701 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

The whole "rogue cell" thing is useful if you want to disassociate yourself from your shadowy practices. It's better for PR. I don't buy it, but it's in Cerberus' interests to pass it off as all rogue activities. I'm hoping we'll be able to sway Cerberus in another direction, if not disband it completely.

[Nightwriter]

I felt as though Bioware HAD to put in that recording on Jack's sidequest of that scientist saying, "TIM's getting suspicious..."



That place going rogue was the only thing they could do to make sure Cerberus didn't look like an outright monster. Bioware must always keep Cerberus in ambiguity, or else we'd never buy working with them.

[Internet Kraken]

Nightwriter wrote...



I felt as though Bioware HAD to put in that recording on Jack's sidequest of that scientist saying, "TIM's getting suspicious..."



That place going rogue was the only thing they could do to make sure Cerberus didn't look like an outright monster. Bioware must always keep Cerberus in ambiguity, or else we'd never buy working with them.

True. But that facility going rogue doesn't exactly paint a positive image either. If TIM didn't know what they were doing there, he must be incredibly incompetent. How do you not notice your agents buying children from batarian slavers and shipping them off to a secret facility designed specifically for torturous experiments?

[Collider]

Agreed. So the choice of whether to humor Cerberus isn't black and white. There needs to be some positive qualities for complexity. One of things I love about Mass Effect and Dragon Age is the grey morality. Bioshock was praised for "moral decisions" but the choices literally amounted to saving a little girl or killing a little girl. WTF kind of choice is that?

[Internet Kraken]

Collider wrote...

Agreed. So the choice of whether to humor Cerberus isn't black and white. There needs to be some positive qualities for complexity. One of things I love about Mass Effect and Dragon Age is the grey morality. Bioshock was praised for "moral decisions" but the choices literally amounted to saving a little girl or killing a little girl. WTF kind of choice is that?

Frankly I think Dragon Age did moral choices a lot better than Mass Effect did. Mass Effect 2 did have some more complex choices, but the presence of the renegade and paragon meter eliminates the illusion of grey morality. I think Legion's loyalty mission is a perfect example of this.

One thing I found funny about BioShock was that there never really was a choice. Only an ignorant player would kill the little sisters since saving them eventually gives you more adam and some special bonuses. So there isn't any reason to kill them.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 29 mars 2010 - 07:48 .

[AntiChri5]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I felt as though Bioware HAD to put in that recording on Jack's sidequest of that scientist saying, "TIM's getting suspicious..."

That place going rogue was the only thing they could do to make sure Cerberus didn't look like an outright monster. Bioware must always keep Cerberus in ambiguity, or else we'd never buy working with them.

True. But that facility going rogue doesn't exactly paint a positive image either. If TIM didn't know what they were doing there, he must be incredibly incompetent. How do you not notice your agents buying children from batarian slavers and shipping them off to a secret facility designed specifically for torturous experiments?

Not to mention placing children in the hands of someone who would do that.

"but TIM didnt know!"

bull****, he didnt know his people were capable of that, that is why he recruited them.

[DPSSOC]

Mycrus Ironfist wrote...

remember thousands of human was being abducted at the terminus systems and the alliance and the council were dragging feet.

Dragging their feet implies they were taking action; they were doing nothing.  If you talk to the Councillors from ME1 (none of the other ME2 Councils will speak with you far as I know) they flat out tell you they have no intention to ever do anything, they could be lying because you're working for the enemy but knowing those three I doubt it.  Even the Alliance was taking no action until TIM dropped a hint that Cerberus may be involved.

This is why I'm pretty sure ME3 is going to be the same Shepard + Squad single handedly taking on the Reapers from 1 and 2 rather than a Dragon Age gather an army scenario because no government in the game seems willing to take any action until the enemy is at their gates, and at that point it's too late.

End Off Topic Rant

[Collider]

Internet Kraken wrote...
Frankly I think Dragon Age did moral choices a lot better than Mass Effect did. Mass Effect 2 did have some more complex choices, but the presence of the renegade and paragon meter eliminates the illusion of grey morality.

Yes, it did. Although I think the Connor thing where you could just use the Circle Tower was...kind of an easy way out.

I think Legion's loyalty mission is a perfect example of this.

Exactly! I loved the legion loyalty mission choice. But the whole paragon/renegade thing diminishes it.

One thing I found funny about BioShock was that there never really was a choice. Only an ignorant player would kill the little sisters since saving them eventually gives you more adam and some special bonuses. So there isn't any reason to kill them.

Yea, that's why I scoff at the idea of Bioshock's choices. There's not really a choice at all. Saving the little sisters is more beneficial in the long run, and gets you the best ending. Killing them, well...pretty much just makes you a child killer.

[Andorfiend]

Nightwriter wrote...

I felt as though Bioware HAD to put in that recording on Jack's sidequest of that scientist saying, "TIM's getting suspicious..."

That place going rogue was the only thing they could do to make sure Cerberus didn't look like an outright monster. Bioware must always keep Cerberus in ambiguity, or else we'd never buy working with them.

Meh. I still don't see any ambiguity. Especially after reading Ascension. TIM is perfectly happy to murder children. He probably thinks they make a nice main course for dinner. TIM talks a good game about doing anything whatsoever to advance humanity but he is full of it. As far as I can tell TIMs definition of humanity is TIM.

And frankly in most of the cases where we see Cerberus in operation they are not simply using extreme methods to get results. They are using crappy, short sighted, self defeating methods to get poor, backfiring results. If he wasn't so hell bent on being the biggest monster he can be he'd do much better.

If you reall want what's best for humanity you have to think long term, not short term. That means you don't waste resources. Especially rare and valuable resources like biotic children.

[Zulu_DFA]

Andorfiend wrote...
Especially rare and valuable resources like biotic children.

You must be joking. Detonate a ship's drive above some densely populated area, and you get a lot of biotic children.

[AntiChri5]

Andorfiend wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I felt as though Bioware HAD to put in that recording on Jack's sidequest of that scientist saying, "TIM's getting suspicious..."

That place going rogue was the only thing they could do to make sure Cerberus didn't look like an outright monster. Bioware must always keep Cerberus in ambiguity, or else we'd never buy working with them.

Meh. I still don't see any ambiguity. Especially after reading Ascension. TIM is perfectly happy to murder children. He probably thinks they make a nice main course for dinner. TIM talks a good game about doing anything whatsoever to advance humanity but he is full of it. As far as I can tell TIMs definition of humanity is TIM.

And frankly in most of the cases where we see Cerberus in operation they are not simply using extreme methods to get results. They are using crappy, short sighted, self defeating methods to get poor, backfiring results. If he wasn't so hell bent on being the biggest monster he can be he'd do much better.

If you reall want what's best for humanity you have to think long term, not short term. That means you don't waste resources. Especially rare and valuable resources like biotic children.

There is so much truth in this post that you will soon be assassinated by one of the Cerberus groupies.

Im gonna bold my favourite bits.....

[AntiChri5]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
Especially rare and valuable resources like biotic children.

You must be joking. Detonate a ship's drive above some densely populated area, and you get a lot of biotic children.

Really? How many?

About one for every 500 lives lost. Then you just kill the kids.

[Zulu_DFA]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
Especially rare and valuable resources like biotic children.

You must be joking. Detonate a ship's drive above some densely populated area, and you get a lot of biotic children.

Really? How many?

About one for every 500 lives lost. Then you just kill the kids.

I heard the Earth is overpopulated. Maybe a solution here.

[AntiChri5]

Then you should be locked up.

[Internet Kraken]

You know I've been thinking, how can anyone really think TIM is pro humanity when he does so many things that are to the detriment of humans? He let thresher maws attack a squad of alliance soldiers. He bought bioitic children from batarian slavers, and in doing so he supports their continued attacks against human colonies. He's pro Cerberus, not pro humanity.

[AntiChri5]

Internet Kraken wrote...

You know I've been thinking, how can anyone really think TIM is pro humanity when he does so many things that are to the detriment of humans? He let thresher maws attack a squad of alliance soldiers. He bought bioitic children from batarian slavers, and in doing so he supports their continued attacks against human colonies. He's pro Cerberus, not pro humanity.

But he can rationalise that by jumping about shouting "Cerberus IS humanity" so that anything that benefits Cerberus (in his mind) benefits humanty. And as we all know what is good for Cerberus is good for Timmy.

Which means he has an excuse to do absoloutely anything to advance his own interests by any means necessary and without even the thought of pesky morality.

[Tin Soldier]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
Especially rare and valuable resources like biotic children.

You must be joking. Detonate a ship's drive above some densely populated area, and you get a lot of biotic children.

Really? How many?

About one for every 500 lives lost. Then you just kill the kids.

I heard the Earth is overpopulated. Maybe a solution here.

meh.  I like Jonathan Swift's idea better.

[Andorfiend]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
Especially rare and valuable resources like biotic children.

You must be joking. Detonate a ship's drive above some densely populated area, and you get a lot of biotic children.

You're kidding right? The original eezo dump was over Sinagapore and resulted in a few dozen children. That's about as densely populated as you can get and it's not what I call 'lots'. I was frankly shocked at how many biotics Shepard and crew kill in ME 1. That had to be a significant dent in humanities total population of biotics.

Oh. And ships drives cost billions of dollars. That makes each biotic worth tens of millions at a minimum. And this is what TIM happily spends like water in order to make a really powerful biotic psychotic who hates his guts with every fiber of her being? Yeah. That's good long term planning. I just hope I'm there to watch when Jack finally gets her hands on Timmy.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 30 mars 2010 - 12:08 .

[Arijharn]

People on both sides of the Cerberus fence have rose-tinted glasses. This isn't helped by the fact that in ME1 Cerberus was pretty much coloured as immoral (or to use some people's vocabulary: 'evil'). Kids, the goal-posts are somewhat different now that we know more about the organisation.

Pro's for Cerberus:
- 'Speciest' pride. I don't think anyone can realistically say that being proud of being a human is necessarily a bad thing. This is like being proud of your country. In fact, I kinda think 'Cerberus IS humanity' is a pretty good rip on the whole patriotism angle.
- Public works. Cerberus provides aid money to area's under stress. This is actually shown in the mission complete screen at least for Horizon (but hey, many people probably skip through these screens without reading it anyway) and I think is implied for the aftermath of Jacob's loyalty mission. I think they also provide aid to Freedom's Progress as well, but I'm admittedly unsure.
- Innovation. If the design of the Normandy is any judge, then Cerberus believes strongly in the idea of leading in the technology race. Cord-Hislop for example is a Cerberus front company and is an aerospace manufacturer, a rip on the whole modern 'illuminati' and 'new world order' conspiracy theories out there. I think it's actually pretty safe to assume that the main reason that the Council races think of the System's Alliance as a 'sleeping giant' is because that the system's alliance (and likely therefore, the manufacturer's of the System's Alliance armament's) think outside the box.

Neg's for Cerberus:
- Some people in this case label the speciest pride as being excessive. This begs the question of course in 'what level of speciest pride is all right?'
- Experimentation. This is obviously what gets most people's panties in a twist. However, Ashley Williams herself says (to paraphrase) that 'you can't keep on expecting your allies of today will be your allies tomorrow.' Cerberus obviously feels that experimentation must be performed in order to maintain a military edge on threats that may not be around today, but might be around tomorrow. To mirror this into a more modern approach; there is a reason why companies like Boeing etc continue to design ever more lethal aircraft. Do you honestly believe what's in the skies today is the product of brainstorming around the coffee table 2 weeks ago? Imagine what's on the drawing table now, I would guess that it's at least 5-10 years ahead of what's in the sky today... and that includes things like the F-35 or F-22.
- TIM's 'maverick' status. How exactly would 'government oversight' aid Cerberus' goals exactly? My opinion is basically this: Sure experimentation without pre-existing research is monstrous, but at the end of the day if you honestly dismiss biotic amplification out of hand because it might be regarded as morally grey, then aren't you essentially short-selling your own goal of not being rendered obsolete? For all we know, Pragia was given the goal of 'make biotics better' and then like the Lazarus Cell, they had essentially free-reign to do what they please. If anything, this means that perhaps Cerberus Command should pay more attention to it's research projects and sure Cerberus would have some utter-bastard extremists, but it would mean more 'oversight.'

I dunno though, TiM strikes me as being an intelligent man. He is tempered by his noble goal (whether misplaced or not) so its hardly akin to some random person from the street abducting a random person because he has
A) Information
 A plan
C) The resources
D) A goal.

This is probably my biggest problem with the mission complete screen, people are prone to skipping it out of hand without reading it, and then selectively take things they like and don't like about any given situation and skew it into their self-interests. Is TIM a bastard? Probably, but I feel safer with him at the helm than someone like Elias Kelhem.

[Spartas Husky]

Andorfiend wrote...


You can say a judge is a hypocrite, and you might even be right. But we still need people to exercise judgement. That is a job that needs doing, and it needs qualified people doing it.

Who is qualified to do so?

Take todays day. Who is qualified to tell a Green Berrett how to do his job?Who is qualified to tell Cerberus not to do anything ....inmoral?

The Alliance, which is another word for a politician who steals money everytime they can?

COuncil.....same as above?

A simple civilian who has no idea what is at stake and a civilians job is to pay taxes and be quiet.

The STG? Krogan fiasco anyone?

Spectres? they blew an entire array of krogan space stations

Krogans? who used asteroid drops on turians and are pro torture?

....batarians? nvm batarians lol


I am not contradicting my self. Point is, the guy on the field can't see right from wrong. The guy in charge of him has other things to worry about, and is more interested in success not whether or not what he is doing is acceptable.


Everyone on the field, is to deep to see the actual line.

Everyone in Charge cares not about the enemy, or the thousands of civilians, he/she cares about the couple of hundreds soldiers he/she wants to get out alive. Nothing else matters.

Everyone That is right on top watching the bigger picture dont see anyone, not a line, nor individuals, they see progress in 2 ways. The expdient bath, or the long path. Both are drentched in the blood of millions, doesn't matter which way you choose, you think you choose the right path because it satisfies your conciounce in some way.

Like I said before. Which one do you favor?

Mutilation, torture, experimantation 
of millions of animals to produce a cure of some sort over a long
period?

OR

Mutilation, torture experimantation of a couple thousands of
humans to do the same, in a short time?


Some think one is the lesser, evil... there isn't a lesser evil, is just two sides of the same coin.

SOme think sacrificing animals is better than humans....some think, animals are also able to feel physical pain, they also got a central nervous system so why not do it the other way around is faster...and there is plenty of unwanted scum around to use?


Like taught to me in Basic. "The only way to lead, and show how is done, is for you to have done it yourself ,otherwise you got no right to tell others how to do anything."

[Arijharn]

Spartas, I totally agree. I guess people might say: 'public oversight.' But honestly, look at a state like California. Everyone wants something for good reason, but no one wants to pay the extra taxes to get it (for good reason).



I might be declared a hypocrite if I said that I support Cerberus' goals but wouldn't want to be experimented on myself and you'd be right. But people forget I think that if experimentation was the only way to ensure your safety then people most likely wouldn't be so eager to jump up and down and grab their pitchforks. It's all hypothetical

[Booglarize]

Arijharn wrote...


- Public works. Cerberus provides aid money to area's under stress. This is actually shown in the mission complete screen at least for Horizon (but hey, many people probably skip through these screens without reading it anyway) and I think is implied for the aftermath of Jacob's loyalty mission. I think they also provide aid to Freedom's Progress as well, but I'm admittedly unsure.

Indeed, one might even say that they make the trains rapid transits run on time. 

Also...

Arijharn wrote...

- 'Speciest' pride. I don't think anyone can realistically say that being proud of being a human is necessarily a bad thing. This is like being proud of your country. In fact, I kinda think 'Cerberus IS humanity' is a pretty good rip on the whole patriotism angle.

The key distinction here is that one's species is an immutable characteristic, whereas one's nationality is not. Basically, "being proud of being human" is the functional equivalent of "being proud of being white/blond/blue-eyed/left-handed". Of course, whether you consider that to be good or bad is entirely up to you. The moral question aside, I think we can all agree that at the very least, there is something fundamentally illogical about viewing any immutable characteristic as a matter of pride. 

Modifié par Booglarize, 30 mars 2010 - 12:45 .

[Arijharn]

Booglarize wrote...
The key distinction here is that one's species is an immutable characteristic, whereas one's nationality is not. Basically, "being proud of being human" is the functional equivalent of "being proud of being white". Of course, whether you consider that to be good or bad is entirely up to you. 

I guess... I'm proud of being 'white' as you say, but that doesn't mean I hate 'blacks,' asians or any other ethnicity out there. To be honest, while I may be over-rationalizing here, I don't see the point of being racist, sexist or even homophobic for that matter. I just see the concept of being that moronic, essentially your cutting down 'potential friends' for no real reason.

That's my tangent over though, sorry if I missed any intended sarcasm though (I can't tell... damn these internets!)  

[Sajuro]

Cerberus Profit Plan



Torture Children/unleash thresher maws onto colony/ turn captives into husks

?????

Profit!



Long story short, the illusive man isn't evil just incredibly stupid

[Booglarize]

Arijharn wrote...

To be honest, while I may be over-rationalizing here, I don't see the point of being racist, sexist or even homophobic for that matter. I just see the concept of being that moronic, essentially your cutting down 'potential friends' for no real reason.

  

Well, you could take that one step further - there's no point in imbuing any immutable difference with some kind of grand cosmic significance, to the point where you will only help people who share [immutable trait X] to the exclusion of people who don't. Cerberus's entire premise as an organization, to me, seems like one big logical misstep.