701 réponses à ce sujet

[Andorfiend]

Shandepared wrote...

Hellebore5000 wrote...

What history are you reading to think na zism is a model that will likely be a world power in the future?

It has nothing to do with ****sm. I suggest you read a history book instead of watching WWII movies. The Allies didn't fight the ****s because it was "the right thing to do". They were just as ruthless and committed plenty of atrocities of their own. I know it must be easier though to be a complete sucker for propaganda and popular culture. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

You have got to be kidding me. Are you honestly trying to tell me that anything the Allies did even comes close to the Holocaust or Dr. Mengle's experiments? And please take into account that the actions of the Allies were undertaken in wartime. The ****s has started butchering their own citizens long before the war began.

Either your post is a troll, you're a holocaust denier, or you have raised cynicism to a suicidal folly.

[Zulu_DFA]

Andorfiend wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Hellebore5000 wrote...

What history are you reading to think na zism is a model that will likely be a world power in the future?

It has nothing to do with ****sm. I suggest you read a history book instead of watching WWII movies. The Allies didn't fight the ****s because it was "the right thing to do". They were just as ruthless and committed plenty of atrocities of their own. I know it must be easier though to be a complete sucker for propaganda and popular culture. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

You have got to be kidding me. Are you honestly trying to tell me that anything the Allies did even comes close to the Holocaust or Dr. Mengle's experiments? And please take into account that the actions of the Allies were undertaken in wartime. The ****s has started butchering their own citizens long before the war began.

Either your post is a troll, you're a holocaust denier, or you have raised cynicism to a suicidal folly.

2 words:

Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Turn one page backwards for details.

[Arijharn]

Mukora wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Damn straight. Enjoy your coffin.

God, I really hope that if we ever discover other races you Cerberus lovers aren't in charge. Cerberus are ***holes, end of story.

Dear god, I hope blind idealists like you never get in charge, because you'll bend over as soon as someone disagrees with human goals because you don't want to alienate the... well, aliens.

End of story.

[Andorfiend]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

3th. I want more for me and for my close ones, than my neighbor does. I want more luck, better stuff or something. We all do, from simple things like a better....lawn to complex things like.....better houses or something. It is what drives us. To want more, to live better, at the expense of others, whether they are animals, plants or the like of us.

This "To want more, to live better," and this "at the expense of others," are unconnected thoughts. If everyone was solely concerned with advancing themselves by pushing down their neighbors, rather than by improving things for both of you then we would indeed still be living in caves and scratching our selves. But maybe you'd have a bigger pile of furs. Until someone kicked your ass and took them.
 

...remember the romans?

Help your neighbors neighbors succeed, so they help you take your neighbors.

Then help your new neighbor's neighbors, so you take them out next.

Those at your frontiers are enemies, help those behind your enemies, and keep moving.

Hell Romans were the perfect example of this.

Half right! The romans conquered people and made them romans. The conquered areas adopted Roman language, roman culture, roman technology and beliefs and gained Roman citizenship.

Eventually Romans forgot what it was to be Roman. They treated their foreign mercenaries as hired scum instead of as Romans in training. They became so corrupt that they no longer worked for the benefit of Rome but only themselves. And Rome fell.

Spartas Husky wrote...
You keep forgetting, and I keep saying it, I dont mean agenda personally, a groups agenda for god sake.

But here is the fundamental point where we disagree. You think believe the Cerberus propaganda that they are working for the benefit of Mankind. I think Cerberus is working for the benefit of Cerberus. Hell TIM even tells you that "Cerberus is humanity". And since he is pretty cavalier about the lives of his personel he also thinks Cerberus is TIM.

Get it? Every damm thing TIM does is for the benefit of TIM. When has he ever deliberately done anything that helped someone else more than it helped him? That's why he is a menace. That's why Kelly is a sucker when she sticks up for him in game.

You said earlier that there is no good and evil, just survival. Fine but even with that idea you still have a sliding scale of morality.

At the very bottom of that scale, the least moral person, is the coward. The man who will sacrifice anything and anyone to save his own life.
More moral is the average family man who will die to defend his wife and child.
Above that is the man who fights to defend his town and neighbors.
And it keeps going up.
Country.
Species or culture.
All intelligent life.

Shepard is the hero, the most moral man, because he is fighting for the survival of every being in the galaxy. Less moral than him is the Council who refuse to face a threat outside of their own smaller world. Less moral than that is the Cerberus grunt who thinks every thinking being that isn't human can go hang. And way down at the bottom, the most 'evil' of them all is TIM, who only cares about TIM.

A Green Beret is a good man reguardless of the blood of his hands because he dies so that others who are not his kin but his countrymen can live in peace and safety.

[Arijharn]

Andorfiend wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Hellebore5000 wrote...

What history are you reading to think na zism is a model that will likely be a world power in the future?

It has nothing to do with ****sm. I suggest you read a history book instead of watching WWII movies. The Allies didn't fight the ****s because it was "the right thing to do". They were just as ruthless and committed plenty of atrocities of their own. I know it must be easier though to be a complete sucker for propaganda and popular culture. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

You have got to be kidding me. Are you honestly trying to tell me that anything the Allies did even comes close to the Holocaust or Dr. Mengle's experiments? And please take into account that the actions of the Allies were undertaken in wartime. The ****s has started butchering their own citizens long before the war began.

Either your post is a troll, you're a holocaust denier, or you have raised cynicism to a suicidal folly.

I haven't really done any in depth research, but you're incredibly naive if you think that the allies didn't actually take on board information gained by the ****'s in their horrific experiments. How long a naked average male can survive in ice cold water is actually pretty damn useful to know in regards to when the best times to maximise search and rescue attempts etc happens.

While barbaric, a lot of useful transplant information was gained from them too. WW2 was the entire reason the Hippocratic Oath was created.

If, however, you were in charge of the recovery efforts, everythign you have said and proposed makes me inclined to believe you'd just sanitize the area. Like Shephard's naive genophage response: "you can't keep this information, they tested on live subjects... it's 'tainted!'" No one in their right mind supports ****sm (but you know, if ****sm won we'd probably be singing a very different tune no?) but that information, despite it's source, was needed. Well, some of it anyway... stuff like how long it takes to kill someone when exposed to gas I doubt would be as needed other than by successive government biological weapons divisions... or Emergency Response Teams.

It is a shame (well, shame doesn't really do the level of empathy needed to do it justice, what could?) that so many people died for it and for ridiculous reasons. However, we might not have as much success in s&r attempts nowadays if the Naz i's didn't exist.

But you know, that aspect of our history is pretty irrelevant in regards to Cerberus. Okay, I get it, you don't like their methods, but what would be the 'correct' methods then? Can people really trust any other species to stay our mutual allies for the rest of your time together (and by time, I mean as long as galactic civilisation exists). I think everyone likes the idea of peace and all, but we don't lead a peaceful existence... just look at the world news. It would require a massive event that is far beyond human control (or any species control in the ME universe, because they are all just humans with different skin tone...) to get people to play nice, and the Reapers don't represent that 'massive event.'

[Andorfiend]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
You have got to be kidding me. Are you honestly trying to tell me that anything the Allies did even comes close to the Holocaust or Dr. Mengle's experiments? And please take into account that the actions of the Allies were undertaken in wartime. The ****s has started butchering their own citizens long before the war began.

Either your post is a troll, you're a holocaust denier, or you have raised cynicism to a suicidal folly.

2 words:

Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Turn one page backwards for details.

And how were those significantly different from the firebombing of Tokyo or Dresden? Or the London blitz or the Rape of Nankang? The bombing of civilians in wartime is an unfortunate reality of war. It is not even listed in the same book as the madness of the Holocaust. There was nothing necessary, or advantageous or sane about the Holocaust.

And as your own example clearly implied it was done in part to forestall an even larger war between America and Russia. Or do you think that a total war between the Communist countries and everyone else would have had fewer than 200,000 civilian casualties?

So on topic. Bombing civilians in wartime? Sure. I'd be okay with cerberus doing that. If they were an actual military instead of a bunch of lunatics. Torturing children to death? Nope. That is ****ing evil whether it's being done by Cerberus or the ****s.

[Zulu_DFA]

Andorfiend wrote...
The conquered areas adopted Roman language...

Good God! And Americans speak American language, don't they?

May I ask you, if you are absolutely sure you have a clue what you are talking about?

Andorfiend wrote...

A Green Beret is a good man reguardless of the blood of his hands because he dies so that others who are not his kin but his countrymen can live in peace and safety.

And what about an Iraqi suicide bomber? He does exactly the same thing.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 02:19 .

[Arijharn]

Andorfiend wrote...

And how were those significantly different from the firebombing of Tokyo or Dresden? Or the London blitz or the Rape of Nankang? The bombing of civilians in wartime is an unfortunate reality of war. It is not even listed in the same book as the madness of the Holocaust. There was nothing necessary, or advantageous or sane about the Holocaust.

And as your own example clearly implied it was done in part to forestall an even larger war between America and Russia. Or do you think that a total war between the Communist countries and everyone else would have had fewer than 200,000 civilian casualties?

So on topic. Bombing civilians in wartime? Sure. I'd be okay with cerberus doing that. If they were an actual military instead of a bunch of lunatics. Torturing children to death? Nope. That is ****ing evil whether it's being done by Cerberus or the ****s.

Wait, what? You're against the holocaust as every normal person would be but you don't see the difference between atomic weapon deployment and regular carpet bombing? I'm sorry, but are you a... no wait, I'll rephrase it: What the hell is wrong with you?

What about the extended period of radiation poisoning/sickness? Cancers? Psychological Trauma? 

If you can't tell the difference between atomic weapon effects and carpet bombing, then you really have no place to support any opinion in my mind, because you're just an idiot. 

[Spartas Husky]

THis is getting old. Never said TIm was humanity's face. Everyone has their own agenda period. Everyone is an evil ass bunch of donkey butts who care only for their well being and those close to them. End of story.

[Andorfiend]

Arijharn wrote...

I haven't really done any in depth research, but you're incredibly naive if you think that the allies didn't actually take on board information gained by the ****'s in their horrific experiments. How long a naked average male can survive in ice cold water is actually pretty damn useful to know in regards to when the best times to maximise search and rescue attempts etc happens.

Of course they did. It's a matter of public record. Nor do I have a problem with salvaging whatever tiny shreds of good that could be saved from that cesspool of madness and horror.

Arijharn wrote...
But you know, that aspect of our history is pretty irrelevant in regards to Cerberus. Okay, I get it, you don't like their methods, but what would be the 'correct' methods then? Can people really trust any other species to stay our mutual allies for the rest of your time together (and by time, I mean as long as galactic civilisation exists). I think everyone likes the idea of peace and all, but we don't lead a peaceful existence... just look at the world news. It would require a massive event that is far beyond human control (or any species control in the ME universe, because they are all just humans with different skin tone...) to get people to play nice, and the Reapers don't represent that 'massive event.'

Of course not! Where have I ever proposed unilateral disarmament or any other such nonsense? Of course the Alliance has to maintain a solid military. That's why it would be nice if Cerberus would stop killing Alliance military personel and diverting billions of credits worth of cash and materiel that might be used to help keep us safe. Humans are very much the underdogs in the galactic scheme of things. Any one of the Asari, Salarians or Turians could kick our asses with half their strength and all three of them together could do it without blinking. That's one of the many reasons TIM would (if he actually gave a fart in a space suit about anyone but himself) be thinking long term and making nice to the dangerous aliens while we build ourselves up to the point where they can't wipe us out in a brisk afternoon. Instead he is doing his level best to hamper the long term expansion of humanity while kicking every alien he can find in the nuts.

[Xaijin]

Cool story, bro. Pretty awesome how can transmogrify your personal non-researched opinion on the entirety of humanity AND the totality of a fictional universe.

Modifié par Xaijin, 31 mars 2010 - 02:20 .

[Arijharn]

Spartas Husky wrote...

THis is getting old. Never said TIm was humanity's face. Everyone has their own agenda period. Everyone is an evil ass bunch of donkey butts who care only for their well being and those close to them. End of story.

Truer words were never spoken imo. It's natural to look out for number 1... and number 1 is well... you. Exceptional people who look out for society as preference do exist true, but they are an incredible minority.

[Arijharn]

Xaijin wrote...

Cool story, bro. Pretty awesome how can transmogrify your personal non-researched opinion on the entirety of humanity AND the totality of a fictional universe.

Except that if you did any research at all, you'd know you would sound like a fool now because you'd realise that I know enough that they did take information from the mengle experiments to form the hippocratic oath, ice water experiments and transplant techniques.

What I didn't do was indepth research to know things like dates, times and places, or who was involved, how many were experimented on (I'm going to give a conservative guess of 'a lot.')

Also, if you can't see that media of all types somehow do reference events of the real world in some manner, whether it be cultural awareness, military engagements or otherwise rationalisations, then I suggest you wake up and realise my 'stories' actually have relevance, unlike yours who after I provided a plotpoint for you to research, only came back to shout inane statements and then disappear back into the ether. If this is a troll thread to you then, then fine... but kindly bugger off so that people who do want to continue to state their opinion can.

[Andorfiend]

Arijharn wrote...

Wait, what? You're against the holocaust as every normal person would be but you don't see the difference between atomic weapon deployment and regular carpet bombing? I'm sorry, but are you a... no wait, I'll rephrase it: What the hell is wrong with you?

What about the extended period of radiation poisoning/sickness? Cancers? Psychological Trauma? 

If you can't tell the difference between atomic weapon effects and carpet bombing, then you really have no place to support any opinion in my mind, because you're just an idiot. 

I didn't say carpet bombing, I said firebombing. A single tokyo raid is estimated to have killed more people, and wounded far more people than either of the atomic bomb blasts. And they were many raids. Is getting burned to death better than dying in an atomic blast? I haven't done either one, but I know which one I'd pick.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Nagasaki in particular) were not abominable acts. But they were not extraordinarily abominable acts by the standards of that war. Nor do I think they even compare to the Holocaust. KIlling civillians in war is horrid. Murdering your own civillians and millions of others becuase of a sick fantasy of persecution and imagined history is madness. Do you disagree? Or do you really think Hiroshima was just as bad as Auschwitz?

[Halmiriliath]

Arijharn wrote...

But you know, that aspect of our history is pretty irrelevant in regards to Cerberus. Okay, I get it, you don't like their methods, but what would be the 'correct' methods then? Can people really trust any other species to stay our mutual allies for the rest of your time together (and by time, I mean as long as galactic civilisation exists). I think everyone likes the idea of peace and all, but we don't lead a peaceful existence... just look at the world news. It would require a massive event that is far beyond human control (or any species control in the ME universe, because they are all just humans with different skin tone...) to get people to play nice, and the Reapers don't represent that 'massive event.'

This is interesting, because the underlined sentence is the same logic that has pervaded our history. We don't trust those we categorise as 'other', only - with the Mass Effect universe revealing a galaxy beyond humanity - the 'other' is no longer fellow humans. The scale increases, our sense of 'other' alters, but the line of thinking stays the same. The wars fought for pre-dominance in Europe up until after World War II had Europeans categorising  other Europeans as the 'other', and yet - with the 'War of Terrorism' in full swing and a new 'threat' - we see a 'western' identity that has been given precedence over these previously bitter divides and mutual distrust. With this in mind, I would thus pose to you a question in the context of Mass Effect: if the denizens of the Milky Way discovered life on other galaxies (Reapers or not), believed in their existence (no 'Ah yes, "Reapers"'), were able to travel to said galaxies and felt they posed a threat to our existence, would a new sense of co-operation against a common enemy inspire trust in those you think we cannot trust at the moment?

The reason I ask this is because it strikes me as the same kind of situation the US believed to be in existence in the Cold War. Distrust breeds distrust. You get what you give, and all that. Whether you believe it to be blind optimism or not, surely striking out on a different path and at least attempting to trust those we now perceive as the 'other' is better than living in cynical, self-aggrandising fear that is rewarded with reciprocal cynical, self-aggrandising fear from those you perceive as the 'other' (the case in point being the Illusive Man).

[Xaijin]

Arijharn wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Cool story, bro. Pretty awesome how can transmogrify your personal non-researched opinion on the entirety of humanity AND the totality of a fictional universe.

Except that if you did any research at all, you'd know you would sound like a fool now because you'd realise that I know enough that they did take information from the mengle experiments to form the hippocratic oath, ice water experiments and transplant techniques.

What I didn't do was indepth research to know things like dates, times and places, or who was involved, how many were experimented on (I'm going to give a conservative guess of 'a lot.')

Also, if you can't see that media of all types somehow do reference events of the real world in some manner, whether it be cultural awareness, military engagements or otherwise rationalisations, then I suggest you wake up and realise my 'stories' actually have relevance, unlike yours who after I provided a plotpoint for you to research, only came back to shout inane statements and then disappear back into the ether. If this is a troll thread to you then, then fine... but kindly bugger off so that people who do want to continue to state their opinion can.

Also cool story bra; but I wasn't even talking to you or even referencing your points. If I was, I would have brought up the US pardoning Japanese war criminals who killed tens of thousands of US British and Australian/NZ soldiers and MILLIONS of Chinese for completely worthless germ warfare data, and the fact that a joint Allied invasion of the home islands would have resulted in at LEAST a million more Allied casualties and the virtual eradication of the Japanese as a distinct culture and people as shown by Okinawa and Ryukyu post engagement suicide rates.

Modifié par Xaijin, 31 mars 2010 - 02:42 .

[Arijharn]

Andorfiend wrote...

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (Nagasaki in particular) were not abominable acts. But they were not extraordinarily abominable acts by the standards of that war. Nor do I think they even compare to the Holocaust. KIlling civillians in war is horrid. Murdering your own civillians and millions of others becuase of a sick fantasy of persecution and imagined history is madness. Do you disagree? Or do you really think Hiroshima was just as bad as Auschwitz?

That is actually a pretty tough question. In the end though I would say yes simply because both events still cause lasting trauma to both states (the Jewish state and obviously the the country Japan). Nagasaki and Hiroshima of course killed its fair share of non-combatants as well.

I'm not downplaying the Holocaust though, I'm just saying that other tragedies can have an equal effect. If anything, the Holocaust worked to galvanise the jewish people so I guess amidst even all that tragedy, there was a silver lining.

Historically, Japanese foreign policy (especially to America) is absolutely filled with sorrow and anger towards the effects of hiroshima and nagasaki, and area's are still too irradiated to truly safely live (but people still do). Both area's obviously have a marked increase in background radiation saturation etc.

Auschwitz etc still have it's marks on it's survivors and the jewish people (and other 'undesirables') of course, but so too does the atomic bombings, but the atomic bombings also leave a lasting stigma to people who weren't directly involved with the bombings (i.e, radiation exposure related illnesses) which doesn't translate into the death/concentration camp aftermath.

Although, there is no point really 'comparing' tragedies. Tragedies are tragedies for a reason, neither should be forgotten and we should all learn from it.

EDIT - I didn't ' ' the undesirables section. This references to the gypsies and others that the fascist state deemed to be undesirable.

Modifié par Arijharn, 31 mars 2010 - 02:45 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Xaijin wrote...

...and the fact that a join Allied invasion of the home islands would have resulted in at LEAST a million more Allied casualties and the virtual eradication of the Japanese as a distinct culture and people as shown by Okinawa and Ryukyu post engagement suicide rates.

Oh, that's one of the coolest stories, bro, ever. At least it's what they tell you to justify their little live nuclear testing session. In your mind, that is, sh*ted in by them previously so hard, that you won't accept the real justification that worked well enough for them. Whereas the "fact" is that it's better be dead, than red. Hope those Hiroshima&Nagasaki folks knew it (but this hope is a courtesy, not that it's really important now).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 02:48 .

[Xaijin]

Wrong. The cool thing about doing research and knowing lots of of real live Japanese folks is you get a direct 2nd perspective. The other cool thing is the US government documents almost everything, including casualty ratios and field communications.

Additionally all of this, including Japanese public opinion is public knowledge which has been used to create programs on the BBC, the History Channel, Discovery and National Geographic, in both print and video form.

But do continue to second guess what you haven't the slightest clue about, thus further undermining both your credibility and any stance you might take from it.

Modifié par Xaijin, 31 mars 2010 - 02:52 .

[Andorfiend]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
The conquered areas adopted Roman language...

Good God! And Americans speak American language, don't they?

May I ask you, if you are absolutely sure you have a clue what you are talking about?

What in God's Name are you on about? If the USA acted like the Romans all of Europe and Japan would now be speaking english and trying to apply for Statehood.

Not that that has any bearing at al on my point which was that the Roman strategy was not merely military conquest but cultural. Turning an enemy into a part of your self. However instead of trying to export McDonalds and Hollywood TIM is going around trying to pick fights with a bunch of guys who can all kick our asses. Great plan, he realling working for humanity, that guy.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

A Green Beret is a good man reguardless of the blood of his hands because he dies so that others who are not his kin but his countrymen can live in peace and safety.

And what about an Iraqi suicide bomber? He does exactly the same thing.

Can you possibly be that ignorant of current events? Let's try a quick google search on'Iraqi suicide bombings' shall we? Let's see.

• Blog rant.
• News story about a bombing targeting a goverment office and hospitals.
• Time article that mentions the bombings have killed 150 Americans and 1200 Iraqis.
• Wikipedia article that says the shift in targeting towards civillians has lead to 90% of the casualties being Iraqi civillians.
• Another newspaper article about the bombing and how they targeted aid workers.

So you really see no moral or practical difference between a soldier who goes to great lengths to protect civillians and target hostile forces and an insurgent who deliberately targets his own countries civillians and emergency personel? How exactly is that 'dying so his countrymen can live in peace and safety?'

[Dr. Henry Killinger]

The Japanese weren't so nice to civilians during WW2 either though.



See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

[Arijharn]

Halmiriliath wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

But you know, that aspect of our history is pretty irrelevant in regards to Cerberus. Okay, I get it, you don't like their methods, but what would be the 'correct' methods then? Can people really trust any other species to stay our mutual allies for the rest of your time together (and by time, I mean as long as galactic civilisation exists). I think everyone likes the idea of peace and all, but we don't lead a peaceful existence... just look at the world news. It would require a massive event that is far beyond human control (or any species control in the ME universe, because they are all just humans with different skin tone...) to get people to play nice, and the Reapers don't represent that 'massive event.'

This is interesting, because the underlined sentence is the same logic that has pervaded our history. We don't trust those we categorise as 'other', only - with the Mass Effect universe revealing a galaxy beyond humanity - the 'other' is no longer fellow humans. The scale increases, our sense of 'other' alters, but the line of thinking stays the same. The wars fought for pre-dominance in Europe up until after World War II had Europeans categorising  other Europeans as the 'other', and yet - with the 'War of Terrorism' in full swing and a new 'threat' - we see a 'western' identity that has been given precedence over these previously bitter divides and mutual distrust. With this in mind, I would thus pose to you a question in the context of Mass Effect: if the denizens of the Milky Way discovered life on other galaxies (Reapers or not), believed in their existence (no 'Ah yes, "Reapers"'), were able to travel to said galaxies and felt they posed a threat to our existence, would a new sense of co-operation against a common enemy inspire trust in those you think we cannot trust at the moment?

The reason I ask this is because it strikes me as the same kind of situation the US believed to be in existence in the Cold War. Distrust breeds distrust. You get what you give, and all that. Whether you believe it to be blind optimism or not, surely striking out on a different path and at least attempting to trust those we now perceive as the 'other' is better than living in cynical, self-aggrandising fear that is rewarded with reciprocal cynical, self-aggrandising fear from those you perceive as the 'other' (the case in point being the Illusive Man).

Of course, Ideally I would like it if we were allies and could always be allies, but knowing what I know of human nature as it is, I think it is blind optimism (as you said so) to strongly consider it. The Mass Effect codex makes mention that generally speaking, prior to our saving the council every species had at least some negative connontations with humanity because it was doing something bad (activating uncharted mass relays) resulting in what the council races may view as a legal attack by the Turian vessels.

Right or wrong, I doubt this is what humanity could agree on. Humanity was also shaped by its first contact with an alien species in that mainly, they were fired upon. Most of humanity's ships were destroyed with one or more barely surviving to limp back to Shanxi. This is why Cerberus was formed in the first place, and quite simply it's a biological reaction to fight back when attacked.

Cerberus have undoubtedly performed dark deeds in the past. My view is that it's necessary because we can never totally be sure where the next threat could come from. Hopefully, it would never be necessary, but TiM is nothing if not a pragmatist; he would like to be prepared.

You're right (and of course, truth to be told I purposely wrote the underlined section to mirror these events in our past, but that's what storywriters do anyway to make their stories relateable). Distrust breeds distrust, but no one would be prepared to give that up because they would never like to be the one who has bad things happen on 'his watch.'

[Arijharn]

Andorfiend wrote...

Can you possibly be that ignorant of current events? Let's try a quick google search on'Iraqi suicide bombings' shall we? Let's see.

• Blog rant.
  
• News story about a bombing targeting a goverment office and hospitals.
  
• Time article that mentions the bombings have killed 150 Americans and 1200 Iraqis.
  
• Wikipedia article that says the shift in targeting towards civillians has lead to 90% of the casualties being Iraqi civillians.
  Another newspaper article about the bombing and how they targeted aid workers.

So you really see no moral or practical difference between a soldier who goes to great lengths to protect civillians and target hostile forces and an insurgent who deliberately targets his own countries civillians and emergency personel? How exactly is that 'dying so his countrymen can live in peace and safety?'

I think his point was that terrorist suicide bombers don't actually think themselves as terrorists. They view themselves as holy warriors fighting for their God, and that god will show mercy to his family and vengeance to his enemies. As disgusted as we are with the killing of non-combatants, I can see it as them striking at public opinion for the armed forces back home.

[Zulu_DFA]

@Andorfiend

Dude, that ignorant is a person who states, that the Romans spoke Roman. Whereas the Romans spoke Latin.

Next, where does TIM pick fights with the aliens? AFAIK, all his dirty pranks have been confined exclusively to the Human space, except for the Migrant Fleet attack, which was the only possible course of action, as he couldn't work through agents there. But it's not like the Quarians are going to retaliate in overwhelming force anytime soon, are they? About the other alien powers TIM is able to gather intelligence through his agents and operatives with no violence involved above ordinary street crime level.

And no matter what you google tells you, most Iraqis were happy under Saddam. Then rode in the cavalry and burnt their wigwams. To take their oil. Simple as that. And it's not a liberal BS, believe me, because I give no sh*t about the Iraqis, or Indians of Hiroshima citizens. That's between them and the American government, and I am neither. But I see the real picture or a very close reflection of it, nonetheless.

You play as Commander Shepard and is involved in interstellar politics there, that are supposed to be modelled after our mundane Terran politics. And it may help guys like you, to finally open your eyes and look out of the window, instead of  peering into CNN news-show TV picture. That said, www.cnn.com is my homepage!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 03:16 .