23 réponses à ce sujet

[Gorath Alpha]

                         When the PSU is faulty, it doesn't tell you so
           
One of the least intuitive problems to track down is a bad power supply, and it may even still be "new".  There are more JUNK units for sale than good ones, by a factor of thousands of bad brands and literally only about a dozen quality names to rely on (here are six, though, off the top of my head: Enermax, Fortron, OCZ, PC Power and Cooling, Seasonic, and Sparkle).

Over time, all power supplies degrade, only slightly at first, and then, as the running hours build up, more rapidly.  A good brand 500 "watt" unit that runs 24-7 for months may lose so much efficiency in just two years that it can only match to a new 420 watt unit (16%).  Of course, a lot of experienced PC people make it a regular habit to over-spec, and if we "need" 450 watts now, we get 600 watts instead.

I've put the first appearance of the word "watts" in quotes because it's actually a poor way to specify things.  The 12 Volt circuit's amperage is the most important measurement.  This applies particularly to the component most likely to demand a lot of amps = your gaming video card.  When the video card isn't getting enough current, it will shut down, and the display may flash a message about no video signal.  Typically, the system will shut down somewhat later, if the gamer doesn't force a reboot with the reset switch. 

Old, or low quality, power supplies become more inefficient as they get warmer, and the closer they get to maxing out every amp they can supply, the hotter they get, which reduces efficiency still further.  There is no feedback sensor on any power supply that I know about, other than on the main fan on some of them, and few mainboard designs that take advantage of that single sensor.  The system is not aware of how hot the PSU is getting, and thus, you cannot check the system's health reports to see about power supply heat (but you can see under-voltage circuits that way sometimes).

One of the easiest tests you can make comparing good PSUs with poor ones is how much they weigh.  An Okia "500 watt" unit probably doesn't even weigh as much as the 250 watt PSU from a quality company!  I bought a new case (Aspire) that came with an Okie "400" watt that weighed less than a thousand grams, while a 400 watt Cooler Master PSU weighed 1990 grams, exactly twice as much.

Half a dozen web pages have calculator tools for making estimates of the max total wattage that a given system might possibly use.  The better ones are part of the site for better brands of PSUs.  I think Corsair and PC Power & Cooling have them (you can add Corsair to the list of six I named above),

Another reason for sticking with quality brands is the bad habit that only the cheap ones occasionally demonstrate.  All of them are much more likely to give up the ghost in a cloud of acrid smoke and a lot of bright sparks than do good ones, and only the cheap ones can fail so catastrohically that their own demise releases a killing current surge that damages or destroys other (expensive) components.   

I've published this (again) by itself, even though an almost identical addition was included in one of my "reference" articles in the Dragon Age Tech Forum, when I wasn't able to find that previous addition quickly enough to suit me. 

G. 

[joey_mork84]

I take it this is in response to a few bad posts in the forums lately.. I saw them as well and gotta say, this should definitely clear things up..



And since you are on the PSU subject, which of the fairly cheap, "decent" quality PSU brands would you recommend? I'm on a budget and it takes me forever to choose between pc part brands based on price. In the future, I assume I should be able to spend 120-180 dollars comfortably and am looking for a 550-600 watt psu. All I need to go on is a good brand, then I can do the rest of the research to find a cheap one with sufficient wattage. If that price range is too low, I imagine I can go slightly higher, if need be. Thanks for any help on this, Gorath.

[Gorath Alpha]

One of our newest noobs was complaining about something that could be caused either by a power supply supplying too little amperage, or a video card overheating. I scanned through the two main references and missed seeing the added message similar to this current one, and ended up just giving a link to a thread about overheated video cards.

(http://social.biowar...33303/1#1933380)

I'll get back to this after dinner, kinda late. My kid and his lady are taking me out to dinner in an hour, and it's been a nice enough day, I''m in cutoffs, beat up old sweatshirt, sandals, etc -- been trimming a hedge, pruning some garden bushes, etc.

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx

That's a Seasonic 650 "Gold" at $20 off, for $160. 

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 27 mars 2010 - 10:33 .

[joey_mork84]

LMAO I'm still in my pj's haha.. Thanks for the help and I hope you enjoy your dinner!

[Gorath Alpha]

My birthday is in a couple of days.  He wanted to take me out to celebrate that event, we went somewhere that I've not been to in 15-20 years or so, to see if it was as good as memory was telling me that it was.  And I did enjoy myself there.  Great Food, thank you for the encouragement! 

Incidentally, this next is for a 620 watt Seasonic "Bronze" model at $100:

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx

G

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 28 mars 2010 - 10:52 .

[joey_mork84]

I've heard a lot of good things about Seasonic on various sites, so naturally it was one of the top brands I've been looking at lately lol.. A friend suggested Coolmax the other day and I about punched him for it lol.. I know first hand that they are crap. I am checking out several different Seasonics now, tho. Thanks for the links! And I'm glad you enjoyed your dinner!

[Gorath Alpha]

I've never heard anything good about any but just a singleton out of the many PSUs with "Max" in the name, and Enermax was it.  Chiefmax, Coolmax, and Raidmax, TTBOMK, are all garbage brands. 

[Eurypterid]

You could also look at This Corsair HX 650W PSU from NCIXUS (I buy almost all my parts from NCIX Canada. 52 amps on the 12 volt rail, 80+ Bronze certified, 7 year warranty, and on sale for 116 bucks.



A good site for power supply reviews is jonnyGURU (although the HX650 that I linked is not reviewed there).

[adrichardson]

You'll not heard a bad word about Corsair from me - my TX750's great (60a single 12v rail).



If you can afford it, go for the TX series as it's a single 12v rail design (I won't bore you with the technical reasons for single rail being better than multi-rail). You can actually get a TX750 on NewEgg for $99 at the moment, which is real bargain.



http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817139006



If your budget won't stretch that far, the TX650 is $79.



http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817139005

[joey_mork84]

I don't have the money atm, I'm thinking more for future purchases for a couple of pc's I'm building. But thanks for the tips! lol

[Gorath Alpha]

This came up in the Mass Effect forum (at least the choices of brands did), and I decided it was time to bump it here.

G

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 21 avril 2010 - 11:05 .

[ParasiteX]

Heres a great PSU calculator btw LINK. The free version is very detailed, and if you pay for the pro account (a day pass costs $2) it will even calculate the amperage needed.

But overall you cant go wrong with a Corsair PSU. Zalman and Tagan are also great brands.

Modifié par ParasiteX, 21 avril 2010 - 02:06 .

[Gorath Alpha]

A number of the power supply companies themselves now include such calculators on their sites, but WATTS remain a poor choice for making the final choices.  Available amperage is a far more valuable number. 

[ParasiteX]

The psu calc i linked does calculate amperage if you subscribe to a pro account there. a Day pass sub costs only $2. It also supports SLI and Crossfire setups which are major power drain setups

[MingWolf]

This link here is also pretty handy: http://web.aanet.com...P/psucalc.php.  Helps calculate the load on your rails with plenty of headroom.  Thing it lacks is the latest CPUs and GPUs.  You'd need to know a bit about the specs of your hardware to compensate, such as TDP on your CPU, core and memory clock of your video card, and the average power draw of your video card.  Not the greatest, but handy nonetheless.  Plus its free.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Well, I got a Thermaltake Toughpower 850W Modular and it's running fine. Being a PC Builder/Enthusiast I'm pretty sure my crash issues are to do with the 1.03 patch and not my PSU. Being that 1.02a works without a single crash and that all my other games NEVER crash...like at all.

[Gorath Alpha]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Well, I got a Thermaltake Toughpower 850W Modular and it's running fine. Being a PC Builder/Enthusiast I'm pretty sure my crash issues are to do with the 1.03 patch and not my PSU. Being that 1.02a works without a single crash and that all my other games NEVER crash...like at all.

While I don't think of Thermaltake in the same terms as "Coolmax" or Okia, as extra cheap / shoddy, I've had failures with three of them in recent years.  Cheap fans went out on two, and while the 420 Thermaltake that blew up wasn't priced "cheaply", it did go out in a cloud of smoke, sparks, and stink!  

There is a new message thread about a "display" shutting down that caused me to look this one up to bump it to the top. 

G

[Dragon Age1103]

Gorath Alpha wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Well, I got a Thermaltake Toughpower 850W Modular and it's running fine. Being a PC Builder/Enthusiast I'm pretty sure my crash issues are to do with the 1.03 patch and not my PSU. Being that 1.02a works without a single crash and that all my other games NEVER crash...like at all.

While I don't think of Thermaltake in the same terms as "Coolmax" or Okia, as extra cheap / shoddy, I've had failures with three of them in recent years.  Cheap fans went out on two, and while the 420 Thermaltake that blew up wasn't priced "cheaply", it did go out in a cloud of smoke, sparks, and stink!  

There is a new message thread about a "display" shutting down that caused me to look this one up to bump it to the top. 

G

 I love thermaltake! Still have 2 older 750W PSU's form them in other comps running just fine after 4+ years.
I'm running a Corsair HX850W since they are hands down one of the best tier2, tier 1 PSU makers out there! Corsair, Thermaltake, Antec, SilverStone, all awesome & reliable brands. If you're in the US newegg.com is a great place to find deals & usually free shipping.

[GPA_Nemesis]

I'm using a Corsair 750TX as well, as is a friend of mine. No issues yet. The PSU is the one part people forget about, and it's really the most critical. Add me to the list that recommend the 750TX. Only downside is no modular jacks, so it may end up looking a lil cluttered in there. No issue with cable lengths though, and I'm running CrossfireX with two cards.

-Nem

[Caralampio]

Gorath kindly referred me to this thread. I'm having occasional, random reboots after I installed Awakening. Up to now, they only have happened while playing Awakening. My video card temp is 72° tops while playing, MoBo 34°. As they say, there's no way of knowing the temp of the PSU, but my VX450W Corsair, which I installed less than 6 months ago, is barely warm to the touch (I don't know if that means anything). I don't remember the specs but I recall that it was sufficient for my system when I shopped for it.



I've noticed that the UPS clacks simultaneously with the reboots. However, it also clacks randomly all day without any reboot. The UPS is new, but the previous also clacked.



I had assumed that the clacks were due to power spikes or slumps. I even assumed the reboots were due to power loss and that's why I replaced the UPS, since it wasn't keeping my system on when power is off anymore. However, I wised up when I noticed nothing else in the house was going off when my computer did. I also realized that cut power would simply turn the computer off, not reboot it.

[adrichardson]

It could be one of a number of thigs.



What are the rest of your system specs? A 450w PSU is on the low end for most modern setups, so it's a likely culprit.



What are your CPU temps?



You might want to remove the UPS from the loop, just to ensure it's not causing problems.

[Caralampio]

System Information
------------------
Time of this report: 6/5/2010, 17:07:32
       Machine name: EDWARD
   Operating System: Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3 (2600.xpsp_sp3_gdr.100216-1514)
           Language: Spanish (Regional Setting: Spanish)
System Manufacturer: Dell Inc.               
       System Model: Dell DXP051                 
               BIOS: Phoenix ROM BIOS PLUS Version 1.10 A04
          Processor: Intel® Pentium® D CPU 2.80GHz (2 CPUs)
             Memory: 3070MB RAM
          Page File: 668MB used, 4318MB available
        Windows Dir: C:\\\\\\\\WINDOWS
    DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
     DxDiag Version: 5.03.2600.5512 32bit Unicode

        Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT 
     Manufacturer: NVIDIA
        Chip type: GeForce 9800 GT
         DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
       Device Key: Enum\\\\\\\\PCI\\\\\\\\VEN_10DE&DEV_0614&SUBSYS_0E7919F1&REV_A2
   Display Memory: 1024.0 MB
     Current Mode: 1920 x 1080 (32 bit) (60Hz)
-------------
Sound Devices
-------------
            Description: SigmaTel Audio
 Default Sound Playback: Yes
 Default Voice Playback: Yes
            Hardware ID: HDAUDIO\\\\\\\\FUNC_01&VEN_8384&DEV_7680&SUBSYS_102801A7&REV_1032
        Manufacturer ID: 1
             Product ID: 100
                   Type: WDM

HW Monitor detects two temps, one is the card and the other I assumed was the MoBo but it might be the CPU, the temp reported is 34-39°.

Edit: BTW I'm looking right now at two corsair psu, 650tx and 750tx, which would suffice and wouldn't I risk incurring in what was said in the OP (excessive power). And, extreme PS calculator gave me a 321 watts diagnostic.

Modifié par Caralampio, 05 juin 2010 - 11:56 .

[Gorath Alpha]

It is not exactly possible to have "too much" power supply capacity.  The Geforce 9800 all by itself, is going to need the kind of 12 V amperage that a quality PSU rated at 430 to 450 watts puts out. 

Has your existing PSU been documented here yet? 

[Caralampio]

Gorath Alpha wrote...

Has your existing PSU been documented here yet? 

Umm... What do you mean by that? Its a VX450W Corsair.