701 réponses à ce sujet

[RyrineaNara]

None have help look at Iran for example of America meddling in there affairs. Know we have a guy would will go to any lengthens for his goals.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 28 mars 2010 - 12:33 .

[kraidy1117]

RyrineaNara wrote...

None have help look at Iran for example of America meddling in there affairs. Know we have a guy would will go to any lengthens for his goals.

Don't bring real life problems into a video game conflict.

[SimonTheFrog]

Shandepared wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Please re-read the sentence. Take particular notice of the word "show". Then remember that i am talking about ME1. There is no reference to "advance humankind and protect human interests" in ME1 plus we never "see" any good result coming from their experiments. 

I agree that experiments don't necessarily have any good impact right away. But we also don't see any good results from earlier Cerberus experiments. It would have been so easy for BioWare to give as a more complex and ambiguous impression about Cerberus (still talking about ME1) if they only had wanted to. Just one NPC that justifies the experiments, one console with some interesting message about their noble goals, one message from Hackett that helps us understand their motivation. But there is nothing in that direction. They are simply put there as the "bad guys". 

Okay, I suppose that is fair enough. Though I think it is worth noting that it was Cerberus who pushed the Alliance to develop the Normandy. Gaining us insight into turian technologies as well as getting us the most advanced ship in the galaxy. I would say that is the best example of their organization successfully advancing human interests. I also think their ability to find the derelict Reaper and their dedication to stopping the Collectors ought to mean something. Not to mention they brought Shepard back.

Which is all stuff we learn in ME2.

BioWare wastes quite a LOT of screen-time in ME2 to tell the player how everything he learned in ME1 about the organization was only one piece of the puzzle. Why wasted? Because the transition could have been very smooth and elegant if they had considered it better from the beginning or if they had made up a new organization. The galaxy is big enough for several mystical organizations, no need to pick the only one that sofar was dumb and evil and retcon them into "an organization with a checkered past". 

Sorry, that was a bit polemic. 

[RyrineaNara]

kraidy1117 wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

None have help look at Iran for example of America meddling in there affairs. Know we have a guy would will go to any lengthens for his goals.

Don't bring real life problems into a video game conflict.

I was just giving that as a exmaple.

[DaeJi]

People actually think that Cerberus isn't evil?







My head hurts.

[RyrineaNara]

DaeJi wrote...

People actually think that Cerberus isn't evil?



My head hurts.

My head hurt as well reading that crap they were saying lol.

[kraidy1117]

DaeJi wrote...

People actually think that Cerberus isn't evil?



My head hurts.

My head hurts from idiots who think Cerberus is evil.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Shandepared wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

People actually think that Cerberus isn't evil?



My head hurts.

They aren't nice people but they do good work towards a noble goal.

Everyone thinks they're the good guys. Hitler and Stalin for instance thought they were doing the right thing.

Modifié par drunken pyromaniac, 28 mars 2010 - 12:48 .

[Weiser_Cain]

RyrineaNara wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

I wanted to get away from Cerberus the whole game. There should have been a way to get off that ship when you went to the council!

Why? The council does not beleive you nor do they beleive the Reapers exist. Also the Alliance only moves there ass hwne rumors that Shepard is alive and is working with Cerberus. Both the Council and the Alliance are useless. Shame the one group that wants to defeat the Reapers are pro-humans.....

I don't need the council to believe me I just need my Specter status back. I don't even need a ship. I have resources and friends. Deciding what type of ship I wanted and working to get it would have been FUN. and it would have added even more replay value to the game.
[/i]

I agree it would have added more replay value to the the game, if that was the choice in the games.

Well gues what, then go work for Bioware and program it. Video games are very hard to make and expansive.

Yet, I know that I'm majoring in Video game design.

I dropped out, I just can't work and go to school at the same time. I don't think he was offering a serious suggestion though.

[SimonTheFrog]

Shandepared wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Sorry, that was a bit polemic. 

It's alright. Ultimately I don't think ME2's plot did the first game justice. It screams "new team that wants to make their own mark on the franchise instead of building off of established ideas". Not that I can blame them for that and they still made a great game.

I think that the plot suffered the most (just my feeling, really) from two decisions:
1.) To add the "Dirty Dozen" feeling, i.e. the band of cool mercenaries and specialists, all somehow gritty and semi-legal (with the exception of Tali and Samara). This might looks nice on concept papers but their are tons of strings attached that didn't work out, really. Cerberus is a means to make this "gang" possible.
2.) Make the darker "End justifies the means" - philosophy one of the top subjects. Again, Cerberus is the poster child for that attitude (in ME2... not in ME1 as far as we thought back then) . But this attitude is pretty much a contradiction to being paragon. So, if you want to "roleplay" being paragon, all you get is a kick in the quad (Edit: and no, it's not enough to give the "alot of bs on the line"-answer in the end. Not after 20 hours of gameplay). 

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 28 mars 2010 - 12:53 .

[TheLostGenius]

kraidy1117 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

People actually think that Cerberus isn't evil?



My head hurts.

They are extremely unethical. Do I inhumane experiments on people and aliens, are treacherous to the Alliance, yet claim to have humanities noble goals as their virtues. Cerberus/TIM will likely either be your ally or one of your main enemies in ME3.

Cereberus is totally evil in ME1. In ME2 you are brought back to life by the and Cereberus operatives tell you that Cereberus has good goals, or humanities best interests in mind. More like Cereberus's best interests in mind, with Emperor TIM using Reaper technology to dominate the Council and human ALliance. Council Anderson tells you you cannot trust Cereberus, he is probably the most honorable and trustworthy character in the entire game.


My head hurts from idiots who think Cerberus is evil.

[hex23]

You can look at Cerberus one of two ways.



One, TIM co-signed everything they did, and that makes him and his organization extremely shady/evil.



Or two, he didn't co-sign any of the "bad" stuff, and has no idea what his own people are doing.



Neither option is good really. He's either evil or he's clueless. EDI tells you "TIM keeps the number of Cerberus cells and their operations small so he can personally oversee them". So that means he either personally oversees the terrible experiments, or he's so incompetent he can't keep track of what a limited number of cells are doing.

[phatpat63]

DaeJi wrote...

People actually think that Cerberus isn't evil?



My head hurts.

It's just the two really, the downing effect in action. That or they're just trolls who just make ridiculous post so people will reply and they can feel like someone is paying attention to them.

[kraidy1117]

hex23 wrote...

You can look at Cerberus one of two ways.

One, TIM co-signed everything they did, and that makes him and his organization extremely shady/evil.

Or two, he didn't co-sign any of the "bad" stuff, and has no idea what his own people are doing.

Neither option is good really. He's either evil or he's clueless. EDI tells you "TIM keeps the number of Cerberus cells and their operations small so he can personally oversee them". So that means he either personally oversees the terrible experiments, or he's so incompetent he can't keep track of what a limited number of cells are doing.

As Miranda says, Cerberus gives me my resources and tells me do it. TIM does not say how to do it, just get it done as long as it gets results. However somethings like the Jack incident, the Acension project and the Rachni project went to hell because those cells went rouge and did bad things making TIM lose alot of money and time (Jack and Gillian where two projects that hurt TIM big time)

[hex23]

Oh and as somebody else pointed out, Cerberus as a whole seems border line retarded. Virtually every single plan they come up with somehow blows up in their face. We could make a case for them being extremely dumb and not even have to nitpick about whether they are good or evil.

[TheLostGenius]

hex23 wrote...

You can look at Cerberus one of two ways.

One, TIM co-signed everything they did, and that makes him and his organization extremely shady/evil.

Or two, he didn't co-sign any of the "bad" stuff, and has no idea what his own people are doing.

Neither option is good really. He's either evil or he's clueless. EDI tells you "TIM keeps the number of Cerberus cells and their operations small so he can personally oversee them". So that means he either personally oversees the terrible experiments, or he's so incompetent he can't keep track of what a limited number of cells are doing.

In the end, TIM will make Saren look like Mickey Mouse in comparison. <3

[kraidy1117]

hex23 wrote...

Oh and as somebody else pointed out, Cerberus as a whole seems border line retarded. Virtually every single plan they come up with somehow blows up in their face. We could make a case for them being extremely dumb and not even have to nitpick about whether they are good or evil.

The Acension project failed because of Paul and Pels betrayel and Golos lust for revenage on the fleet.

[TheLostGenius]

hex23 wrote...

Oh and as somebody else pointed out, Cerberus as a whole seems border line retarded. Virtually every single plan they come up with somehow blows up in their face. We could make a case for them being extremely dumb and not even have to nitpick about whether they are good or evil.

They aren't as stupid as the Quarian's or the Krogans, thats for sure. Luckily the F'ed up experiment with Toomas to pave the way for Commander Sheperd.

[hex23]

kraidy1117 wrote...

As Miranda says, Cerberus gives me my resources and tells me do it. TIM does not say how to do it, just get it done as long as it gets results. However somethings like the Jack incident, the Acension project and the Rachni project went to hell because those cells went rouge and did bad things making TIM lose alot of money and time (Jack and Gillian where two projects that hurt TIM big time)

This is really simple.

If he's so appaled at what these "rogue cells" are doing why the hell does he keep handing out resources and telling them "get it done by any means necessary"? Then he has the nerve to act  upset when he finds out *GASP* they did some shady things to get the job done. Of course they did, as a leader you didn't give them any guidelines.

So again, he's either evil or a terrible/dumb leader. Doesn't really matter which.

[Jonathan Shepard]

hex23 wrote...

You can look at Cerberus one of two ways.

One, TIM co-signed everything they did, and that makes him and his organization extremely shady/evil.

Or two, he didn't co-sign any of the "bad" stuff, and has no idea what his own people are doing.

Neither option is good really. He's either evil or he's clueless. EDI tells you "TIM keeps the number of Cerberus cells and their operations small so he can personally oversee them". So that means he either personally oversees the terrible experiments, or he's so incompetent he can't keep track of what a limited number of cells are doing.

I think he knew what was going on-- I just don't think he knew quite how brutal his cells were becoming in regard to their experimental victims though. But the codex says that while Shepard was dead, there WAS a change in Cerberus policy slightly, speculating there may have been a change of power. TIM might've taken over, and then as his first project started up Project Lazarus. It seems TIM was near the top, but only became head honcho recently. Of course, maybe he's just a big fat liar. 

The latter makes more sense.

[Wild Still]

Cerberus is constructed around plausible deniability, an organization that was built from the ground up to do criminal, underhanded and even monstrous things. They use cells, a common method to keep individual units within a whole from seeing the actions of their whole organization, if any cell meets with spectacular failure the rest of the organization can then claim it went "rogue" thus mitigating any individual within the company from seeing the amoral indecency of the whole. If TIM is as involved as Miranda says then how come he didn't know about the kids being massacred, in the subject zero lab? Simple, he knew, he knew about shipments he may not have known the operational specifics but he knew they were pouring credits into slavers, that means they were buying an awful lot of meat.

Nah, Cerberus and TIM are properly evil or TIM is the single least intelligent thing to ever manage to sit in a chair and not drown in drool.

[kraidy1117]

hex23 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

As Miranda says, Cerberus gives me my resources and tells me do it. TIM does not say how to do it, just get it done as long as it gets results. However somethings like the Jack incident, the Acension project and the Rachni project went to hell because those cells went rouge and did bad things making TIM lose alot of money and time (Jack and Gillian where two projects that hurt TIM big time)

This is really simple.

If he's so appaled at what these "rogue cells" are doing why the hell does he keep handing out resources and telling them "get it done by any means necessary"? Then he has the nerve to act  upset when he finds out *GASP* they did some shady things to get the job done. Of course they did, as a leader you didn't give them any guidelines.

So again, he's either evil or a terrible/dumb leader. Doesn't really matter which.

Only a couple of experiments have failed and they where not rouge. The one on Azuse (spelling) was a succes because Cerberus got there reserch on Maws and had a a life subject matter. It is wrong? Yes it is, but it still had vital reserch. As for the Rachni, no one knew what would happen with them, it was a huge risk and it failed. The husk project was a succes because Cerberus studied how a human became a husk and what happens. It is disgusting, but it is for the greater good. The Thorian creepers failed because Shepard broke into that base. Jack and the Acension project failed because of betrayal. The Lazarus project did not realy fail, even if Shepard destorys the base. They still defetaed the Collectors and that was the point of that project.

They are not good, but not evil because they are doing stuff for the greater good.

[kraidy1117]

Wild Still wrote...

Cerberus is constructed around plausible deniability, an organization that was built from the ground up to do criminal, underhanded and even monstrous things. They use cells, a common method to keep individual units within a whole from seeing the actions of their whole organization, if any cell meets with spectacular failure the rest of the organization can then claim it went "rogue" thus mitigating any individual within the company from seeing the amoral indecency of the whole. If TIM is as involved as Miranda says then how come he didn't know about the kids being massacred, in the subject zero lab? Simple, he knew, he knew about shipments he may not have known the operational specifics but he knew they were pouring credits into slavers, that means they were buying an awful lot of meat.
Nah, Cerberus and TIM are properly evil or TIM is the single least intelligent thing to ever manage to sit in a chair and not drown in drool.

Wrong, Cerberus was a black ops part of the Aliance that did reaserch for the Alliance. They broke apart some time before ME events.