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[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

MasterMegatron wrote...

Most species find the Citadel and use it as their governmental center. Come through there, kill the government, and nab the most recent census and tech data. While the galaxy is still reeling, kill more. It's the perfect surprise attack.

The Citadel - and its census data - could have been easily seized once the Reaper fleet arrived in the Serpent Nebula.

Not before people became aware of them.  The Citadel jump allows the Reapers immediate access to the data as well as control over the relays so they know where to strike, how hard, and have no fear of the enemy receiving enforcements before anybody knows what the hell is going on(got ahead of myself there).  Also faster.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 28 mars 2010 - 03:05 .

[UnsungStaghelm]

What I think: the Reapers are playing dead. They're pretending to be weaker than they are.



They only attack once civilizations are advanced enough, right? So their technology is built on the technology of their conquered peoples.



Why not LET humanity advance? Do you think the Reapers left the Collector base practically defenseless on purpose? No--they WANTED humanity to salvage it. Think about it: the space around the collector base was littered with the corpses of ships. There's no way that those little drones (there was like, what? Five of them?) would take out a fleet that was undoubtedly sent in there before.



And manipulating the Geth? Why bother with pawns when you're the Queen times ten? Better to let humanity discover the Reaper technology, advance on it, and then conquer them.



Because, you see, the Reapers are looters. That's what they do. They rampage through the galaxy, sacrificing humans, and stealing their tech. In the first game, Liara commented how "clean" the galaxy was in terms of evidence.



This would be the most interesting storyline, anyway. At least to me.



And as for the time it would take? Didn't Shepherd/Joker look out the window in the very last scene as the shot cut to the Reaper army approaching the Milky Way?

[DPSSOC]

UnsungStaghelm wrote...

Why not LET humanity advance? Do you think the Reapers left the Collector base practically defenseless on purpose? No--they WANTED humanity to salvage it. Think about it: the space around the collector base was littered with the corpses of ships. There's no way that those little drones (there was like, what? Five of them?) would take out a fleet that was undoubtedly sent in there before.

Unless those ships went in one by one over the course of the past 50,000 years.  To provide an example not far from where I live there's an old quarry that is littered with destroyed bicycles, and while they're all there now not all of them got there at the same time.

[UnsungStaghelm]

DPSSOC wrote...

UnsungStaghelm wrote...

Why not LET humanity advance? Do you think the Reapers left the Collector base practically defenseless on purpose? No--they WANTED humanity to salvage it. Think about it: the space around the collector base was littered with the corpses of ships. There's no way that those little drones (there was like, what? Five of them?) would take out a fleet that was undoubtedly sent in there before.

Unless those ships went in one by one over the course of the past 50,000 years.  To provide an example not far from where I live there's an old quarry that is littered with destroyed bicycles, and while they're all there now not all of them got there at the same time.

Well, here's another interesting thought: what if those ships are prothean? They'd have a Reaper-like IFF. What if that station was their last stand?

But that's beside the point. They left it relatively undefended, and it's not like the Reapers didn't know this, because a Reaper was controlling Harbinger.

[Mcjon01]

UnsungStaghelm wrote...

Why not LET humanity advance? Do you think the Reapers left the Collector base practically defenseless on purpose? No--they WANTED humanity to salvage it. Think about it: the space around the collector base was littered with the corpses of ships. There's no way that those little drones (there was like, what? Five of them?) would take out a fleet that was undoubtedly sent in there before.

You forget that none of those ships had a Reaper IFF.  Without access to the more accurate targeting protocols, most of those ships probably ended up missing the tiny bubble of habitability around the Collector base, and got trashed by the environment.  I imagine the accretion disc of a supermassive black hole is a rather poor place to pilot your ship, after all.

[Weiser_Cain]

I have a theory that all reaper based tech is a liability.

[Asheer_Khan]

I think that by releasing ME 2 Bioware did shoot themself in feet by creating very difficult to explain Reapers situation.

As Vigil in ME 1 explain Citadel have all keys for entire Mass Relay network and that's by during every cycle Citadel was first attacked target, once Reapers secured Citadel they can keep every species separated from themself and practicly defenceless.



Without Citadel Reaper fleet will be under constant risk of sudden attack when Citadel ships will have free access to realys and can perform because of that pretty nice guerrilla war.

For example one of such fleets can use relay, attack reapers, jump back to relay which will be immidietly shut down by Citadel control leaving reapers behind practicly powerless.



One more thing is that reapers power sources are not infinite since they fall in hibernation after each cycle.

So to conclude... Citadel is still absolute MUST BE attack target for Reapers if they even think about another harvest.



However that's theory... what will be practice is a totally different subject since Bioware already thrown 90% of ME 1 story out of the window.

[doodlesam123]

What if instead of Mass Effect 3 being about destroying the reapers, maybe it could take part AFTER the reaper invasion. Imagine the first scene in the game being the reapers launching an attack on the citadel, and on earth/other planets. Then we take control of shepard, and the whole story is trying to rescue as many colonies of possible and rebuilding the galaxy. In the past two games all we've heard is "the reapers are coming". what if it actuelly became  reality in the next game.
While the reapers believe they have won they desert the galaxy back into dark space. And the remainder of various species are left to rebuild and discover a way to either destroy the reapers in time for their next harvest or find a way to permanently trap the reapers in dark space.
I know its likely to never happen..but it would be different to the formula we've had in the last two games. How about the reapers actuelly win?
It would mean a lot more epic scenes/battles...

It would also be intresting if Shepard and his team/an army or two, fled out of the galaxy while the reapers were invading. Maybe they could find a way to trap them in our actuel galaxy?

Just throwing these ideas out there...

[wolf99000]

Nightwriter wrote...

MasterMegatron wrote...

Most species find the Citadel and use it as their governmental center. Come through there, kill the government, and nab the most recent census and tech data. While the galaxy is still reeling, kill more. It's the perfect surprise attack.

The Citadel - and its census data - could have been easily seized once the Reaper fleet arrived in the Serpent Nebula.

Sovereign went out of his way to seize it now, when he was on his own, which seems like an unnecessary risk.

has virgil said once they had control of the citadel they shut down all the relays so that would make you think they need the citadel for that so it makes sense there first target is the citadel not only does that stop the races making a cordinated stand you take out there govening council who would be the ones to lead it

[wolf99000]

Nightwriter wrote...

MasterMegatron wrote...

Most species find the Citadel and use it as their governmental center. Come through there, kill the government, and nab the most recent census and tech data. While the galaxy is still reeling, kill more. It's the perfect surprise attack.

The Citadel - and its census data - could have been easily seized once the Reaper fleet arrived in the Serpent Nebula.

Sovereign went out of his way to seize it now, when he was on his own, which seems like an unnecessary risk.

has virgil said once they had control of the citadel they shut down all the relays so that would make you think they need the citadel for that so it makes sense there first target is the citadel not only does that stop the races making a cordinated stand you take out there govening council who would be the ones to lead it

[wolf99000]

one thing I do wonder is will earth survive the last game as you would think it would be there second target after the citadel as its been humans who have stopped there plans in the first 2 games



maybe we will see a level where we have to protect evacuation ships from the reapers

[Jedi Sensei]

There was no indication in ME1 that the Reapers would attempt to build a 2nd 'vanguard' in-side the galaxy instead of invading from DarkSpace. Why should there be any indication in ME3 as to what the Reapers will attempt next?



My guess is, some other 'agent' of the Reapers will attempt to open the Citadel Relay...and succeed. No, it will not be the Keepers; the Keepers will be the ones to SAVE us all...the overlooked secret weapon!!



This series is all about control. Sovereign controlled Saren and the Geth with indoctrination. The Salarians controlled the Krogans with the Genophage. The Rachni control others with their minds -- the Asari too, possibly. The Thorian controlled the colonists with spores. The Quarians controlled the Geth and want to take it back (Admiral Xen does, anyway). The Geth control the Quarian homeworld. The humans control the fate of the Galaxy...(!!!) Who controls the Reapers??? I say, the Keepers!!



...or maybe not.

[Nightwriter]

DPSSOC wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

MasterMegatron wrote...

Most species find the Citadel and use it as their governmental center. Come through there, kill the government, and nab the most recent census and tech data. While the galaxy is still reeling, kill more. It's the perfect surprise attack.

The Citadel - and its census data - could have been easily seized once the Reaper fleet arrived in the Serpent Nebula.

Not before people became aware of them.  The Citadel jump allows the Reapers immediate access to the data as well as control over the relays so they know where to strike, how hard, and have no fear of the enemy receiving enforcements before anybody knows what the hell is going on(got ahead of myself there).  Also faster.

Why couldn't the Reapers use the exact same relay we use every time we visit the Citadel? It's quite close. They could arrive unexpectedly and swarm the Citadel very quickly through sheer force and numbers.

Of course, if the Citadel controls relay access - if they can reject unauthorized jumps, for instance - this might not be possible. However I don't really know how this works, or if the Reapers, as the creators of the relays, might be able to override this.

And anyway... we've been given clues that the Reapers sicced the rachni on us. Why? Was this Sovereign's first attempt at what he tried to do in ME1? Why did he wait so long between attempts? Why did he seem like he was in such a hurry?

[wolf99000]

Nightwriter wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

MasterMegatron wrote...

Most species find the Citadel and use it as their governmental center. Come through there, kill the government, and nab the most recent census and tech data. While the galaxy is still reeling, kill more. It's the perfect surprise attack.

The Citadel - and its census data - could have been easily seized once the Reaper fleet arrived in the Serpent Nebula.

Not before people became aware of them.  The Citadel jump allows the Reapers immediate access to the data as well as control over the relays so they know where to strike, how hard, and have no fear of the enemy receiving enforcements before anybody knows what the hell is going on(got ahead of myself there).  Also faster.

Why couldn't the Reapers use the exact same relay we use every time we visit the Citadel? It's quite close. They could arrive unexpectedly and swarm the Citadel very quickly through sheer force and numbers.

Of course, if the Citadel controls relay access - if they can reject unauthorized jumps, for instance - this might not be possible. However I don't really know how this works, or if the Reapers, as the creators of the relays, might be able to override this.

And anyway... we've been given clues that the Reapers sicced the rachni on us. Why? Was this Sovereign's first attempt at what he tried to do in ME1? Why did he wait so long between attempts? Why did he seem like he was in such a hurry?

they dont use the normal citadel relay because it does not go to dark space plus if they did just use that one you would risk the other races going to  dark space and hitting them while they are sleeping

how it works the reapers made the citadel and the relays I am guessing that there is a shut down code that the reapers know that they plug into the citadel and it shuts them all down and they only used them to move from world to world killing everyone

he was in such a hurry I guess because ever race or cycle grows differently some faster guess this cycle the races were gowning faster I always took the rachni as a test to see how far the races had come and if it was time to strike

[Sunnie]

Over 3 pages of discussion and I never once saw anyone touch on the most basic and simple thing here. The citidel is a massive mass relay that links to dark space, there HAS to be a companion relay on the other end, in dark space. As long as the Citidel is intact there will always be a threat that its link can be opened and allow the Reaper fleet through. So there are really only 2 options.

1. Destroy the Citidel (which also disables the entire mass relay network). Threat over, Reapers will run out of energy before they can arive in our galaxy.

OR

2. Figure out how to trigger the Citidel to link only to dark space, one way (as the Protheans did from Ilos to the Citidel), and Shepard and crew go off on the ultimate suicide mission to destroy the remote relay thus preventing the Reapers from ever returning again.



Since the galaxy needs the relay system in tact and functining, the only other option is #2. Buh bye Shep and team, part 3 really is the end of the story!

[wolf99000]

I think number 2 could be the way they are heading but you would need to drive them back there first

[klossen4]

If they take the citadel they propably make all relays act like omega 4 relay.

[kelmar6821]

Of course they aren't, we just need to put soldiers in evo suits on the outside of all space ship hulls, equipped with widows and rocket launchers, and we got it. problem solved.

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Not before people became aware of them.  The Citadel jump allows the Reapers immediate access to the data as well as control over the relays so they know where to strike, how hard, and have no fear of the enemy receiving enforcements before anybody knows what the hell is going on(got ahead of myself there).  Also faster.

Why couldn't the Reapers use the exact same relay we use every time we visit the Citadel? It's quite close. They could arrive unexpectedly and swarm the Citadel very quickly through sheer force and numbers.

I could be mistaken but I was under the impression that the relays function point to point (meaning you can't just jump from one relay to any other in the galaxy).  So in order to get to the relay outside the Citadel they would have to first get to one of the relays in our galaxy that links to it.  That is what I meant about people becoming aware of them it's like trying to secretly move an army using major highways, it can be done but your likelihood of exposure is greatly increased.  Sovereign's plan allowed the Reapers to instantly jump to the Citadel; no risk of detection and no chance of defeat.  It was pure dumb luck that had the Normandy going to Eden Prime at the same time Saren did, had they been a day earlier or later Sovereign's plan would have gone off without a hitch.

Nightwriter wrote...
And anyway... we've been given clues that the Reapers sicced the rachni on us. Why? Was this Sovereign's first attempt at what he tried to do in ME1? Why did he wait so long between attempts? Why did he seem like he was in such a hurry?

Again just going by my impressions from the game it seems that yeah the Rachni were Sovereigns first plan.  As for why he waited so long I believe the answer is two fold.  #1 He could afford to - Reapers are to all appearances immortal the passage of a few centuries even a few millenia isn't a big concern to them so he could afford to be patient.  #2 Had to wait for an opportunity - the Rachni showed that straight up invasion wasn't an effective strategy so he needed to wait for an opening that would allow him to gain access to the Citadel.  Now whether he knew about the Conduit before Saren I don't know but once he did he also had to focus on finding and discovering the purpose of it (if it was somehow keeping the relay from activating going to the Citadel wouldn't have helped.

Finally the reason he seems to be in such a hurry is that he's been exposed.  Had Shepard not been on Eden Prime or had he not found the evidence against Saren Sovereign could have continued with the plan at a slower pace, Shepard exposing and tracking Saren meant he had to accelerate his schedule.

An alternate explanation for the Rachni was Sovereign was using it as a way of testing the technological progress of the Citadel races.

[Weskerr]

We don'y know how the Reapers will accomplish their invasion. All we do know is that they will try to "find another way." And believe me, they are not flying back.

[TimelessOne9009]

The reapers flying in like that shows arrogance--something machines normally don't have. You know how Sovereign said "each is a nation?" In ME2, didn't we learn that each reaper was built from the organic material of a conquered race--there are still thousands of "voices" inside it?



They're sentient constructs, but for the most part machines--they have protocols which they cannot break (perhaps this is why we may never understand how they work). Where, then, is this arrogance coming from? They know they are eternal, maybe it's "going to their heads?"





Another thought of mine would be dark energy--highlighted a lot in ME2. I was reading a post (I think on this thread--not a big fan of backtracking, just noting that the original idea was not mine), what if dark energy has something to do with their "plan C?"



Haestrom's sun for instance--what was the evidence that Tali received about it?





Of course, all wild speculation, but that's just something I enjoy doing. Besides, when you get rid of th obvious, it makes getting rid of everything else easier.

[wolf99000]

not sure if you meant my post where I said that coming the long way there energy would be low and that the dark energy or something emitted from the sun after is what they run on so there allies are doing this so they can power up full once they get to the milky way

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

adam_grif wrote...

If we assume that the reapers make a 90 degree angle with the two ends of the milky way, we can extrapolate distance. You don't need to know what it was, and I've forgotten the exact number. But given ME FTL speeds of 12 lightyears per day, a sustained cruise at this velocity gives us approximately a 2 year transit time if they're just flying in directly.

The only concern is that they have nowhere to discharge their drive cores into, which means they shouldn't be able to sustain FTL flight in dark space for more than a few days before tearing themselves apart because of this. It is likely they simply have another plan to get here.

A object in motion, stays in motion. Sheppards death was harbringer's plan all along in my opinon. That's all he needed to do to make everything fall apart. Unfortunately for harbringer, He was revived from the dead and made even deadily. Something harbringer did not count on. Secondly, it's not like Citadel council can rally everyone at a moment's notice, it takes time, and if the reaper fleet appeared in a mass relay system, it would just need to manually jump to the citadel. Limited response time.

If what you say is true, we had an two year time between sheppard's death and end of ME1. Plenty of time for the reapers to gain enough momentum and then turn off their engines and keep going simply due to physics, at the fastest speed they can go without breaking up. The fact that the last cutscene showing the reaper fleet appoaching and entering sunlight says one thing to me. They are almost here. If they can enter the light of the milky way like that. A galaxy wide invasion of reapers is very very likely to me. I would not be surprised if killing sheppard was simply their way of buying time for them to travel to the outer edges of the milky way. They were already on the outer-edge of the milky way as is, so it's not like they are WAY WAY WAY out there. they are just floating there on the edge.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 28 mars 2010 - 07:52 .

[Sunnie]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

If we assume that the reapers make a 90 degree angle with the two ends of the milky way, we can extrapolate distance. You don't need to know what it was, and I've forgotten the exact number. But given ME FTL speeds of 12 lightyears per day, a sustained cruise at this velocity gives us approximately a 2 year transit time if they're just flying in directly.

The only concern is that they have nowhere to discharge their drive cores into, which means they shouldn't be able to sustain FTL flight in dark space for more than a few days before tearing themselves apart because of this. It is likely they simply have another plan to get here.

A object in motion, stays in motion. Sheppards death was harbringer's plan all along in my opinon. That's all he needed to do to make everything fall apart. Unfortunately for harbringer, He was revived from the dead and made even deadily. Something harbringer did not count on. Secondly, it's not like Citadel council can rally everyone at a moment's notice, it takes time, and if the reaper fleet appeared in a mass relay system, it would just need to manually jump to the citadel. Limited response time.

If what you say is true, we had an two year time between sheppard's death and end of ME1. Plenty of time for the reapers to gain enough momentum and then turn off their engines and keep going simply due to physics, at the fastest speed they can go without breaking up. The fact that the last cutscene showing the reaper fleet appoaching and entering sunlight says one thing to me. They are almost here. If they can enter the light of the milky way like that. A galaxy wide invasion of reapers is very very likely to me. I would not be surprised if killing sheppard was simply their way of buying time for them to travel to the outer edges of the milky way. They were already on the outer-edge of the milky way as is, so it's not like they are WAY WAY WAY out there. they are just floating there on the edge.

The last scene in ME2 where they cut to a shot of the Reaper fleet, they did not appear to be moving. They appeared to be standing still and powering up. And from the viewpoint we got, the entire MIlky Way galaxy fit fully into the frame so they are still a very very very long way away. And as I understand it, in order to maintain FTL travel, you need a consistent power source to apply force, otherwise physics will demand that the object return to sublight speeds. Whether you believe it or not, space is not completely devoid of any friction or gravitational influences. It "will" take them a very long time to travel to the outer edges of the galaxy.

Oh and one more thing, it was not 2 years between the end of ME1 and Sheps death, it was 2 months. It was 2 years between the time Shep died and then woke up on the Cerberus station.

[epoch_]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Hey, if the reapers were even half-smart, they'd just loiter around outside the galaxy for three hundred years or so and wait until Shepard-Commander dies and the galaxy dismisses the Reapers as a fable. Then they can roll in and take everyone by surprise!
Because really, the Reapers are immortal. They KNOW that they'll outlive any old meatbag and that other old meatbags have imperfect memories and tend to forget stuff.
Perfect sense, right?

You just ruined the game for me.