125 réponses à ce sujet

[Computron2000]

Schroing wrote...

A knife stab, no. The reason is that to stab some one you need at least one hand to do it. So now you stab someone and luckily you manage to kill them with a single stab (that is actually really realle really REALLY hard thing to do). Now you are standing there like and idiot holding a knife in one hand and holding a shotgun in the other, unable to use either of them. Guess what the 5 other enemies are doing during this time? Staring in awe of your 1337 n1njor skillz? OR pumping your sorry ass so much full of lead that your corpse will weigh a metric ton?

Have you ever heard of the word "drop"?
Maybe the phrase "let go"?

Not likely to happen. When you let go, you lose your weapon meaning the melee button is disabled until you pick it up again. Also meaning it negates the use of melee as a repeatitive action in the first place

There is no real pick up function for ME2 so if they do not change the engine, they need to implement it in, use a move over collect ammo style or resheath the weapon which is exactly what the poster was talking about.

The sheath and resheath weapon animation is a time killer which is why ALL melee weapons that are not automatic (fist, kick, wolverine claws, etc) are not useful at all in the ME engine.

Referencing back to RL hand to hand, there's plenty that can be done to improve melee's look without too many changes

[smudboy]

Xaijin wrote...

Kasumi is getting a melee style attack, and any "vetted" PM in ME should have a melee attack in close proximity. Grappling attacks are WAY outside the scope of the game usage by BioWare, but a CQC single attack should be available to all characters with varying strength based on race, training, and strength.

Good idea.  Much the same way Grunt has his unique "charge" maneuver (don't think he'd bother with much CQC), whereas someone more precise like Kasumi or Garrus, would do something a bit more refined.  God knows what Thane could do to an opponent up close...

[SOULdi3r]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

To be fair, what are you going to do to a Krogan?

deploy a genetic modafication that makes only 1/1000 krogen females able to have offspring ....oh wait

[smudboy]

Computron2000 wrote...

Not likely to happen. When you let go, you lose your weapon meaning the melee button is disabled until you pick it up again. Also meaning it negates the use of melee as a repeatitive action in the first place

There is no real pick up function for ME2 so if they do not change the engine, they need to implement it in, use a move over collect ammo style or resheath the weapon which is exactly what the poster was talking about.

The sheath and resheath weapon animation is a time killer which is why ALL melee weapons that are not automatic (fist, kick, wolverine claws, etc) are not useful at all in the ME engine.

Referencing back to RL hand to hand, there's plenty that can be done to improve melee's look without too many changes

Animation isn't a big deal.  Just look at the Kasumi video where she stuns someone yet still has her gun in her hand.  Imagine everyone had their own special melee.

We know Kasumi's.  We know Garrus and Shepard are all great at CQC (headbutting, kneeing, punching, etc.)  Jack likes biotically punching things.  Samara likes crushing peoples necks with her boot or biotic fists.  Mordin can punch.  Thane is, well, Thane.  Zaeed's no stranger to violence of all kinds, and likes to throw knives.  Tali has a knife we've yet to see.  (Although I do remember her pistol whipping in ME1.  Don't know if she does that in ME2.)

I don't know exactly what kind they'd do, but they have the potential to do so.

[SOULdi3r]

the only thing i see working in ME3 as far as melee goes is more animations (always nice to be able to do the exact same thing 30 diffrent ways) and a simple combo system. and MAY BE a passive power (like an ammopower, but for melee) e.g. incendiary bayonet-incendiary ammo in meleeform- disrupter wrist knife ect.

Modifié par SOULdi3r, 29 mars 2010 - 01:43 .

[Qwepir]

lastpawn wrote...

I suppose retractable forearm blade melee. I do not support a serious melee component to ME3.

Like in Republic Commando?

[thegreateski]

I loved that little knife.



I named him George.

[Goodwood]

IMHO, insofar as melee in Mass Effect, it should be limited to cutscenes. The core game mechanics only allow so much in terms of that kind of combat, and it is filled in just fine. The fact that you can get mobbed by husks and beaten to death isn't the fault of the combat system, it's due to your own tactics -- or lack thereof. Like what enormousmoonboots said a few pages back, at least the melee attack has been tightened up from the first game.

[Computron2000]

smudboy wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

Not likely to happen. When you let go, you lose your weapon meaning the melee button is disabled until you pick it up again. Also meaning it negates the use of melee as a repeatitive action in the first place

There is no real pick up function for ME2 so if they do not change the engine, they need to implement it in, use a move over collect ammo style or resheath the weapon which is exactly what the poster was talking about.

The sheath and resheath weapon animation is a time killer which is why ALL melee weapons that are not automatic (fist, kick, wolverine claws, etc) are not useful at all in the ME engine.

Referencing back to RL hand to hand, there's plenty that can be done to improve melee's look without too many changes

Animation isn't a big deal.  Just look at the Kasumi video where she stuns someone yet still has her gun in her hand.  Imagine everyone had their own special melee.

We know Kasumi's.  We know Garrus and Shepard are all great at CQC (headbutting, kneeing, punching, etc.)  Jack likes biotically punching things.  Samara likes crushing peoples necks with her boot or biotic fists.  Mordin can punch.  Thane is, well, Thane.  Zaeed's no stranger to violence of all kinds, and likes to throw knives.  Tali has a knife we've yet to see.  (Although I do remember her pistol whipping in ME1.  Don't know if she does that in ME2.)

I don't know exactly what kind they'd do, but they have the potential to do so.

Kasumi never drew a weapon. Like i said anything that requires drawing of a weapon takes too much time and negates the use of melee. This is why a rifle butt to the head is fine (no weapon), a seperate drawn weapon (eg knife) is not fine.

And the sheath/draw animation is extremely time consuming. For a test, play insanity with advancing enemies (eg suicide mission. Out of cover (the time you actually use melee), in front of Harbinger or some collector, switch between your weapons (eg pistol to SMG, or AR to shotgun). See how fast your screen starts flashing

[Xaijin]

Wrong. Krogan and rachni execute melee just fine with or without weapon, saying a another "normal" skeletoned creature is logistically out of range is plain wrong, and several of the characters' cinematic models ALREADY HAVE melee attacks; all BioWare has to do assign context properties and attributes.

Modifié par Xaijin, 29 mars 2010 - 08:04 .

[KainrycKarr]

Solomen wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

To be fair, what are you going to do to a Krogan?

Personally I'd hit a krogan on the back of the knee and use my shoulder to topple it, then switch to the shotgun and unload on its face while its down.  

Unless you're the size of Arnold Schwarzeneggar AND have Shepard's augmentations, you go ahead and have fun toppling that Krogan...with your shoulder.

Though yes. There is in fact melee in the military. Hell the Marines have their own special brand of martial arts.

[Karstedt]

You do know that properly trained, you don't have to be anywhere near as big and strong as your opponent to topple them?

[KainrycKarr]

Karstedt wrote...

You do know that properly trained, you don't have to be anywhere near as big and strong as your opponent to topple them?

...It's a Krogan.

This isn't a military trained 5'8 , 185 lb guy taking down a 6'2 245 lb bodybuilder via precise moves.

This is taking down, essentially, a dinosaur.

I would dare to make the assumption the average is likely bigger, heavier, and overall stronger than the biggest, strongest, human.

There are limits to training. It doesn't make you god, or defy physics.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 29 mars 2010 - 08:18 .

[Karstedt]

Captain Anderson did it.



The point of melee against a krogan isn't to overpower or "defeat" in hand to hand. It's to put it on it's back so you can shoot it, instead of getting trampled.

[Azint]

It does seem a bit unconventional.

Like chainsaw bayonets.

[KainrycKarr]

Karstedt wrote...

Captain Anderson did it.

The point of melee against a krogan isn't to overpower or "defeat" in hand to hand. It's to put it on it's back so you can shoot it, instead of getting trampled.

And I'm saying, based on the way they've portrayed Krogans, that what Anderson did is sort of silly.

Bioware can, and will, of course, alter it however they want, but my first impression of Krogans was always of a warrior you just plain didn't want in melee range. Ever. Regardless of size, training, or prowess.

Of course I could just write off by saying Anderson/Shepard are just THAT badass, but I'm a picky bastard like that.

[Arijharn]

Goodwood wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

This is MEverse. Your guns will make practically zero noise if you just propell your slugs sub-sonically. I think you're also underestimating how noisy people can be when they're dying, splooging blood all over the place.

Not sure I buy that explanation for "silenced" Mass Effect weapons. Even in the military today, there are very few, if any, munitions that go subsonic. Besides, slower speed means less impact damage, and with the size of bullets in ME, that means you're basically stippling your opponent with blunt needles, which is only going to make them angry.

Part of the training for knife work involved silent kills; trust me, by the time a commando had finished his training, he would have been able to minimize the amount of noise a dying enemy would make (take them by surprise from behind, cover their mouth, then insert the blade, all in one fluid motion). I've seen the WWII-era training films, they kenw their stuff, and the traditions and training are a large part of spec ops culture to this day. "Old tricks are the best tricks," as the saying goes.

Wouldn't the value of melee in the ME universe somewhat be tempered by the different anatomies of the alien species? Sure it would never become useless, but wouldn't it be potentially less valuable? I guess it would depend on who the Systems Alliance deems to be the greater threat and if they're potentially susceptible to take downs (I mean, a knife to the ribs doesn't sound like it might have much use against a Krogan or Geth for example).

Having said that, I like the idea for melee, but I think it might complicate the control scheme quite a bit.

[lastpawn]

Wild Still wrote...

You train in hand to hand combat for mental and physical conditioning. Just like at Sniper school you do puzzles, even though no sniper has ever fired live crosswords at an enemy. Learning hand to hand isn't about bum-rushing the enemy and Kung fu-ing them into submission it's about learning to focus under pressure and physical conditioning. Soldiers only Kung fu in movies, in the real world they call in air strikes and only shoot at each other with rifles if they can't use mechanized forces to avoid it. Soldiers are expensive, they have families that get pensions if they die, commanders don't waste soldiers in melee ranged confrontations.

Plus, let's face it, no game has ever done melee well if it wasn't the whole point of the game, fighting games do it, but RPG and TPS/FPS games, not so much.

This.

Though I'll say that Pitch Black (the video game) did a nice job with melee.

[Dreykov]

Mcjon01 wrote...

The only rational answer to this line of thought is chainsaw gauntlets.

YES

[hangmans tree]

What are you arguing about? My Shepard went melee with krogan...its in the cutscene in the Patriarh side quest on Omega. So whats the deal?

Shephard can fight hand to hand really well, in addition hes part cybernetic/borg now. He can use his N7 armour for strenght benefits. I did it quite a lot. that elbow hit is REALLY effective! Eg: geth base/collectors base - I had to sprint from valve to valve, on my run I was sendin' those bastards flying with my elbow (low gravity), squad was duck shootin them down.

besides, elbow is the strongest point in humant structure and in itself a natural weapon - hitting with elbow tears/cuts skin you know.

I do not see melee as a redundant ability.

Knife silent kills - on entry point (3-4th rib?), about 45 degrees upward, when you puncture the liver (or kidney, cant remember) the pain is so great you cant scream coz you inhale at that moment. You cant exhale and scream/make noise coz you're dead by that time. You dont even have to cover ones mouth...

I would like to see some melee move akin to "elbow" with combat knife - preferably installed in the armour "for close ancounters... just in case"

[smudboy]

Computron2000 wrote...
Kasumi never drew a weapon. Like i said anything that requires drawing of a weapon takes too much time and negates the use of melee. This is why a rifle butt to the head is fine (no weapon), a seperate drawn weapon (eg knife) is not fine.

And the sheath/draw animation is extremely time consuming. For a test, play insanity with advancing enemies (eg suicide mission. Out of cover (the time you actually use melee), in front of Harbinger or some collector, switch between your weapons (eg pistol to SMG, or AR to shotgun). See how fast your screen starts flashing

If she has a gun in her hand, and stuns someone with that same hand, how is that not drawing a weapon?

And how is drawing a weapon not fine?  We have two hands.  You can still fire a pistol with one hand, and pick your nose/do whatever you want with the other.

Excuse me, but what shealth/draw animation for a melee weapon is extremely time consuming?  We don't even have one, so how can we measure it?  BioWare can handle animations anyway it wants, or even not at all, which means its instant.  Because this is a game.

And nevermind the fact we can potentially just use CQC and not have any weapons, or use biotic punches/grabs/disables, or omni-tool punches/grabs/diables.

[crimzontearz]

I still think effective melee/hand to hand should be allowed to biotics for obvious reasons...

[Computron2000]

smudboy wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...
Kasumi never drew a weapon. Like i said anything that requires drawing of a weapon takes too much time and negates the use of melee. This is why a rifle butt to the head is fine (no weapon), a seperate drawn weapon (eg knife) is not fine.

And the sheath/draw animation is extremely time consuming. For a test, play insanity with advancing enemies (eg suicide mission. Out of cover (the time you actually use melee), in front of Harbinger or some collector, switch between your weapons (eg pistol to SMG, or AR to shotgun). See how fast your screen starts flashing

If she has a gun in her hand, and stuns someone with that same hand, how is that not drawing a weapon?

And how is drawing a weapon not fine?  We have two hands.  You can still fire a pistol with one hand, and pick your nose/do whatever you want with the other.

Excuse me, but what shealth/draw animation for a melee weapon is extremely time consuming?  We don't even have one, so how can we measure it?  BioWare can handle animations anyway it wants, or even not at all, which means its instant.  Because this is a game.

And nevermind the fact we can potentially just use CQC and not have any weapons, or use biotic punches/grabs/disables, or omni-tool punches/grabs/diables.

You should keep in mind what you yourself said

smudboy wrote...
This doesn't take away from your previous statement.  How is a punch okay, but a knife not?  Explain.

On your same idea of 2 hands = can do anything, please tell me if you can use a tempest and a hand cannon TOGETHER in ME2. Both obviously use 1 hand and i'm not going into the obvious examples of shotgun/sniper/AR.

As previously explained twice? trice? if there is no weapon swap animation aka Kasumi, then its fine. However YOU asked about a KNIFE. That is why we are talking about KNIVES.

Seriously, i already pointed out my support for more melee variety in THIS THREAD but without any weapon swap, aka no katanas/light sabres/clubs/etc

[Aradace]

jklinders wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Solomen wrote...

I keep seeing people post that the military doesn't use melee fighting.  Really?  I guess all that training with an asp and hand to hand takedown was a figment of my imagination then...  I guess my mess kit really can't be used as an improvised weapon... I guess the stock of an M16 doesn't make a very good club in an emergency.

Im ex-infantry so anyone that tells you that we DONT CQC in the military is wrong wrong wrong.  Our CQC training consists alot of Juijitsu with grecan roman wrestling.  And some basic Judo as well.  We are also trained in the fine art of the "E-tool"  For those of you that DONT know what an E-tool is, it's basically a shovel that can double as an emergency weapon when needed.  Also, we have our trusty M-16's (Or M-4 in my case since M-16 was too big for me lol) and can use them VERY effeciently at close quarters.  Some of us also carried a basic knife of some sort on our person.  I personally carried mine in a horizontal sheath on the back of my belt. 

Sooooooooooooooo, again, ANYONE that says Military doesnt use "melee" tactics of any kind are sorely, SORELY mistaken and obviously have no idea what they're talking about.  Solomen, seems to actually get it however

Honestly, if there is anyone on these boards who is stupid enough to claim that there is no CQC training in the military needs ot get out more. The only possible excuse I can give for them is maybe they think that soldiers are still trained WWII style with basic rifle training and how to follow orders before learning the rest "on the job".

With an all volunteer army, western military treats every recruit like the precious commodity it is. It takes years to become a fully fledged combat soldier. It's not just spec ops who know 100 ways to kill you anymore. The 6-8 weeks of basic just serves as the foundation for what is to follow.

Not in the army myself, But I am an army brat whose father was a combat intructor. And he could in life had taught some of these folks just how "little" he knew of CQC.

Its 14-16 weeks lol...9 weeks for most other MOS's in terms of boot camp.  But infantry, yea, we're there for almost 4 months getting trained lol...A little longer if you go for Airborne training like I did.  Of course that's only a couple extra weeks but still

[Raphael diSanto]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Karstedt wrote...

You do know that properly trained, you don't have to be anywhere near as big and strong as your opponent to topple them?

...It's a Krogan.

This isn't a military trained 5'8 , 185 lb guy taking down a 6'2 245 lb bodybuilder via precise moves.

This is taking down, essentially, a dinosaur.

I would dare to make the assumption the average is likely bigger, heavier, and overall stronger than the biggest, strongest, human.

There are limits to training. It doesn't make you god, or defy physics.

As a side point, there was a Cerberus news article about a Krogan vs Korgan champion cage fight where the Krogan opponent ducked out of the fight due to illness. A human opponent stepped in and got smeared all over the wall in record time.

(Oh, and Shepard's headbutt doesn't have near the effect on WorUvenk as Wrex's does.)

Also, just because you see characters in cut scenes doing melee attacks does not mean those animations are included in the standard in-game combat engine. You do realize that those cut scenes are pre-scripted, right?

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 29 mars 2010 - 01:38 .