701 réponses à ce sujet

[Andorfiend]

Arijharn wrote...

I think his point was that terrorist suicide bombers don't actually think themselves as terrorists. They view themselves as holy warriors fighting for their God, and that god will show mercy to his family and vengeance to his enemies. As disgusted as we are with the killing of non-combatants, I can see it as them striking at public opinion for the armed forces back home.

True but irrelevant to my point or his. If I may quote myself:

Andorfiend
You said earlier that there is no good and evil, just survival. Fine but even with that idea you still have a sliding scale of morality.

At the very bottom of that scale, the least moral person, is the coward. The man who will sacrifice anything and anyone to save his own life.
More moral is the average family man who will die to defend his wife and child.
Above that is the man who fights to defend his town and neighbors.
And it keeps going up.
Country.
Species or culture.
All intelligent life.

Shepard is the hero, the most moral man, because he is fighting for the survival of every being in the galaxy. Less moral than him is the Council who refuse to face a threat outside of their own smaller world. Less moral than that is the Cerberus grunt who thinks every thinking being that isn't human can go hang. And way down at the bottom, the most 'evil' of them all is TIM, who only cares about TIM.

A Green Beret is a good man reguardless of the blood of his hands because he dies so that others who are not his kin but his countrymen can live in peace and safety.

A suicide bomber who strike at his own civilians to make a political point doesn't even show up on that scale, he's off in crazy person land and of no more moral significance than a mad dog.

[Arijharn]

But TIM isn't someone who is going to sacrifice anythign and anyone to save his own life. He's doing it to save humanity or to push humanity. Right or wrong, successful or not, he's got a purpose larger than himself, so he can't be the most morally 'incorrect' person there.

[Zulu_DFA]

Andorfiend wrote...

A suicide bomber who strike at his own civilians to make a political point doesn't even show up on that scale, he's off in crazy person land and of no more moral significance than a mad dog.

It's because your scale is incomplete. The suicide bomber fights for his country and his culture, and maybe also for his parents killed in an airstrike and his children pushed by poverty into prostitution. And as long as he doesn't have a stealth bomber or main battle tank at his disposal, the only way for him to cast his vote is to blow himself up in front of a puppet government structure. His misfortunes surely don't excuse him for what he does in your books, but believe me, in his books he is a very honest and commendable person.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 03:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

But TIM isn't someone who is going to sacrifice anythign and anyone to save his own life. He's doing it to save humanity or to push humanity. Right or wrong, successful or not, he's got a purpose larger than himself, so he can't be the most morally 'incorrect' person there.

Yeah, that was Saren's way.

TIM is smarter than that.

[Andorfiend]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@Andorfiend

Dude, that ignorant is a person who states, that the Romans spoke Roman. Whereas the Romans spoke Latin.

Next, where does TIM pick fights with the aliens? AFAIK, all his dirty pranks have been confined exclusively to the Human space, except for the Migrant Fleet attack, which was the only possible course of action, as he couldn't work through agents there. But it's not like the Quarians are going to retaliate in overwhelming force anytime soon, are they? About the other alien powers TIM is able to gather intelligence through his agents and operatives with no violence involved above ordinary street crime level.

And no matter what you google tells you, most Iraqis were happy under Saddam. Then rode in the cavalry and burnt their wigwams. To take their oil. Simple as that. And it's not a liberal BS, believe me, because I give no sh*t about the Iraqis, or Indians of Hiroshima citizens. That's between them and the American government, and I am neither. But I see the real picture or a very close reflection of it, nonetheless.

You play as Commander Shepard and is involved in interstellar politics there, that are supposed to be modelled after our mundane Terran politics. And it may help guys like you, to finally open your eyes and look out of the window, instead of  peering into CNN news-show TV picture. That said, www.cnn.com is my homepage!

*sigh* Romans spoke the roman language which happens to be Latin. Que est? Americans speak the american language which happens to be English. Phillipinos speak the phillipine language which is called Tagalog. It's a standard grammatical construction and I accidently left out the pronoun. Mea culpa.

I can't even figure out what point you're trying to argue anymore. Can you state your position with reguards to the "Cerberus has extreme methods but noble goals" issue?

Mine is that they don't have noble goals, because TIM is full of bullcrap. As examples I point out that, as you mentioned, he mostly goes around killing humans and destroying colonies from what we've seen. However he is still enough of a jerkwad to the rest of the Galaxy that the Citadel lists them as a terrorist organization. I wonder why that is?

[Andorfiend]

Arijharn wrote...

But TIM isn't someone who is going to sacrifice anythign and anyone to save his own life. He's doing it to save humanity or to push humanity. Right or wrong, successful or not, he's got a purpose larger than himself, so he can't be the most morally 'incorrect' person there.

Do we have any evidence of that aside from TIM's own word? Didn't he also state that 'Cerberus is humanity'? And he obviously reguards most cerberus personel as expendable so that pretty much boils down to TIM doing anything and everything to save or push forward TIM. Actions speak louder than words and TIM damns himself with both.

[Zulu_DFA]

Andorfiend wrote...
Americans speak the american language which happens to be English.

That's the funniest outlook on the linguistic matters I've ever seen. I wonder what the freaky Brits would think of it?
Also the Latin language isn't "roman". It is "latin". It was spoken in the area called Latio, when a bunch of marauding tramps of moot origins set up a basecamp and called it Rome. Then they wanted sex and abducted several Sabine women. Then... look, you'll have to pay me a fee if you want a history class. Or just go to wiki. It's quite accurate 99% of the time. One last thing. Roman Latin alphabet is actually a modified Greek alphabet. For the proof, take the word "alpha-bet[a]".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 03:42 .

[Halmiriliath]

Arijharn wrote...

Of course, Ideally I would like it if we were allies and could always be allies, but knowing what I know of human nature as it is, I think it is blind optimism (as you said so) to strongly consider it. The Mass Effect codex makes mention that generally speaking, prior to our saving the council every species had at least some negative connontations with humanity because it was doing something bad (activating uncharted mass relays) resulting in what the council races may view as a legal attack by the Turian vessels.

Right or wrong, I doubt this is what humanity could agree on. Humanity was also shaped by its first contact with an alien species in that mainly, they were fired upon. Most of humanity's ships were destroyed with one or more barely surviving to limp back to Shanxi. This is why Cerberus was formed in the first place, and quite simply it's a biological reaction to fight back when attacked.

Cerberus have undoubtedly performed dark deeds in the past. My view is that it's necessary because we can never totally be sure where the next threat could come from. Hopefully, it would never be necessary, but TiM is nothing if not a pragmatist; he would like to be prepared.

You're right (and of course, truth to be told I purposely wrote the underlined section to mirror these events in our past, but that's what storywriters do anyway to make their stories relateable). Distrust breeds distrust, but no one would be prepared to give that up because they would never like to be the one who has bad things happen on 'his watch.'

Interesting and perfectly valid arguments. I think, however, that using the initial galactic distrust of humanity to justify the creation of groups like Cerberus is somewhat misleading. Once the initial awe of the realisation of a new 'other/s' subsides (along with instinctual self-defence), a calculated assessment of the nature of galactic politics would have revealed that humanity's postion was not as dire as the Illusive Man would have us believe. The First Contact War could only happen once - the annihilation of a group now part of the galactic community could never be condoned by the leading political powers of the galaxy, the Council included. As such, I feel that the justification of self-defence rings slightly hollow, but that could just be me.

I agree, the Illusive Man is a pragmatist, but if we don't know where the next threat is to come from, how would we be able to prepare anyway? And if he presumes to speak as a protector of humanity, why would he throw away the lives of people who had just as much right to live as those he professes to be safeguarding in the name of expediency in Cerberus' experiments (the marines on Akuze etc.)? Were their lives less sacred and less valuable than those who would reap the 'benefits'  of such atrocities?

[Arijharn]

Andorfiend wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

But TIM isn't someone who is going to sacrifice anythign and anyone to save his own life. He's doing it to save humanity or to push humanity. Right or wrong, successful or not, he's got a purpose larger than himself, so he can't be the most morally 'incorrect' person there.

Do we have any evidence of that aside from TIM's own word? Didn't he also state that 'Cerberus is humanity'? And he obviously reguards most cerberus personel as expendable so that pretty much boils down to TIM doing anything and everything to save or push forward TIM. Actions speak louder than words and TIM damns himself with both.

We do have proof
1) He gives humanitarian aid through various charities (presumably) to mitigate crisis flash points (Horizon mission complete screen)
2) Cerberus owns various technological centres that give the Alliance military advantages. Note; Normandy ship design push (namely, he wanted to learn from the Turians (and not destroy them)). Cord-Hislop aerospace is a front company for Cerberus activities.
3) Admittedly unsuccessful; but both the Rachni and Thorian creeper programs were initiated as to have inexpensive shock troops. Right or Wrong, this would save human lives, and neither the Rachni nor Thorian's were considered prior to this as being particularly sentient.

Not quite proof because I'm unsure (so I didn't put it in directly); but I believe Shephard relates to Jacob directly after (or during) his loyalty mission that 'Cerberus ships' can pick up the survivors of Acting Captain Ronald Taylor.

Also, I'm pretty sure that 'reguards most cerberus personel as expendable so that pretty much boils down to TIM doing anything and everything to save or push forward TIM' as being a logical fallacy. Why would Cerberus personnel being considered 'expendable' automatically mean that it saves or push's forward TIM (reminder, you put this position forward, so you'll have to explain your reasoning).

[Arijharn]

Halmiriliath wrote...


Interesting and perfectly valid arguments. I think, however, that using the initial galactic distrust of humanity to justify the creation of groups like Cerberus is somewhat misleading. Once the initial awe of the realisation of a new 'other/s' subsides (along with instinctual self-defence), a calculated assessment of the nature of galactic politics would have revealed that humanity's postion was not as dire as the Illusive Man would have us believe. The First Contact War could only happen once - the annihilation of a group now part of the galactic community could never be condoned by the leading political powers of the galaxy, the Council included. As such, I feel that the justification of self-defence rings slightly hollow, but that could just be me.

I agree, the Illusive Man is a pragmatist, but if we don't know where the next threat is to come from, how would we be able to prepare anyway? And if he presumes to speak as a protector of humanity, why would he throw away the lives of people who had just as much right to live as those he professes to be safeguarding in the name of expediency in Cerberus' experiments (the marines on Akuze etc.)? Were their lives less sacred and less valuable than those who would reap the 'benefits'  of such atrocities?

Of course, you could never truly prepare for unforseen threats (that is why, after all, they're unseen), but I think from a purely pragmatic approach, you could look at where the general strengths of each species lie and try to combine those traits to make something more robust. At least, that's what I'd do. Biotics for example, in the universe, is a relatively new development (at least to humanity) and it would make sense (at least, to me) to wanting to understand it, find our limitations and work to overcome them as soon as possible. Could this be a dead end, could this have no effect on whatever the unforseen threat could be? Possibly, but a Biotic with combat training would still be more capable than the same soldier standing side by side, but without biotic capabilities. I would think that it would be better to focus on gaining ever powerful Biotic capabilities than simply ignoring it (because the unforseen threat could just as likely be a violent uprising of a species they already know about as it is from any external threat).

As for the Akuze incident, perhaps it was reasoned that the marines would have the best chances of surviving? Perhaps Cerberus only became aware of the Thresher Maws existence after the initial colony was destroyed? Who knows. Corporal Toombs testimony can not be fully trusted as the only (or to rephrase: the entire) truth, as such our perceptions of the event are as clouded as his.

[Andorfiend]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
Americans speak the american language which happens to be English.

That's the funniest outlook on the linguistic matters I've ever seen. I wonder what the freaky Brits would think of it?
Also the Latin language isn't "roman". It is "latin". It was spoken in the area called Latio, when a bunch of marauding tramps of moot origins set up a basecamp and called it Rome. Then they wanted sex and abducted several Sabine women. Then... look, you'll have to pay me a fee if you want a history class. Or just go to wiki. It's quite accurate 99% of the time. One last thing. Roman Latin alphabet is actually a modified Greek alphabet. For the proof, take the word "alpha-bet[a]".

So nothing on topic then? You're just trolling? Thought so.

[Zulu_DFA]

Andorfiend wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
Americans speak the american language which happens to be English.

That's the funniest outlook on the linguistic matters I've ever seen. I wonder what the freaky Brits would think of it?
Also the Latin language isn't "roman". It is "latin". It was spoken in the area called Latio, when a bunch of marauding tramps of moot origins set up a basecamp and called it Rome. Then they wanted sex and abducted several Sabine women. Then... look, you'll have to pay me a fee if you want a history class. Or just go to wiki. It's quite accurate 99% of the time. One last thing. Roman Latin alphabet is actually a modified Greek alphabet. For the proof, take the word "alpha-bet[a]".

So nothing on topic then? You're just trolling? Thought so.

On topic: click here.
Off topic: you are not fully ready for a discussion involving Ancient Rome refernce.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 04:19 .

[Andorfiend]

Arijharn wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

But TIM isn't someone who is going to sacrifice anythign and anyone to save his own life. He's doing it to save humanity or to push humanity. Right or wrong, successful or not, he's got a purpose larger than himself, so he can't be the most morally 'incorrect' person there.

Do we have any evidence of that aside from TIM's own word? Didn't he also state that 'Cerberus is humanity'? And he obviously reguards most cerberus personel as expendable so that pretty much boils down to TIM doing anything and everything to save or push forward TIM. Actions speak louder than words and TIM damns himself with both.

We do have proof
1) He gives humanitarian aid through various charities (presumably) to mitigate crisis flash points (Horizon mission complete screen)
2) Cerberus owns various technological centres that give the Alliance military advantages. Note; Normandy ship design push (namely, he wanted to learn from the Turians (and not destroy them)). Cord-Hislop aerospace is a front company for Cerberus activities.
3) Admittedly unsuccessful; but both the Rachni and Thorian creeper programs were initiated as to have inexpensive shock troops. Right or Wrong, this would save human lives, and neither the Rachni nor Thorian's were considered prior to this as being particularly sentient.

Not quite proof because I'm unsure (so I didn't put it in directly); but I believe Shephard relates to Jacob directly after (or during) his loyalty mission that 'Cerberus ships' can pick up the survivors of Acting Captain Ronald Taylor.

Also, I'm pretty sure that 'reguards most cerberus personel as expendable so that pretty much boils down to TIM doing anything and everything to save or push forward TIM' as being a logical fallacy. Why would Cerberus personnel being considered 'expendable' automatically mean that it saves or push's forward TIM (reminder, you put this position forward, so you'll have to explain your reasoning).

Humanitarian aid I'll grant you though I'm inclined to bet that TIM allocates that out of the propaganda budget.

Cerberus diverts hundreds of billions of dollars from the Alliance as well as personel and materiel. If TIM didn't keep getting in the way we'd probably be much farther along. We also know TIM keeps the very best tech for Cerberus. I.E. Himself.

The super soldier experiments are a prime example of TIM showing both his hand and his stupidity. The Creepers are the hands of a telepathic lifeform that can enslave humans with airborn spores. The prudent thing to do would have been to nuke the Thorian from orbit, not try to turn in into cheap labor. The Rachni were a Starfaring species. Of course they were sentient. The use of either species was terribly stupid from the get-go. Secondly the argument falls flat on it's face. Shock troops, especially poorly controlled one are, by definition, an offensive weapon, not a defensive one. Who was TIM planning to invade? As the Collector attacks show if you realy want to defend your colonies you need to control the skies. If TIM really cared about protecting humanity he'd be spending his money on anti-ship defenses.

And I already gave the full argement about TIM's agenda. He claims to want to advance humanity. Then he defines Cerberus to be humanity. Fine, TIM wants to advance Cerberus. His actions show that he considers every member of Cerberus (including his top lieutenant Miranda) except himself to be expendable. See it? He wants to serve humanity, but when push comes to shove humanity just means Cerberus, and the only part of Cerberus worth saving is TIM. Ergo at the end of the day TIM wants to advance TIM. Nothing more.  Humanitarians, by and large, don't advocate the torture of children.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 31 mars 2010 - 04:23 .

[Arijharn]

Andorfiend wrote...
Humanitarian aid I'll grant you though I'm inclined to bet that TIM allocates that out of the propaganda budget.

It's irrelevant even if he does do it out of a 'propaganda,' he still does it which is therefore more than those that don't

Andorfiend wrote...
Cerberus diverts hundreds of billions of dollars from the Alliance as well as personel and materiel. If TIM didn't keep getting in the way we'd probably be much farther along. We also know TIM keeps the very best tech for Cerberus. I.E. Himself.

To 'divert' is not the same as to 'invest.' Did he keep the Normandy SR-1? Where does he divert anyway?

Andorfiend wrote...
The super soldier experiments are a prime example of TIM showing both his hand and his stupidity. The Creepers are the hands of a telepathic lifeform that can enslave humans with airborn spores. The prudent thing to do would have been to nuke the Thorian from orbit, not try to turn in into cheap labor. The Rachni were a Starfaring species. Of course they were sentient. The use of either species was terribly stupid from the get-go. Secondly the argument falls flat on it's face. Shock troops, especially poorly controlled one are, by definition, an offensive weapon, not a defensive one. Who was TIM planning to invade? As the Collector attacks show if you realy want to defend your colonies you need to control the skies. If TIM really cared about protecting humanity he'd be spending his money on anti-ship defenses.

The Prudent thing was to nuke the Thorian from orbit? There was a human colony there! The Thorian Creepers weren't categorically 'human' anymore as far as I could tell, they were basically husks.

The Rachni were considered extinct, that's assuming if at the time they were even aware they were that they were indeed the Rachni. Furthermore, Miranda states that the project was 'abandoned' after it was determined that they were sentinent. Besides, are Rachni sentinent, or is it just the Rachni Queen? Either way, if I was TIM, I wouldn't care in so far if it saved human lives.

Also, you can not win the war by 'holding ground' at some point you have to 'invade.' A specific threat is not necessary.

Andorfiend wrote...
And I already gave the full argement about TIM's agenda. He claims to want to advance humanity. Then he defines Cerberus to be humanity. Fine, TIM wants to advance Cerberus. His actions show that he considers every member of Cerberus (including his top lieutenant Miranda) except himself to be expendable. See it? He wants to serve humanity, but when push comes to shove humanity just means Cerberus, and the only part of Cerberus worth saving is TIM. Ergo at the end of the day TIM wants to advance TIM. Nothing more.  Humanitarians, by and large, don't advocate the torture of children.

Cerberus is humanity because he see's himself as being the only one looking out for human's best interests, and sometimes best interests involve sacrifices. Having said that then, I seriously doubt (and you still haven't provided proof) that he goes out of his way to sacrifice his agents. AFAIK, most agents are perfectly willing to die for their cause, which implies to me a 'noble cause,' even if you vehemently object.

Basically, your entire position is based on others preconceptions of TIM, not what TIM himself has projected.

Also, where has TIM 'advocated' the torture of children? Teltin was rogue.

[Destructo-Bot]

Japan and America were in a "Total War" state during World War 2.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war

Total war is a war of unlimited scope in which a belligerent engages in a mobilization of all available resources at their disposal, whether human, industrial, agricultural, military, natural, technological, or otherwise, in order to entirely destroy or render beyond use their rival's capacity to continue resistance. The practice of total war has been in use for centuries, but it was only in the middle to late 19th century that total war was identified by scholars as a separate class of warfare. In a total war, there is less and sometimes no differentiation between combatants and non-combatants (civilians) than in other conflicts, as nearly every human resource, civilians and soldiers alike, can be considered to be part of the belligerent effort.

[Andorfiend]

Arijharn wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
Cerberus diverts hundreds of billions of dollars from the Alliance as well as personel and materiel. If TIM didn't keep getting in the way we'd probably be much farther along. We also know TIM keeps the very best tech for Cerberus. I.E. Himself.

To 'divert' is not the same as to 'invest.' Did he keep the Normandy SR-1? Where does he divert anyway?

TIM has to date stolen the entire assets of whatever Cerberus had back when it was still an Alliance operation. Since then he has gotten funding from his pidgeons who would otherwise be investing in activities that might actually help mankind. And TIM didn't build the SR-1 he just used it as an espionage project. So he diverts money from legitimate human endevours to his own (Cerberus's) pockets. We know the drive core alone from the SR-1 could have funded a Heavy Cruiser or a thousand Fighter (or was in 10,000?). And the SR-2 is much larger. So if TIM hadn't sucked the resources to build it from somewhere the Alliance might be a couple of Heavy Cruisers ahead. That's not chump change. And that's not counting the multiple star bases he's built.

Imagine if the Arab countries took all the money they have spent on Al-Queda and other terrorist organizations over the years and actually invested them in something useful. That's what I'm saying.

Arijharn wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
The super soldier experiments are a prime example of TIM showing both his hand and his stupidity. The Creepers are the hands of a telepathic lifeform that can enslave humans with airborn spores. The prudent thing to do would have been to nuke the Thorian from orbit, not try to turn in into cheap labor. The Rachni were a Starfaring species. Of course they were sentient. The use of either species was terribly stupid from the get-go. Secondly the argument falls flat on it's face. Shock troops, especially poorly controlled one are, by definition, an offensive weapon, not a defensive one. Who was TIM planning to invade? As the Collector attacks show if you realy want to defend your colonies you need to control the skies. If TIM really cared about protecting humanity he'd be spending his money on anti-ship defenses.

The Prudent thing was to nuke the Thorian from orbit? There was a human colony there! The Thorian Creepers weren't categorically 'human' anymore as far as I could tell, they were basically husks.

TIM has already wiped out several human colonies, what does he care for another?

Arijharn wrote...
The Rachni were considered extinct, that's assuming if at the time they were even aware they were that they were indeed the Rachni. Furthermore, Miranda states that the project was 'abandoned' after it was determined that they were sentinent. Besides, are Rachni sentinent, or is it just the Rachni Queen? Either way, if I was TIM, I wouldn't care in so far if it saved human lives.

Miranda is full of it. The project was abandoned after the Rachni got away and killed all the researchers. And there was no followup, that was left to Shepard. If he hadn't wiped out those Rachni before they bootstrapped themselves into space it could easily have led to the total extinction of humanity either directly or indirectly.

Arijharn wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
And I already gave the full argement about TIM's agenda. He claims to want to advance humanity. Then he defines Cerberus to be humanity. Fine, TIM wants to advance Cerberus. His actions show that he considers every member of Cerberus (including his top lieutenant Miranda) except himself to be expendable. See it? He wants to serve humanity, but when push comes to shove humanity just means Cerberus, and the only part of Cerberus worth saving is TIM. Ergo at the end of the day TIM wants to advance TIM. Nothing more.  Humanitarians, by and large, don't advocate the torture of children.

Cerberus is humanity because he see's himself as being the only one looking out for human's best interests, and sometimes best interests involve sacrifices. Having said that then, I seriously doubt (and you still haven't provided proof) that he goes out of his way to sacrifice his agents. AFAIK, most agents are perfectly willing to die for their cause, which implies to me a 'noble cause,' even if you vehemently object.

Basically, your entire position is based on others preconceptions of TIM, not what TIM himself has projected.

Also, where has TIM 'advocated' the torture of children? Teltin was rogue.

Someone who sees himself as the only human with human interests at heart is pretty much catagorically insane, wouldn't you agree? I never said he goes out of his way to sacrifice his agents, where did that come from? He sure as hell doesn't balk at it however.

You think having agents willing to die for your cause makes it noble? You think suicide bombers who target civillians and hospital workers are noble? Gunmen who go into schools and places of worship are noble? Your definition of noble and mine seem to have nothing in common I'm afraid.

And my thoughts on TIM are based entirely on his actions. What have we seen TIM do? Destroy, murder and torture. Mostly the very humans he claims he wants to protect.

And you should read Ascension, TIM has a direct hand in the systematic abuse of a little girl and that's what led to that little tiff with the Quarians. If the Subject Zero project went rogue on TIM it's probably only in that they were merely killing the children instead of raping them first.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 31 mars 2010 - 05:52 .

[Redele]

I do not see Cerberus as inherently evil but a personification of power without oversight. Cerberus sees itself as humanities guardian and that "the ends justify the means" yet who asked for their protection? How many would be as tolerant of a group of real world defense contractors and wealthy families using a private army to promote their agenda in your name?
 
There is no denying that good was done during  ME2 in their name. Nor will I deny that both the Alliance and the Citadel Council were asleep at the helm. Neither of these two things excuse Cerberus from actions that would well be considered crimes against humanity.

Modifié par Redele, 31 mars 2010 - 06:04 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Redele wrote...

I do not see Cerberus as inherently evil but a personification of power without oversight. Cerberus sees itself as humanities guardian and that "the ends justify the means" yet who asked for their protection? How many would be as tolerant of a group of real world defense contractors and wealthy families using a private army to promote their agenda in your name?
 
There is no denying that good was done during  ME2 in their name. Nor will I deny that both the Alliance and the Citadel Council were asleep at the helm. Neither of these two things excuse Cerberus from actions that would well be considered crimes against humanity.

We don't know if there is or there is not any one who TIM reports to / coordinates "his agenda".

EDIT: It would make sense that TIM achieves certain results he can demonstrate to his "backers" in order to insure continuous funding. And thus there is some form of feedback between him and the rest of the Humanity.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 06:28 .

[Spartas Husky]

How about we agree to disagree??? eh?? eh??? hahaha.. nah nah keep going.

[Redele]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Redele wrote...

I do not see Cerberus as inherently evil but a personification of power without oversight. Cerberus sees itself as humanities guardian and that "the ends justify the means" yet who asked for their protection? How many would be as tolerant of a group of real world defense contractors and wealthy families using a private army to promote their agenda in your name?
 
There is no denying that good was done during  ME2 in their name. Nor will I deny that both the Alliance and the Citadel Council were asleep at the helm. Neither of these two things excuse Cerberus from actions that would well be considered crimes against humanity.

We don't know if there is or there is not any one who TIM reports to / coordinates "his agenda".

Early in the game there is a conversation with Mir. When asked who Cerberus answers too the response is "nobody" am too lazy to play the segment over to quote it exactly but suspect others will remember the conversation.

[Zulu_DFA]

Redele wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Redele wrote...

I do not see Cerberus as inherently evil but a personification of power without oversight. Cerberus sees itself as humanities guardian and that "the ends justify the means" yet who asked for their protection? How many would be as tolerant of a group of real world defense contractors and wealthy families using a private army to promote their agenda in your name?
 
There is no denying that good was done during  ME2 in their name. Nor will I deny that both the Alliance and the Citadel Council were asleep at the helm. Neither of these two things excuse Cerberus from actions that would well be considered crimes against humanity.

We don't know if there is or there is not any one who TIM reports to / coordinates "his agenda".

Early in the game there is a conversation with Mir. When asked who Cerberus answers too the response is "nobody" am too lazy to play the segment over to quote it exactly but suspect others will remember the conversation.

Edited my earlier post.

And Miranda seems not very bright or deliberately withholding some information. In any case she's just an operative. Not even "TIM's 2nd in command".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 06:27 .

[TheLostGenius]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...
Americans speak the american language which happens to be English.

That's the funniest outlook on the linguistic matters I've ever seen. I wonder what the freaky Brits would think of it?
Also the Latin language isn't "roman". It is "latin". It was spoken in the area called Latio, when a bunch of marauding tramps of moot origins set up a basecamp and called it Rome. Then they wanted sex and abducted several Sabine women. Then... look, you'll have to pay me a fee if you want a history class. Or just go to wiki. It's quite accurate 99% of the time. One last thing. Roman Latin alphabet is actually a modified Greek alphabet. For the proof, take the word "alpha-bet[a]".

Thats interesting. Never relealized the first two letter of the greek alpha(beta) was the name of our alphabet. Just didn't notice it. Thanks for the educational merit of your post!

[AntiChri5]

I just figured out how Cerberus is protecting humanity! So long as more humans are killed by Cerberus than aliens humanity is safe from aliens.

[Mycrus Ironfist]

Arijharn wrote...

Mukora wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Damn straight. Enjoy your coffin.

God, I really hope that if we ever discover other races you Cerberus lovers aren't in charge. Cerberus are ***holes, end of story.

Dear god, I hope blind idealists like you never get in charge, because you'll bend over as soon as someone disagrees with human goals because you don't want to alienate the... well, aliens.

End of story.

ROFL!!!!!!!

[Mycrus Ironfist]

Andorfiend wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

3th. I want more for me and for my close ones, than my neighbor does. I want more luck, better stuff or something. We all do, from simple things like a better....lawn to complex things like.....better houses or something. It is what drives us. To want more, to live better, at the expense of others, whether they are animals, plants or the like of us.

This "To want more, to live better," and this "at the expense of others," are unconnected thoughts. If everyone was solely concerned with advancing themselves by pushing down their neighbors, rather than by improving things for both of you then we would indeed still be living in caves and scratching our selves. But maybe you'd have a bigger pile of furs. Until someone kicked your ass and took them.
 

...remember the romans?

Help your neighbors neighbors succeed, so they help you take your neighbors.

Then help your new neighbor's neighbors, so you take them out next.

Those at your frontiers are enemies, help those behind your enemies, and keep moving.

Hell Romans were the perfect example of this.

Half right! The romans conquered people and made them romans. The conquered areas adopted Roman language, roman culture, roman technology and beliefs and gained Roman citizenship.

Eventually Romans forgot what it was to be Roman. They treated their foreign mercenaries as hired scum instead of as Romans in training. They became so corrupt that they no longer worked for the benefit of Rome but only themselves. And Rome fell.

Spartas Husky wrote...
You keep forgetting, and I keep saying it, I dont mean agenda personally, a groups agenda for god sake.

But here is the fundamental point where we disagree. You think believe the Cerberus propaganda that they are working for the benefit of Mankind. I think Cerberus is working for the benefit of Cerberus. Hell TIM even tells you that "Cerberus is humanity". And since he is pretty cavalier about the lives of his personel he also thinks Cerberus is TIM.

Get it? Every damm thing TIM does is for the benefit of TIM. When has he ever deliberately done anything that helped someone else more than it helped him? That's why he is a menace. That's why Kelly is a sucker when she sticks up for him in game.

You said earlier that there is no good and evil, just survival. Fine but even with that idea you still have a sliding scale of morality.

At the very bottom of that scale, the least moral person, is the coward. The man who will sacrifice anything and anyone to save his own life.
More moral is the average family man who will die to defend his wife and child.
Above that is the man who fights to defend his town and neighbors.
And it keeps going up.
Country.
Species or culture.
All intelligent life.

Shepard is the hero, the most moral man, because he is fighting for the survival of every being in the galaxy. Less moral than him is the Council who refuse to face a threat outside of their own smaller world. Less moral than that is the Cerberus grunt who thinks every thinking being that isn't human can go hang. And way down at the bottom, the most 'evil' of them all is TIM, who only cares about TIM.

A Green Beret is a good man reguardless of the blood of his hands because he dies so that others who are not his kin but his countrymen can live in peace and safety.

probably the best anti-cerberus post i've seen so far...