125 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Computron2000 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...
Kasumi never drew a weapon. Like i said anything that requires drawing of a weapon takes too much time and negates the use of melee. This is why a rifle butt to the head is fine (no weapon), a seperate drawn weapon (eg knife) is not fine.

And the sheath/draw animation is extremely time consuming. For a test, play insanity with advancing enemies (eg suicide mission. Out of cover (the time you actually use melee), in front of Harbinger or some collector, switch between your weapons (eg pistol to SMG, or AR to shotgun). See how fast your screen starts flashing

If she has a gun in her hand, and stuns someone with that same hand, how is that not drawing a weapon?

And how is drawing a weapon not fine?  We have two hands.  You can still fire a pistol with one hand, and pick your nose/do whatever you want with the other.

Excuse me, but what shealth/draw animation for a melee weapon is extremely time consuming?  We don't even have one, so how can we measure it?  BioWare can handle animations anyway it wants, or even not at all, which means its instant.  Because this is a game.

And nevermind the fact we can potentially just use CQC and not have any weapons, or use biotic punches/grabs/disables, or omni-tool punches/grabs/diables.

You should keep in mind what you yourself said

smudboy wrote...
This doesn't take away from your previous statement.  How is a punch okay, but a knife not?  Explain.

On your same idea of 2 hands = can do anything, please tell me if you can use a tempest and a hand cannon TOGETHER in ME2. Both obviously use 1 hand and i'm not going into the obvious examples of shotgun/sniper/AR.

As previously explained twice? trice? if there is no weapon swap animation aka Kasumi, then its fine. However YOU asked about a KNIFE. That is why we are talking about KNIVES.

Seriously, i already pointed out my support for more melee variety in THIS THREAD but without any weapon swap, aka no katanas/light sabres/clubs/etc

Sorry, what?

Wait, so if we're all for more melee variety, why are arguing the logistics of an animation?

I'm up for all kinds of melee/CQC.  I think CQC is the way to go for some characters and classes. (e.g. biotic punch, grab) and I think each character should have their own, especially someone playing Soldier/Vanguard, based on what we know of the classes, characters, cutscenes and universe.

[Hathur]

What's the issue here? We have a melee attack in game - a "realistic one" (rifle/pistol smash)... this is fairly similar to how soldiers in current modern day would fight in the rare incidents where melee combat might actually occur (hence the reason soldiers in the military are still taught hand-to-hand combat).



Melee weapons would feel out of place... the current melee attack works because it's a natural attack -- someone gets in your face, you smash em with the butt of your rifle... there's no time to draw a blade or some other weapon and hit them (i.e. the absurd knife attacks in games like modern warfare where they can draw a knife while holding a gun and stab the enemy in less than a tenth of a second... sorry but even for a video game that's too hard to believe).



Mass effect handles the 'melee situation' better than most shooters out there. It's simple and effective in a desperate situation.

[Xandurpein]

Hathur wrote...

What's the issue here? We have a melee attack in game - a "realistic one" (rifle/pistol smash)... this is fairly similar to how soldiers in current modern day would fight in the rare incidents where melee combat might actually occur (hence the reason soldiers in the military are still taught hand-to-hand combat).

Melee weapons would feel out of place... the current melee attack works because it's a natural attack -- someone gets in your face, you smash em with the butt of your rifle... there's no time to draw a blade or some other weapon and hit them (i.e. the absurd knife attacks in games like modern warfare where they can draw a knife while holding a gun and stab the enemy in less than a tenth of a second... sorry but even for a video game that's too hard to believe).

Mass effect handles the 'melee situation' better than most shooters out there. It's simple and effective in a desperate situation.

Agreed. Melee fighting is something you train for to use in desperate circumstances, not something you specifically gear for. The seconds it would take to drop your gun and unsheath your vibrosword are better spent shooting bullets. The only melee weapon of any real use in modern warfare is a good old dagger for those few special forces trained in infiltration and backstabbing techniques. Otherwise you use what you have, rifle butts, spades or whatever.

[Avissel]

Solomen wrote...

I keep seeing people post that the military doesn't use melee fighting.  Really?  I guess all that training with an asp and hand to hand takedown was a figment of my imagination then...  I guess my mess kit really can't be used as an improvised weapon... I guess the stock of an M16 doesn't make a very good club in an emergency.

In what part of basic training did your Drill Sergent instruct you to throw down your weapon, pull out a sword and rush head long into a machine gun nest?

Yeah I didnt think so.

[Karstedt]

Avissel wrote...

In what part of basic training did your Drill Sergent instruct you to throw down your weapon, pull out a sword and rush head long into a machine gun nest?

Yeah I didnt think so.

True dat! Because everyone knows, all combat takes place at range VS machine gun nests!

[Computron2000]

smudboy wrote...
Sorry, what?

Wait, so if we're all for more melee variety, why are arguing the logistics of an animation?

I'm up for all kinds of melee/CQC.  I think CQC is the way to go for some characters and classes. (e.g. biotic punch, grab) and I think each character should have their own, especially someone playing Soldier/Vanguard, based on what we know of the classes, characters, cutscenes and universe.

*facepalm* Because YOU were the one supporting drawing knives which have been repeatedly explained to be worthless with the ME engine.

[smudboy]

Computron2000 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Sorry, what?

Wait, so if we're all for more melee variety, why are arguing the logistics of an animation?

I'm up for all kinds of melee/CQC.  I think CQC is the way to go for some characters and classes. (e.g. biotic punch, grab) and I think each character should have their own, especially someone playing Soldier/Vanguard, based on what we know of the classes, characters, cutscenes and universe.

*facepalm* Because YOU were the one supporting drawing knives which have been repeatedly explained to be worthless with the ME engine.

That was an example of the absurd argument I heard from another poster.  I'm up for any addition to the melee'ing in ME.

Although, now show me an example where knives are worthless in the ME universe.  (Tali and Zaeed have knives, melee and close gun attacks pass through kinetic barriers in cutscenes, and Grunt makes reference to stabbing people "right in the face.")

[Cascadus]

You're mixing your dialogue up. This is what Grunt says:

"I'm not going to stab you in the back, Shepard. Fighters like you and me - right in the face." and his comment on how humans, asari and salarians are all 'soft'.

[smudboy]

Cascadus wrote...

You're mixing your dialogue up. This is what Grunt says:
"I'm not going to stab you in the back, Shepard. Fighters like you and me - right in the face." and his comment on how humans, asari and salarians are all 'soft'.

Well, in that respect, Jack also makes a reference to having a "short knife" regarding people getting close to you.  I'm merely pointing out the references that relate to actually using a knife: I'm not too far removed Grunt's comment could be taken literally.

[Lord Coake]

Xaijin wrote...

Wrong. Krogan and rachni execute melee just fine with or without weapon, saying a another "normal" skeletoned creature is logistically out of range is plain wrong, and several of the characters' cinematic models ALREADY HAVE melee attacks; all BioWare has to do assign context properties and attributes.

A Krogan is roughly 1 ton of armor and muscle that's capable of taking shotgun blasts point blank to the gut and giggling.

Rachni are a several hundred pounds of furious chitn armor and razor sharp claws that are a hell of a lot faster than a human being.

Human soldiers are, in armor and fully equipped, about 200 to 300 pounds, have strength optimised for a mere 1g, are moderately quick but not so tough.  We do have some pretty good stamina though, so we may be about to outrun a Krogan if we have to.

Also, in ME, theres sentient machines, beings that can pulp you with their minds, and giant, shielded mecha with miniguns.  Humans have no business whatsoever being in melee range in Mass Effect.  Shep is the Hero of the story, and so have to be an order of magniture more badass than most any other human in existence.  For the rest, getting in arms reach of an angry Krogan is likely the last dumbassed mistake they'll ever make.

Training and equipping soldiers to be more open to making that mistake wouldn't be a good idea.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 30 mars 2010 - 08:27 .

[jklinders]

Aradace wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Solomen wrote...

I keep seeing people post that the military doesn't use melee fighting.  Really?  I guess all that training with an asp and hand to hand takedown was a figment of my imagination then...  I guess my mess kit really can't be used as an improvised weapon... I guess the stock of an M16 doesn't make a very good club in an emergency.

Im ex-infantry so anyone that tells you that we DONT CQC in the military is wrong wrong wrong.  Our CQC training consists alot of Juijitsu with grecan roman wrestling.  And some basic Judo as well.  We are also trained in the fine art of the "E-tool"  For those of you that DONT know what an E-tool is, it's basically a shovel that can double as an emergency weapon when needed.  Also, we have our trusty M-16's (Or M-4 in my case since M-16 was too big for me lol) and can use them VERY effeciently at close quarters.  Some of us also carried a basic knife of some sort on our person.  I personally carried mine in a horizontal sheath on the back of my belt. 

Sooooooooooooooo, again, ANYONE that says Military doesnt use "melee" tactics of any kind are sorely, SORELY mistaken and obviously have no idea what they're talking about.  Solomen, seems to actually get it however

Honestly, if there is anyone on these boards who is stupid enough to claim that there is no CQC training in the military needs ot get out more. The only possible excuse I can give for them is maybe they think that soldiers are still trained WWII style with basic rifle training and how to follow orders before learning the rest "on the job".

With an all volunteer army, western military treats every recruit like the precious commodity it is. It takes years to become a fully fledged combat soldier. It's not just spec ops who know 100 ways to kill you anymore. The 6-8 weeks of basic just serves as the foundation for what is to follow.

Not in the army myself, But I am an army brat whose father was a combat intructor. And he could in life had taught some of these folks just how "little" he knew of CQC.

Its 14-16 weeks lol...9 weeks for most other MOS's in terms of boot camp.  But infantry, yea, we're there for almost 4 months getting trained lol...A little longer if you go for Airborne training like I did.  Of course that's only a couple extra weeks but still

Sure for basic training, that's why it is called basic.  But training really does not stop there does it? Do they still send people into the fire straight out of boot camp like in the old days? Becuase I was under the impression that there was a lot of combat drills and conditioning before you actually see combat.

I know that in Canada The training never stops. Pretty late in career my father was still out on domestic training manuevers.

Modifié par jklinders, 02 avril 2010 - 11:37 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Lord Coake wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Wrong. Krogan and rachni execute melee just fine with or without weapon, saying a another "normal" skeletoned creature is logistically out of range is plain wrong, and several of the characters' cinematic models ALREADY HAVE melee attacks; all BioWare has to do assign context properties and attributes.

A Krogan is roughly 1 ton of armor and muscle that's capable of taking shotgun blasts point blank to the gut and giggling.

Rachni are a several hundred pounds of furious chitn armor and razor sharp claws that are a hell of a lot faster than a human being.

Human soldiers are, in armor and fully equipped, about 200 to 300 pounds, have strength optimised for a mere 1g, are moderately quick but not so tough.  We do have some pretty good stamina though, so we may be about to outrun a Krogan if we have to.

Also, in ME, theres sentient machines, beings that can pulp you with their minds, and giant, shielded mecha with miniguns.  Humans have no business whatsoever being in melee range in Mass Effect.  Shep is the Hero of the story, and so have to be an order of magniture more badass than most any other human in existence.  For the rest, getting in arms reach of an angry Krogan is likely the last dumbassed mistake they'll ever make.

Training and equipping soldiers to be more open to making that mistake wouldn't be a good idea.

1 ton krogans? Where did you get that figure?  Also, from my understanding melee combat has always been taught as a last resort.  Soldiers aren't taught to close with someone when they can shoot them.  All US soldiers have their K-bar for instance.  Yes it is a handy knife, but if it was meant to be just a tool it wouldn't be almost a foot long and made of tempered steel sharpened enough that it can glide through human skin.

[mcsupersport]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Wrong. Krogan and rachni execute melee just fine with or without weapon, saying a another "normal" skeletoned creature is logistically out of range is plain wrong, and several of the characters' cinematic models ALREADY HAVE melee attacks; all BioWare has to do assign context properties and attributes.

A Krogan is roughly 1 ton of armor and muscle that's capable of taking shotgun blasts point blank to the gut and giggling.

Rachni are a several hundred pounds of furious chitn armor and razor sharp claws that are a hell of a lot faster than a human being.

Human soldiers are, in armor and fully equipped, about 200 to 300 pounds, have strength optimised for a mere 1g, are moderately quick but not so tough.  We do have some pretty good stamina though, so we may be about to outrun a Krogan if we have to.

Also, in ME, theres sentient machines, beings that can pulp you with their minds, and giant, shielded mecha with miniguns.  Humans have no business whatsoever being in melee range in Mass Effect.  Shep is the Hero of the story, and so have to be an order of magniture more badass than most any other human in existence.  For the rest, getting in arms reach of an angry Krogan is likely the last dumbassed mistake they'll ever make.

Training and equipping soldiers to be more open to making that mistake wouldn't be a good idea.

1 ton krogans? Where did you get that figure?  Also, from my understanding melee combat has always been taught as a last resort.  Soldiers aren't taught to close with someone when they can shoot them.  All US soldiers have their K-bar for instance.  Yes it is a handy knife, but if it was meant to be just a tool it wouldn't be almost a foot long and made of tempered steel sharpened enough that it can glide through human skin.

1 ton in armor as listed in Wiki

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Krogan

[jklinders]

mcsupersport wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Wrong. Krogan and rachni execute melee just fine with or without weapon, saying a another "normal" skeletoned creature is logistically out of range is plain wrong, and several of the characters' cinematic models ALREADY HAVE melee attacks; all BioWare has to do assign context properties and attributes.

A Krogan is roughly 1 ton of armor and muscle that's capable of taking shotgun blasts point blank to the gut and giggling.

Rachni are a several hundred pounds of furious chitn armor and razor sharp claws that are a hell of a lot faster than a human being.

Human soldiers are, in armor and fully equipped, about 200 to 300 pounds, have strength optimised for a mere 1g, are moderately quick but not so tough.  We do have some pretty good stamina though, so we may be about to outrun a Krogan if we have to.

Also, in ME, theres sentient machines, beings that can pulp you with their minds, and giant, shielded mecha with miniguns.  Humans have no business whatsoever being in melee range in Mass Effect.  Shep is the Hero of the story, and so have to be an order of magniture more badass than most any other human in existence.  For the rest, getting in arms reach of an angry Krogan is likely the last dumbassed mistake they'll ever make.

Training and equipping soldiers to be more open to making that mistake wouldn't be a good idea.

1 ton krogans? Where did you get that figure?  Also, from my understanding melee combat has always been taught as a last resort.  Soldiers aren't taught to close with someone when they can shoot them.  All US soldiers have their K-bar for instance.  Yes it is a handy knife, but if it was meant to be just a tool it wouldn't be almost a foot long and made of tempered steel sharpened enough that it can glide through human skin.

1 ton in armor as listed in Wiki

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Krogan

That's just the wiki. 2000 pounds armor or not I think I am permitted to be a bit skepticle. That is heavier tahn an average draft horse and draft horses are a helluva lot bigger than a Krogan

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_horse

[Solomen]

jklinders wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Wrong. Krogan and rachni execute melee just fine with or without weapon, saying a another "normal" skeletoned creature is logistically out of range is plain wrong, and several of the characters' cinematic models ALREADY HAVE melee attacks; all BioWare has to do assign context properties and attributes.

A Krogan is roughly 1 ton of armor and muscle that's capable of taking shotgun blasts point blank to the gut and giggling.

Rachni are a several hundred pounds of furious chitn armor and razor sharp claws that are a hell of a lot faster than a human being.

Human soldiers are, in armor and fully equipped, about 200 to 300 pounds, have strength optimised for a mere 1g, are moderately quick but not so tough.  We do have some pretty good stamina though, so we may be about to outrun a Krogan if we have to.

Also, in ME, theres sentient machines, beings that can pulp you with their minds, and giant, shielded mecha with miniguns.  Humans have no business whatsoever being in melee range in Mass Effect.  Shep is the Hero of the story, and so have to be an order of magniture more badass than most any other human in existence.  For the rest, getting in arms reach of an angry Krogan is likely the last dumbassed mistake they'll ever make.

Training and equipping soldiers to be more open to making that mistake wouldn't be a good idea.

1 ton krogans? Where did you get that figure?  Also, from my understanding melee combat has always been taught as a last resort.  Soldiers aren't taught to close with someone when they can shoot them.  All US soldiers have their K-bar for instance.  Yes it is a handy knife, but if it was meant to be just a tool it wouldn't be almost a foot long and made of tempered steel sharpened enough that it can glide through human skin.

1 ton in armor as listed in Wiki

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Krogan

That's just the wiki. 2000 pounds armor or not I think I am permitted to be a bit skepticle. That is heavier tahn an average draft horse and draft horses are a helluva lot bigger than a Krogan

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_horse

Krogans weigh so much because their skin is denser than steel.  A regular knife would bounce off a krogan or varren.  Shepard is in no way normal though

[marshalleck]

jklinders wrote...


That's just the wiki. 2000 pounds armor or not I think I am permitted to be a bit skepticle. That is heavier tahn an average draft horse and draft horses are a helluva lot bigger than a Krogan

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_horse

Actually that figure comes from the first book I believe, which was written by the head writer of the first game (Drew Karpyshyn) so it's as accurate and correct as anything can be said to be factual regarding this fictional world.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 avril 2010 - 10:44 .

[crimzontearz]

funny.....the cerberus news lists a krogan fighter at..what? 150 kilos? even if it was 300 that is still only less than a THIRD of a ton



are you telling me their armor is 700 kilos of weight? that is 1400+ pounds



please.....

[Xaijin]

In any case executing a melee attack should be an option for SMs as well. We've already seen cinematic melee from several of them, and it looks and acts a ****load better than a walking sniper shot while running backwards.

Modifié par Xaijin, 03 avril 2010 - 11:28 .

[marshalleck]

crimzontearz wrote...

funny.....the cerberus news lists a krogan fighter at..what? 150 kilos? even if it was 300 that is still only less than a THIRD of a ton

are you telling me their armor is 700 kilos of weight? that is 1400+ pounds

please.....

With any piece of fiction it's possible to go through and cherry-pick anomolies and outliers. Certain sources carry more canonical weight; I'll take Drew K's word over that of the Cerberus News which is at best an anonymous writer from Bioware. It may not be Bioware writers at all, however. Look at the website that lists Samara as 600 years old, despite Samara herself directly contradicting that figure in the game. They can't even vet their own work properly. Which to go with? I take the word of the character in the game over that of  a website. Likewise I'll grant the books more weight than the Cerberus News which may or may not be farmed out to 3rd party writers and often contradict the information from the games (Virmire colonized? Since when?)

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 avril 2010 - 11:30 .

[Bogsnot1]

Avissel wrote...

Solomen wrote...

I keep seeing people post that the military doesn't use melee fighting.  Really?  I guess all that training with an asp and hand to hand takedown was a figment of my imagination then...  I guess my mess kit really can't be used as an improvised weapon... I guess the stock of an M16 doesn't make a very good club in an emergency.

In what part of basic training did your Drill Sergent instruct you to throw down your weapon, pull out a sword and rush head long into a machine gun nest?

Yeah I didnt think so.

Source: http://www.devongurk...oria_cross.html

Subedar Lal Bahadur Thapa (Magar)

2nd King Edward VII’s Own Gurkha Rifles

Resse-es- Zouai, Tunisia, N. Africa April 1943
On the night of 5-6 April, during the silent attack on the Resse-es-Zouai, Subadar Lal Bahadur Thapa was Second-in-Command of D Company….
The garrison of the outer posts were all killed by Subadar Lal Bahadur Thapa and hi men by kukri or bayonet in the first rush and the enemy then opened very heavy fire straight down the narrow enclosed pathway and steep arena sides. Subadar Lalbahadur Thapa led his men on and fought his way up the narrow gully straight through the enemy’s fire, with little room to manoeuvre, in the face of intense and sustained machine-gun concentrations and the liberal us of grenades by the enemy.
Next the machine-gun posts were dealt with, Subadar Lal Bahadur Thapa personally killing two men with

his kukri and two more with his revolver. This Gurkha Officer continued to fight his way up the narrow bullet-swept approaches
to the crest.

and

Lance Naik Bhanbhagta Gurung

3rd Bn, 2nd King Edward VII’s

Own Gurkha Rifles

Tamandu, East Myanmar (Burma) 5 March 1945
Rifleman Bhanbhagta without waiting for orders dashed forward alone to attack the first foxhole. With two grenades he killed both occupants and without hesitation rushed on to clear three more foxholes single handed with bayonet and
grenade. Realizing that a light machine gun now firing on him would hold up not only has own platoon behind him but another approaching from the west, Bhanbhagta for the fifth time advanced alone
under

heavy enemy fire to knock out this position.
Doubling forward he leapt on to the roof of the bunker from
where, his hand grenades being finished, he flung two smoke and
Bhanbhagta promptly killed then both with his Khukuri. Japanese inside the bunker was still firing the gun holding up the advance of the platoon, so Bhanbhagta crawler inside, killed this remaining gunner and captured gun.

Hey, it happens...
But lets hear it for the Gurkhas. Truer Vanguards could never be had.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 04 avril 2010 - 12:16 .

[screwoffreg]

The problem with melee weapons in ME is that with shields and barriers up, they would be useless. By the time those are down, a single kinetic shot would be enough to kill someone. Humans would also be at an incredible disadvantage against Krogan's/Quarians/Turians as they have armor as part of their physiology and Krogans in particular have redundant organs!

[smudboy]

screwoffreg wrote...

The problem with melee weapons in ME is that with shields and barriers up, they would be useless. By the time those are down, a single kinetic shot would be enough to kill someone. Humans would also be at an incredible disadvantage against Krogan's/Quarians/Turians as they have armor as part of their physiology and Krogans in particular have redundant organs!

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Kinetic_barrier#Kinetic_Barriers_.28.22Shields.22.29

According to lore, punches and other such actions on a person with shields would pass right through (as seen in a number of cutscenes.)

The Elbow of Doom, however, disregards this, and must hit barriers, shields and armor.

[Bogsnot1]

Kinetic barriers and shields could work the same way as they did in Dune.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Force_field

In the Dune universe, personal shields have been deployed that can stop objects with high kinetic energy. As well, when struck by an energy weapon, the subsequent reaction makes both the shield and emitter explode on a nuclear scale. In response to this, many have returned to using melee weapons, slowed before strike to penetrate the shield.

[TomBmbadil]

lastpawn wrote...

I suppose retractable forearm blade melee. I do not support a serious melee component to ME3.

You should play Rebublic Commando

[crimzontearz]

marshalleck wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


funny.....the cerberus news lists a krogan fighter at..what? 150 kilos? even if it was 300 that is still only less than a THIRD of a ton


are you telling me their armor is 700 kilos of weight? that is 1400+ pounds


please.....

With any piece of fiction it's possible to go through and cherry-pick anomolies and outliers. Certain sources carry more canonical weight; I'll take Drew K's word over that of the Cerberus News which is at best an anonymous writer from Bioware. It may not be Bioware writers at all, however. Look at the website that lists Samara as 600 years old, despite Samara herself directly contradicting that figure in the game. They can't even vet their own work properly. Which to go with? I take the word of the character in the game over that of  a website. Likewise I'll grant the books more weight than the Cerberus News which may or may not be farmed out to 3rd party writers and often contradict the information from the games (Virmire colonized? Since when?)

look if they were actually 1000 kilos we would not be able to lift even one of them with a 1000 newtons biotic pull let alone two or three like it often happens in mordin's loyalty mission