception of their intent to kill loads of people, I don't see how the Reapers are in any way similar to the ideology of Hitler's Germany. The Reapers have been doing this stuff for millions of years -- perhaps a billion years or more -- and seem perfectly fine with it. That is, they don't have to justify to themselves what they do; they are sufficiently alien as to defy any attempts to understand their thinking, even if we can guess at how their consciousness works (Legion's assertion of "one will, many minds"). For all we know, the Reapers might have started out as biosynthetic warships utilized by an ancient spacefaring species, and something really bad happened that FUBAR-ed their programming. To impart human values and thought processes onto such vast constructs is, I think, dangerous, as it lends itself to underestimating their capabilities.

Except it still has to be boiled down to cause effect rationalization to the humans playing the game.

DUN DUN DUN.

Biomechanical technorganic or just chock full of tranferred passive aggressive hate, still has to be delineated to a gameplay goal and a cut scene you can understand. EA's gangsta like that.

[Xaijin]

Arijharn wrote...

I originally dismissed the collector base because of fears of indoctrination, but then I thought a bit more about it and here's what I came up with:
1) The Collector's are basically dead-end Protheans. I think Mordin stated when he talks about their dead culture that they aren't susceptible to 'Indoctrination' anymore, much like how the Keepers no longer respond to Reaper commands, just the Citadel's.
2) The Collector base is located in such an unforgivable environment that it would make no sense to further trap the area because as far as the Reapers/Collector's banked, it is impossible for the next species to be harvested to venture there and survive. They relied primarily on hiding in plain sight really, people know they exist beyond the Omega-4 relay, but no one has been able to get there.
3) Collector's don't indoctrinate, Reapers do, and there was only one in production.
4) Indoctrination apparently takes time to happen, because obviously Shephard and his crew weren't indoctrinated, despite obviously being on a Reaper or being in the presence of one. Therefore it may be possible to rotate science staff.
5) TIM was studying psychological profiles of his scientists to figure out if people of certain psychological profiles were predisposed to be Indoctrinated.

Making sense hasn't occurred to either Cerberus or the Reapers. They just want stuff and have the power to take it. So they do, and both are terribly butthurt when said behavior bites them in the ass.

[spacehamsterZH]

This has probably been brought up in this thread by now (I did my usual "read the first page and then skip ahead to the last" mad ninja stunt), but seriously... I'm all for arguing about the ethics of Cerberus, but what I don't understand is people saying the way Shepard reacts to them isn't handled believably.



a) Practically everytime somebody says something about their ethics or the fact that Shepard works for them, there's a "Cerberus can choke on a space sausage" or "I don't work for them, they work for me" option, and



Renegade Shepard has always been about getting the job done no matter what, so it's perfectly in character.

[Goodwood]

Xaijin wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
WWII is rather similar, as Reapers use co-opted maligned ideals and transmogrified tech to justify their genocidal ideology. Rather similar to others, if you bother to do the research.

Are the Reapers using this to justify their ideology or is it a matter of their survival?

To the ardent Anti-Semites of the german 20s and 30s there was very little difference; whihc is pretty hilarious because actual "Aryans" are in fact, Gypsies. Several of the popular serial publications had repeated mantras, one of which was "for the survival of our people".

If it wasn't  a Reaper Mantra yet, it soon will b, cause i don't think "hey, wait guys this is all a HUGE mistake" is going to work anymore. The Reapers have cast their die.

To be honest, with the exception of their intent to kill loads of people, I don't see how the Reapers are in any way similar to the ideology of Hitler's Germany. The Reapers have been doing this stuff for millions of years -- perhaps a billion years or more -- and seem perfectly fine with it. That is, they don't have to justify to themselves what they do; they are sufficiently alien as to defy any attempts to understand their thinking, even if we can guess at how their consciousness works (Legion's assertion of "one will, many minds"). For all we know, the Reapers might have started out as biosynthetic warships utilized by an ancient spacefaring species, and something really bad happened that FUBAR-ed their programming. To impart human values and thought processes onto such vast constructs is, I think, dangerous, as it lends itself to underestimating their capabilities.

Except it still has to be boiled down to cause effect rationalization to the humans playing the game.

DUN DUN DUN.

Biomechanical technorganic or just chock full of tranferred passive aggressive hate, still has to be delineated to a gameplay goal and a cut scene you can understand. EA's gangsta like that.

A fair point, that, and nicely put.

Being the creative writer and wannabe intellect that I am, I love the idea of thinking all this stuff out to its logical conclusions, hence the walls of text that seem to be my forte...

[Mycrus Ironfist]

DPSSOC wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

Mycrus Ironfist wrote...

it was in the one of the dialogues...

the asari have the commandos
the salarians have the STG
the council has the spectres
and humanity has N7

Fixed that for you.  Cerberus is a criminal organization built around a core of traitorous Alliance officers and rich businessmen, not an Alliance special ops force.

Slight problem N7 has nowhere near the autonomy to be put in the same category as the STG or Spectres (I admit ignorance of the level of autonomy for Asari Commandos).  N7 are the Marine Corp/Navy Seals to the Spectres/STG's' KGB.

N7 is just a training certification, albeit a prestigious one...

what i love about redemption is that there was a discussion point about humanity and the krogan and how violent both species are... if krogan had their own spec op unit, they wouldn't end up with the genocide of the genophage that council races did. (genocide no. 1 - and don't say that it ain't genocide and merely adjusting their birth rate, that was the point of the mordin sidequest).

don't forget about genocide no.2 which is the rachni... if you saved the rachni queen then you would know that they are sentient and not violent... just goaded by the reapers in some way.

hate to bring the real world into it... every nation worth its salt needs a "cerberus" like entity to deal with exceptional circumstances that the system was not designed for.

remember the US took control of the **** scientists post WW2 and with that formed the start of the manhattan project (yes i'm pro nukes too... whether you like it or not, nukes (the threat of nukes & MAD ) gave us peace in our generation).

so keeping the collector base is definitely a good thing.

the only thing i'm contemplating about is what legion said... that we will have to find our own way outside of the mass effect tech that came from the reapers.... that's the only way of beating them...

so with the collector base, cerberus efforts would be used up in trying to understand existing reaper technology rather than making their own "path" or tech tree if you will...

but my counter argument for that is advancements in reaper tech may yield advancement in "new" tech



 

[Goodwood]

Of course governments need folks who do the dirty work; those of us in this thread who are against Cerberus don't deny that fact. The issue here is that these agencies need to be held to a higher standard -- the greater their authority, the more accountable they need to be, and the more dire the consequences should elements of said agency go afoul of the will of the nation it serves.



Cerberus doesn't even bother to keep up a pretense of accountability, which is one reason why they've had such a history of barbarism and a reputation as terrorists. The other reason is, of course, the megalomaniacal nature of Timmy.

[Mycrus Ironfist]

it is yin and yang...



for thieves you send cops

for soldiers you send soldiers

for an army you need an army

for a threat that will wipe humanity and all sentient life you need a "cerberus" like entity.



remember thousands of human was being abducted at the terminus systems and the alliance and the council were dragging feet.

[Mycrus Ironfist]

Xaijin wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
WWII is rather similar, as Reapers use co-opted maligned ideals and transmogrified tech to justify their genocidal ideology. Rather similar to others, if you bother to do the research.

Are the Reapers using this to justify their ideology or is it a matter of their survival?

To the ardent Anti-Semites of the german 20s and 30s there was very little difference; whihc is pretty hilarious because actual "Aryans" are in fact, Gypsies. Several of the popular serial publications had repeated mantras, one of which was "for the survival of our people".

If it wasn't  a Reaper Mantra yet, it soon will b, cause i don't think "hey, wait guys this is all a HUGE mistake" is going to work anymore. The Reapers have cast their die.

To be honest, with the exception of their intent to kill loads of people, I don't see how the Reapers are in any way similar to the ideology of Hitler's Germany. The Reapers have been doing this stuff for millions of years -- perhaps a billion years or more -- and seem perfectly fine with it. That is, they don't have to justify to themselves what they do; they are sufficiently alien as to defy any attempts to understand their thinking, even if we can guess at how their consciousness works (Legion's assertion of "one will, many minds"). For all we know, the Reapers might have started out as biosynthetic warships utilized by an ancient spacefaring species, and something really bad happened that FUBAR-ed their programming. To impart human values and thought processes onto such vast constructs is, I think, dangerous, as it lends itself to underestimating their capabilities.

Except it still has to be boiled down to cause effect rationalization to the humans playing the game.

DUN DUN DUN.

Biomechanical technorganic or just chock full of tranferred passive aggressive hate, still has to be delineated to a gameplay goal and a cut scene you can understand. EA's gangsta like that.

face it only humans play mass effect....

in ben bova's book - i forgot which one, it got a lot of short stories... no matter how alien your creatures are, they have to have a human component to them that your reader can associate with it.

at the core of good science fiction is a good story

[Spartas Husky]

Yawn. this is getting old. Final post.



If you acknowledge there needs to be people doing the dirty work, how to you regulate genocide? or an answer to a terrorist attack?... in reality you can't, otherwise your limiting what you can do, and most likely not achievement victory.



....kind a like that movie with the hacker as Hugh Jackman, and with John Travolta as a ....black ops boss or something.



I find it very accurate:



If they kill a person we kill 10, they blow an apartment, we blow a church, they blow a church, we blow a building, they blow a building, and we f*&%^(^%ing, level their entire country. Only when the enemy knows true fear does the game end.



How do you hold somebody accountable for the fear factor?



Certainty of success? civilian casualties?



yawn. Ima hit the sack... nite....although is like 8am lol

[Bigdoser]

I destroyed the collector base because it has too much power plus the reapers have been around since humans have been in the stone age so I think there are some fail safe's in the base. I won't deny that the base could be useful but sometimes even if you use great power for good intentions it usually blow's up in your face. When I first saw the decision to either keep or blow up the base I compared it to the ring of power in lord of the rings it's just not worth it. As samara said "TIM thinks he has the wisdom to use the base he does not." Also Shandepard you don't need violence and dominance to advance interests ever of heard Ghandi?
(man my english sucks i hope people can understand my post >_<)

Modifié par Bigdoser, 29 mars 2010 - 02:04 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Anyone completely lose it when they heard Kelly say "Cerberus' methods are extreme, but they have noble objectives"?

I felt like there should have been a dialogue option with something along the lines of:

-mentioning rachni experiments
-turning two colonies into Thorian creepers and husks
-two occasions of using thresher maws against a squad of marines (one of which Sole Survivor Shepard was involved with)
-killing Khahoku
-more rachni experiments

She says that line with a straight face that made me want to yell, "Get the f*ck out of here!"

Absolutely agree with you. That made no sense.

[Andorfiend]

Allow me to show you where you contradict yourself.



Here.

Spartas Husky wrote...



My whole point is, NOBODY IS A SAINT, and NOBODY is the devil....unless of course they kill or destroy just for the hell of it....in which case that is a fanatic, or a crazy person lol. ANyways Sitting from afar behind a desktop is easy to see the line dividing, good and evil. When you get close up to that line, you dont see a line anymore, just every individual situation coming at you, and you gota solve them.

And here.

Spartas Husky wrote...

Nobody is to be trusted, everyone is always looking after themselves or their loved ones. ANd thus anybody acting as a judge is clear being hypocritical.

And in another post earlier which I'm not going to bother to grab where you asserted that Cerberus is no different from any other Spec Ops group.



So why are these contradictory? You know... I'm going to change that word. You're not contradicting yourself. You are however willfully missing the bigger picture. You're right that the guy on the pointy end of the spear doesn't see a line, doesn't see the big picture just individual problems.



And that's why that guy isn't in charge. Because somebody has to sit back, see a bigger picture, see the lines and the consequences of crossing them. Because these problems don't exist in isolation.



You can say a judge is a hypocrite, and you might even be right. But we still need people to exercise judgement. That is a job that needs doing, and it needs qualified people doing it.



The difference between Cerberus and any of the other organizations you mentioned is that they answer to their governments. Cerberus just does whatever the hell they feel like, and so far the have screwed up every single thing they have ever done with three exceptions.



In the real world Spec Ops groups don't just go out and kill every bad guy because the governments that control them have larger pictures to deal with. Trade, treaties, resources, foreign relations, allies and their allies, treaties and trade partners. Problems don't exist in isolation, that's an illusion from being too close.



TIM is a small picture guy who thinks he is a big picture guy and had the Charisma to con others into believing him, and that's why he is an unmitigated screwup and a danger to all humanity.



And to answer your question about blowing up the Collector base ... because the foundation of the Collectors tech is Reaper tech and so far we have yet to see anyone study Reaper tech without getting indoctrinated, or turned into a husk. And if they did somehow manage to master the Collectors tech base TIM is the last person in the Galaxy I would trust with indoctrination tech and genetic engineering on that level.



Because as you mentioned, some people are just crazy. You can claim their is no good or evil, but most people would agree Mother Teresa was good and Jeffery Daumer was evil. And I'm pretty sure TIM is freaking bat**** barking at the moon crazy evil.

[Xaijin]

Pretty funny the two pro people in the thread have yet to concretely address anything posted in direct counter.



Still waiting on that retraction.

[Nightwriter]

Who are the two pro people?? Damn it, I've been out of this thread too long, I've missed everything.

[The Governator]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well Kahouku was asking for it

This.

Also a colony overrun by the thotian creepers has no identified connection to Cerberus. Replay ME1, or read ME Wiki before posting nonsense.

Wat?

Admiral Kahoku was investigating his slaughtered squad and then investigated a terroristic "rogue black-ops" branch of the alliance. I mean, sure, its dangerous to deal with terrorists, but fighting them is the only right thing to do (at least in games) He's a tragic figure at most, but he's a goddam hero, a bloody icon.

And yeah, there are several thorian incidents, one is binary helix (iirc), the other is Cerberus. And anyway, what's your point? If some of the bad things in ME1 were NOT cerberus that doesn't mean cerberus is suddenly responsible for anything good in ME1, no does it?!

I'm not taking any position here, i just point at the arguments...

I am taking a position.  Zulu is DEAD WRONG!

[Xaijin]

The Reapers are still aware of how as well as why, and unlike the godwinned villains else-post, the reapers are still around and still capable of kicking your butts. They've survived by controlling the circumstances, and this time isn't any different, save for the player's decisions.

Modifié par Xaijin, 29 mars 2010 - 07:57 .

[AntiChri5]

Cant believe the Cerberus fanboys.

[Collider]

Either Cerberus has a problem keeping track of it's own project teams, or they're dirty terrorists. It's quite true they were the only ones who would help Shepard as they did, but you can't excuse them from torturing and performing tests on live subjects.

[Bigdoser]

Collider wrote...

Either Cerberus has a problem keeping track of it's own project teams, or they're dirty terrorists. It's quite true they were the only ones who would help Shepard as they did, but you can't excuse them from torturing and performing tests on live subjects.

The pro cerb people still say its justified they won't listen to reason.

[Internet Kraken]

Xaijin wrote...

Pretty funny the two pro people in the thread have yet to concretely address anything posted in direct counter.

Still waiting on that retraction.

I still haven't seen a decent justification for Akuze. And before someone says "go back and read", I already did. I didn't see any decent justification.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

Either Cerberus has a problem keeping track of it's own project teams, or they're dirty terrorists.

I don't know which is worse.

Though the former always seemed dubious to me in game, the whole "rogue cell" thing. EDI said TIM keeps only a small number of Cerberus cells, specifically so he can keep track of them all and control them.