125 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Kangasniemi wrote...
When hitting somebody with the but of your gun or elbow, you don't need to release your grip of the gun.

This doesn't take away from your previous statement.  How is a punch okay, but a knife not?  Explain.

OK, so you lie on your back, your enemy on top of you and you have a pistol to his head (it is quite a feat to manage to pull a pistol out and to put it to your opponents head while you are both fighting for your life, but lets not nit pick...). Pray tell me, what would your next move be? Wait untill the enemies die of old age? Or, yet again, get raped by the rest of the enemies who indeed have their wepons at the ready and are willing to use them?

You can pop a round in his brain, or if he's already dead, start aiming on your opponents.  Use of enemy as cover.
 

[cos1ne]

Solomen wrote...
Its a reflexive response.  If you strike a buffalo in the back of the knee it will bend that leg.  It doesn't take as much force as you might think. 

Who says Krogan even have reflexes? I mean they don't even have a proper nervous system...besides when you have redundant organs you probably don't need to be all that 'twitchy' to maintain survival.

Also have a 4-year old hit you in the knee as hard as he can, probably similar analogy to human/krogan combat.
----

Also I'm sure Shep has been trained in some form of hand-to-hand combat. However it appears that the majority of his military training has been spent on squad tactics. Melee works well when its one guy against one guy. But with groups, most of whom are still armed and know where you are at melee I think would be a bad idea. I mean it's not like Shepard is ever really "stealthy". I mean enemies seem to know when he shows up, and he's never really very quiet. So Shepard just isn't in a situation that would warrant using his melee skills often. And when he is you do see them, like the renegade interrupt at the beginning of Miranda's loyalty mission.

[smudboy]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Smud, I always play as a Soldier, but your idea of biotic melee strikes is inspired. I think that could be a showcase feature for ME3 just like the vanguard charge. Is there an ME3 suggestions thread? You should put this in it.

The soldiers should hit with their weapons - pistol whips, butt strikes, maybe a spring loaded bayonet spike on the assault rifle.

It would work with the Vanguard, or a natural evolution of the Vanguard, to use holds and punches.  An adept, at least, I guess, biotic punches and kicks.  Sentinel I think is still going to be a pretty defensive class, so I could imagine them using enemies are cover, or jacking into their enemies barriers and using them as a shield/submission.

[smudboy]

Computron2000 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Last I checked you needed at least one hand to punch someone, too.

Which is why unarmed combat for military forces incorporate your weapon into your attacks

smudboy wrote...
Or just grab the guy and put a gun to his head and use him as cover.

Better yet, use his body as a shield as you're on the ground with his corpse on top of you.  How's that for dry humping?

Sorry but this is TV rubbish. A body is useless as cover against anything larger than pistol rounds (and even in that its not effective). A sustained MG burst can shatter concrete. ME weapons fire at speeds that treat MG bursts as a joke. A flesh and bone blockaage would be laughable.

If said body's armor/shield was working so as to be an effective shield then he would not be dead (aka armor bar would still be there) and would thus fight you, putting you in greater danger than if you just ducked into a solid cover

If you can bypass an opponents defenses (armor and shields), which we see a lot in ME cutscenes (Saren committing suicide, Jack just smacking things with her biotic punches, Shepard and Thane neck snapping, Thane's kung fu, Samara's various hand/foot neck snapping), you should be able to disable or lethal kill them up close.  If that's the case, their armor/shield isn't affected, and you should be able to use them as a barrier of some kind.  A fallen/disabled Krogan, for example, would be good cover.

The reason I'm arguing this is it's a cover shooter.  A person of armor/shielding is no more realistic than an indestructive/immovable crate.  ME needs variation.  In the previous thread I argued to be able to carry a deployable or physical shield.  I still think that using enemies as cover would be much more dynamic, and can be incorporated into a Vanguard play style. (charge-grab, pull-grab, etc.)

[kelmar6821]

watch this video at about 1:05







thats would be all we need XD

[Kangasniemi]

smudboy wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...
When hitting somebody with the but of your gun or elbow, you don't need to release your grip of the gun.

This doesn't take away from your previous statement.  How is a punch okay, but a knife not?  Explain.

OK, so you lie on your back, your enemy on top of you and you have a pistol to his head (it is quite a feat to manage to pull a pistol out and to put it to your opponents head while you are both fighting for your life, but lets not nit pick...). Pray tell me, what would your next move be? Wait untill the enemies die of old age? Or, yet again, get raped by the rest of the enemies who indeed have their wepons at the ready and are willing to use them?

You can pop a round in his brain, or if he's already dead, start aiming on your opponents.  Use of enemy as cover.
 

When you punch you release your grip. After that punch you can regain that grip. If you have a knife in your hand you can't grip your weapon again before you put you knife some where.

And as for having a body on top yof you as cover, yeah that doesn't do ****. Bullets won't even slow down while they rip trough the body on top of you and into you. And trying to aim while having a body on top of you, you might kill the enemy indeed. Oh not by shooting them, no. They would die laughing.

[Kangasniemi]

kelmar6821 wrote...

watch this video at about 1:05



thats would be all we need XD

Seeing how in RC the weapons are USELESS and the only thing that actually can kill stuff is that wrist blade thing, that same kind of gameplay mechanics is THE LAST thing ME needs.

In RC you can kill one of those bugs with a single blade strike but you need to shoot them for 10 seconds with an assault rifle to kill them. That is the last thing we need in ME.

[smudboy]

Kangasniemi wrote...
When you punch you release your grip. After that punch you can regain that grip. If you have a knife in your hand you can't grip your weapon again before you put you knife some where.

Punching ways 1) fist, 2) open palm.  Okay so in 1) we have a grip.  We then punch someone.
In 2) we have no grip.  We punch someone.  And then we make a fist?
With a knife, we're gripping the knife.  So in order to constitue gripping the weapon again, we have to put the knife down?  Okay.

That's all?  That's the argument for a punch being okay, but a knife not?

You do know this is a game, yes?

And as for having a body on top yof you as cover, yeah that doesn't do ****. Bullets won't even slow down while they rip trough the body on top of you and into you. And trying to aim while having a body on top of you, you might kill the enemy indeed. Oh not by shooting them, no. They would die laughing.

Why wouldn't it do ****?  The body could have armor and shields if you bypass their shields/armor with a lethal melee attack/anti-medigel/biotic-choke hold/omni-tool-shock/make something up.  There.  Enemy based cover shooter tactic.

The only one laughing would be people trying to make sense of your arguments...

[Lord Coake]

"If you are forced to use your bayonet in combat, it means that you are out of ammunition and your position has been overrrun.  In simpler words, you are ****ed and may as well try to take a few of the enemy with you."

Pretty much what a friends DI told her during basic.

The military does teach some basic melee and hand to hand techniques.  Very basic. 

Modifié par Lord Coake, 28 mars 2010 - 03:56 .

[smudboy]

Kangasniemi wrote...
When you punch you release your grip. After that punch you can regain that grip. If you have a knife in your hand you can't grip your weapon again before you put you knife some where.

And as for having a body on top yof you as cover, yeah that doesn't do ****. Bullets won't even slow down while they rip trough the body on top of you and into you. And trying to aim while having a body on top of you, you might kill the enemy indeed. Oh not by shooting them, no. They would die laughing.

Here's Kasumi in action, doing her "disable":
www.youtube.com/watch

She uses her omni tool to punch/knock the guy out, and then what was that?  She has a gun in her hand instantly.

[Kangasniemi]

smudboy wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...
When you punch you release your grip. After that punch you can regain that grip. If you have a knife in your hand you can't grip your weapon again before you put you knife some where.

Punching ways 1) fist, 2) open palm.  Okay so in 1) we have a grip.  We then punch someone.
In 2) we have no grip.  We punch someone.  And then we make a fist?
With a knife, we're gripping the knife.  So in order to constitue gripping the weapon again, we have to put the knife down?  Okay.

That's all?  That's the argument for a punch being okay, but a knife not?

You do know this is a game, yes?

And as for having a body on top yof you as cover, yeah that doesn't do ****. Bullets won't even slow down while they rip trough the body on top of you and into you. And trying to aim while having a body on top of you, you might kill the enemy indeed. Oh not by shooting them, no. They would die laughing.

Why wouldn't it do ****?  The body could have armor and shields if you bypass their shields/armor with a lethal melee attack/anti-medigel/biotic-choke hold/omni-tool-shock/make something up.  There.  Enemy based cover shooter tactic.

The only one laughing would be people trying to make sense of your arguments...

Please tell me where does that knife come from? Does it magically materialise to your hand? No you need to pull it out, stab, and put it away. Even the most useless no-life could release gun grip, punch some one and grip the gun again, before you could even start to think about stabbing.

And that bodycover thing is so 12-yer-old thing to do. Just because you've seen it on TV and think it's the coolest thing in the world, I can assure you it's not. It's stupid as hell and unrealistic.

And as for being able to grab an enemy with his shield and armor intact, have you ever heard about game balance? Yeah, I thought so.

[Dave of Canada]

PISTOL WHIP THE REAPERS TO DEATH.

[smudboy]

Kangasniemi wrote...
Please tell me where does that knife come from? Does it magically materialise to your hand? No you need to pull it out, stab, and put it away. Even the most useless no-life could release gun grip, punch some one and grip the gun again, before you could even start to think about stabbing.

Sheaprd could carry the knife.  In many ways.  I hear people can do that.  Carry handheld things.  Not just in their hands.

Okay, so here's your train of thought.  (Well no that's crazy.  This is just how it works.)

Punching
1) Release one hand on your two handed grip on gun.
2) Punch someone.

Knifing someone
1) Release one hand on your two handed grip on gun.
2) Grab knife.
3) Stab someone.

Oh no.

Nevermind that this is a video game in space, where a Vanguard can hurl themselves through solid objects and use their body as a projectile into any kind of enemy/surface.  Who says we can't have biotic blades, retractable arm-blades, or any other things that comes to fancy?  Or a goddamn shealth?

And that bodycover thing is so 12-yer-old thing to do. Just because you've seen it on TV and think it's the coolest thing in the world, I can assure you it's not. It's stupid as hell and unrealistic.

And as for being able to grab an enemy with his shield and armor intact, have you ever heard about game balance? Yeah, I thought so.

It's only stupid in your brain.  Which as we've found, isn't the most fun or logical.

If you can get close to an enemy, you should have some function of being deadly, aside from shooting.  Or better yet, use their defeated person as a shield.  Still waiting for your argument aside from "it's a 12-year-old thing to do."  If that's the best you can do, I emplore others to try.

[NCLanceman]

smudboy wrote...

Here's Kasumi in action, doing her "disable":
www.youtube.com/watch

She uses her omni tool to punch/knock the guy out, and then what was that?  She has a gun in her hand instantly.

To be fair, she never lets go of her weapon in the first place.

I always thought that Shepard should've had a knife. Not necessarily for stabbing people (although it could be something he could do once he leveled up his Pistol skill / Passive class skill enough to do, so he could hold a pistol / one-handed SMG and knife at the same time), but for getting through shields. Does anyone remember how in the very early seasons of Stargate SG-1 they had those Gou'ald shields that were "more effective against faster moving projectiles than slower ones", which made them invulnerable to gunfire? Then Col. O'Neill figures out a thrown knife can get through just fine. The codex more or less states that armor shields work pretty much the same way, which allows people in armor to sit in chairs and whatnot. I figure throwing a knife could be some kind of Infiltrator or Soldier class skill for that exact reason. For that matter, it's probably something Tali could do as well.

[Kangasniemi]

smudboy wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...
Please tell me where does that knife come from? Does it magically materialise to your hand? No you need to pull it out, stab, and put it away. Even the most useless no-life could release gun grip, punch some one and grip the gun again, before you could even start to think about stabbing.

Sheaprd could carry the knife.  In many ways.  I hear people can do that.  Carry handheld things.  Not just in their hands.

Okay, so here's your train of thought.  (Well no that's crazy.  This is just how it works.)

Punching
1) Release one hand on your two handed grip on gun.
2) Punch someone.

Knifing someone
1) Release one hand on your two handed grip on gun.
2) Grab knife.
3) Stab someone.

Oh no.

Nevermind that this is a video game in space, where a Vanguard can hurl themselves through solid objects and use their body as a projectile into any kind of enemy/surface.  Who says we can't have biotic blades, retractable arm-blades, or any other things that comes to fancy?  Or a goddamn shealth?

And that bodycover thing is so 12-yer-old thing to do. Just because you've seen it on TV and think it's the coolest thing in the world, I can assure you it's not. It's stupid as hell and unrealistic.

And as for being able to grab an enemy with his shield and armor intact, have you ever heard about game balance? Yeah, I thought so.

It's only stupid in your brain.  Which as we've found, isn't the most fun or logical.

If you can get close to an enemy, you should have some function of being deadly, aside from shooting.  Or better yet, use their defeated person as a shield.  Still waiting for your argument aside from "it's a 12-year-old thing to do."  If that's the best you can do, I emplore others to try.

Well seeing how I have had this very "conversation" with you before and your only answer has been: " But it cool and all the cool kids are doing it! I WANT IT IWANTITIWANITIWANTITIWANTIT!!!!!!" the whole time. It has been great fun when you try to insult me (hasn't worked by the way) and give absolutely no coherent arguments more than it's cool thing to do. Oh and almost forgot: not reading the whole thread and miss quoting people is always priceless!

When you grow up, you will actually notice that not everything in the wolrd need to be the same thing. Not every game needs to be a carbon copy of GoW or MGS. Diversity is actually a good thing.

Hang in the kiddo!

Modifié par Kangasniemi, 28 mars 2010 - 04:20 .

[smudboy]

NCLanceman wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Here's Kasumi in action, doing her "disable":
www.youtube.com/watch

She uses her omni tool to punch/knock the guy out, and then what was that?  She has a gun in her hand instantly.

To be fair, she never lets go of her weapon in the first place.

I always thought that Shepard should've had a knife. Not necessarily for stabbing people (although it could be something he could do once he leveled up his Pistol skill / Passive class skill enough to do, so he could hold a pistol / one-handed SMG and knife at the same time), but for getting through shields. Does anyone remember how in the very early seasons of Stargate SG-1 they had those Gou'ald shields that were "more effective against faster moving projectiles than slower ones", which made them invulnerable to gunfire? Then Col. O'Neill figures out a thrown knife can get through just fine. The codex more or less states that armor shields work pretty much the same way, which allows people in armor to sit in chairs and whatnot. I figure throwing a knife could be some kind of Infiltrator or Soldier class skill for that exact reason. For that matter, it's probably something Tali could do as well.

So she never lets go of her gun, yet can conduct a knockout move?
It must be magic!

Yeah, I'm waiting for Tali to show off that knife.

[smudboy]

Kangasniemi wrote...
Well seeing how I have had this very "conversation" with you before and your only answer has been: " But it cool and all the cool kids are doing it! I WANT IT IWANTITIWANITIWANTITIWANTIT!!!!!!" the whole time. It has been great fun when you try to insult me (hasn't worked by the way) and give absolutely no coherent arguments more than it's cool thing to do. Oh and almost forgot: not reading the whole thread and miss quoting people is always priceless!

When you grow up, you will actually notice that not everything in the wolrd need to be the same thing. Not every game needs to be a carbon copy of GoW or MGS. Diversity is actually a good thing.

Hang in the kiddo!

And now you're calling me kiddo.

Never have I responded that way.  If so, I apologize.  Although, perhaps only in your childish perceptions, whose responses are you seeing grappling as "dry humping", or giving ridiculous understandings of how a combat veteran couldn't possibly: 1) understand the logistics of holding a weapon in one hand, 2) use CQC.  Because in our gaming-sci-fi futuristic world, using the mass effect field argument or CQC just wouldn't work.

But that's okay.  I don't need to argue.  The fact that Kasumi has a take down move is evidence enough.

[CaptainZaysh]

Lord Coake wrote...

"If you are forced to use your bayonet in combat, it means that you are out of ammunition and your position has been overrrun.  In simpler words, you are ****ed and may as well try to take a few of the enemy with you."

Pretty much what a friends DI told her during basic.

The military does teach some basic melee and hand to hand techniques.  Very basic. 

You're f**ked if its bayonets and you're being overrun.  The flip side is that if you're assaulting with fixed bayonets, they're f**ked.

Bayonets are better to give than to receive.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 28 mars 2010 - 06:06 .

[silentstephi]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

I would support some sort of powered device on the forearm, like a katana or a guillotine on a piston. Anything less is probably going to have trouble getting through Turian armor.

You get some strength booster that you can add to the customizable armor... I need to find the link to it...

Edit:  Here it is

Strength
Boost Pads
Omega Market
Omega
4,000
+25% Melee
Damage


from the Wiki

Modifié par silentstephi, 28 mars 2010 - 05:36 .

[dipdunk]

Whatever the actual military strengths or weaknesses, in my opinion it felt a lot more satisfying in ME1 to sprint up, pistol-whip/rifle-butt smash an enemy to the ground and shotgun them.  Having never spent any time in the military, I can't reasonably say whether or not it is more effective, but pistol-whipping an enemy is far more fun than punching them.

I will admit, it's far easier to land a melee attack in ME2, but it seemed more fun and satisfying when barriers or armor didn't keep a melee attack from landing.

Modifié par dipdunk, 28 mars 2010 - 05:41 .

[Xaijin]

Kasumi is getting a melee style attack, and any "vetted" PM in ME should have a melee attack in close proximity. Grappling attacks are WAY outside the scope of the game usage by BioWare, but a CQC single attack should be available to all characters with varying strength based on race, training, and strength.

Modifié par Xaijin, 28 mars 2010 - 06:15 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

Hand to hand combat does still happen and most likely would in the future. There are numerous examples of it during the Iraq War for example, both in Fallujah and An Nasiriyah. It is likely Shepard and all other Alliance personal recieved some form of hand-to-hand combat training when they entered the Alliance military, just as military recruits do today.

Does that justify  melee weapons being added into the game however?

I say no. How many soldiers or Marines are running around today with swords? At best there should be nothing more than some sort of bayonet type extension to the assault rifles or maybe some form of futuristic combat knife. No swords, war hammers, or any similar melee weapons.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 28 mars 2010 - 06:15 .

[Spartas Husky]

Solomen wrote...

I keep seeing people post that the military doesn't use melee fighting.  Really?  I guess all that training with an asp and hand to hand takedown was a figment of my imagination then...  I guess my mess kit really can't be used as an improvised weapon... I guess the stock of an M16 doesn't make a very good club in an emergency.

Not sure what you mean by this topic.

You want the melee taken out or improved???

Military does train hand to hand, but is mostly quick kill, wrestling is in there, but I take a martial arts lesson with a short knife, over wrestling anyday. Your knife is your wife period.

If you want it improved??.....
I always loved the Star wars republic commando vibro blade....pretty good touch, very efficient, but discreet.

If you talking swords or hammers....this is not gundum or something like that lol.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 28 mars 2010 - 06:16 .

[Schroing]

A knife stab, no. The reason is that to stab some one you need at least one hand to do it. So now you stab someone and luckily you manage to kill them with a single stab (that is actually really realle really REALLY hard thing to do). Now you are standing there like and idiot holding a knife in one hand and holding a shotgun in the other, unable to use either of them. Guess what the 5 other enemies are doing during this time? Staring in awe of your 1337 n1njor skillz? OR pumping your sorry ass so much full of lead that your corpse will weigh a metric ton?

Have you ever heard of the word "drop"?
Maybe the phrase "let go"?

Modifié par Schroing, 28 mars 2010 - 06:29 .

[Spartas Husky]

Schroing wrote...

A knife stab, no. The reason is that to stab some one you need at least one hand to do it. So now you stab someone and luckily you manage to kill them with a single stab (that is actually really realle really REALLY hard thing to do). Now you are standing there like and idiot holding a knife in one hand and holding a shotgun in the other, unable to use either of them. Guess what the 5 other enemies are doing during this time? Staring in awe of your 1337 n1njor skillz? OR pumping your sorry ass so much full of lead that your corpse will weigh a metric ton?

Have you ever heard of the word "drop"?
Maybe the phrase "let go"?

hahahahahahaha nice