245 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

GothamLord wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Collider wrote...

A serial killer with an addiction to killing is no less deserving of being put down.

As compared to what else in your crew?? A vengeful mercenary, an assassin, a psychopath that admits to mass murder or a war criminal that created a sterilizing bio-weapon??

They are not even close to how dangerous Morinth is because she can mind control you!

Really? Isnt the whole point of getting the option of getting to pick killing Morinth or Samara the fact that my willpower is to high and I can shrug off her mind control attempts?

You are ignoring the SERIAL KILLER part.  An assassin for hire, a psychopath, a merc, and an STG operative who did what was necessary (ala renegade shep) don't in any way come close to a SERIAL KILLER in evilness.  Psychopaths don't contol their insanity, serial killers do.

[kraidy1117]

GothamLord wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Um no they can't. Morinth is a very strong Biotic and able to control anybody, even Shepard if you are weak minded. Face it, she had to die. A person who has a lust for sex and death, and has no problems at all in her past. We are told that Morinth had a choice, but she fled. There is no evidence that anything tragic happened to her life, unlike Jack which we get so much and even visit where she was as a kid. Morinth not so much and her stories make Jacks stories look like a kids cartoon.

Face it, she deserved to die, you probaly also let Balak run away and saved the hostages or let Vidio get away.

She has a lust for sex and death because of her genetic disorder and 400+ years of giving into said disorder for it to become a way or life and a addiction. I also cant see how you cant see the idea that your mother wanting to kill you isnt considered tragic. I dont condone Morinth's actions by any means, but I do argue that death is the only option.

As for Balak or Vido. Depends on my playthrough. Last ME1 I let Balak go to save the hostages and my last ME2 I let the workers burn to kill Vido.

Morinth knew what she was doing, she knew her mother would hunt her down. It was her own fault, why can't you see that?Having a person living that can control minds, is ruthless and kills with sex is more dangerous then anything Shepard has encounter, hell I rather face a Reaper then Moritnh, Samara only won because of Shepard for crying out loud and Samara is a very strong Biotic.

[Collider]

GothamLord wrote...

Collider wrote...

A serial killer with an addiction to killing is no less deserving of being put down.

As compared to what else in your crew?? A vengeful mercenary, an assassin, a psychopath that admits to mass murder or a war criminal that created a sterilizing bio-weapon??

These people don't kill for kicks or just for pleasure, like Morinth does. I'm going to sympathize more with someone who kills for revenge rather than "you look tasty." And you seem to forget you know, Tali, Miranda, Jacob...

[GothamLord]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


And saying that samara could have just imprisoned Morinth is just plain ignorant. Did you even talk to Samara before you sold her out to morinth? She tells you point blank that Her code "obligates her to kill the wicked", those exact words. She could no more break that covenant Shepard could surrender to the reapers. It is an integral part of her character, she can't just betray it.

Yes I talked to her.   And yes "her code" not *my* code.  Last I checked Samara was under an oath to me. I wasnt given an option to take Morinth into custody which irked me to no end. Just because momma wants to turn into a Justicar to clear her conscience and  track down and have a valid excuse to kill her daughter because shes a evil demon baby making machine doesnt mean its the only option.  Samara "code" also obligated her to openly state she'd kill a building full of cops for dedaining her.  Killing cops for holding her during a murder investgation... real wicked practice there... 

[kraidy1117]

GothamLord wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


And saying that samara could have just imprisoned Morinth is just plain ignorant. Did you even talk to Samara before you sold her out to morinth? She tells you point blank that Her code "obligates her to kill the wicked", those exact words. She could no more break that covenant Shepard could surrender to the reapers. It is an integral part of her character, she can't just betray it.

Yes I talked to her.   And yes "her code" not *my* code.  Last I checked Samara was under an oath to me. I wasnt given an option to take Morinth into custody which irked me to no end. Just because momma wants to turn into a Justicar to clear her conscience and  track down and have a valid excuse to kill her daughter because shes a evil demon baby making machine doesnt mean its the only option.  Samara "code" also obligated her to openly state she'd kill a building full of cops for dedaining her.  Killing cops for holding her during a murder investgation... real wicked practice there... 

She would have gotten out and the whole cycle would have restarted. I think your Shepard does not have the guts to do the job.

[Big Yam]

killing Morinth = apathetic

killing Samara = disgraceful

Although, after siding with Morinth once, I can never look at or really trust Samara in the same way. I can't shake the impression of an imposter Samara.

[GothamLord]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...



You are ignoring the SERIAL KILLER part.  An assassin for hire, a psychopath, a merc, and an STG operative who did what was necessary (ala renegade shep) don't in any way come close to a SERIAL KILLER in evilness.  Psychopaths don't contol their insanity, serial killers do.

An assassin is evil, they kill for money or political means. A psychopath kills without regard for their actions outside of their own self-being. A mercenary again is a hired gun, though normally on a larger scale compared to an assassin. Serial Killers ARE highly insane. They however are a much more controlled fashion compared to the psychopath, as they normally fixate on people or places to center their murderous intentions.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Collider wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Collider wrote...

A serial killer with an addiction to killing is no less deserving of being put down.

As compared to what else in your crew?? A vengeful mercenary, an assassin, a psychopath that admits to mass murder or a war criminal that created a sterilizing bio-weapon??

These people don't kill for kicks or just for pleasure, like Morinth does. I'm going to sympathize more with someone who kills for revenge rather than "you look tasty." And you seem to forget you know, Tali, Miranda, Jacob...

Well, arguably Jack kills for kicks and pleasure, but that seems to have been ingrained into her from that drug treatment she got on Pragia, ie getting a dose of narcotics whenever she killed, thus associating killing with "good feelings." On the other hand, one could argue that Morinth is in a similar situation since she got a "rush" from every death and thus is... hmm, conditioned? Perhaps not, but certainly it contributed to her continued serial killing. 

But really, I think Jack is the only character on the Normandy like Morinth, and there are both similarities and differences there. The others aren't really comparable (e.g. Thane is nothing like her).

If I may be so bold, I wonder if the lines between, "Morinth is a monster," and "Morinth is somewhat tragic" correspond with opinions of drug addicts? As in, if we accept that there are people in this world who become addicted to the "rush" of a narcotic, do we despise them or take pity on them? It seems Morinth is somewhat analogous to a drug addict in that she has become addicted to the rush of the kill (both biologically and, apparently, psychologically). 

[Landline]

Lets see, I've killed hundreds of people on my way there, many in fairly gruesome and unnecessarily elaborate ways so I was pretty much desensitized to the whole thing.

[Collider]

Samara would only kill police officers if they got in her way. Morinth would eat them if they were interesting. I think there's a clear difference here, in favor of Samara. I at least hope you agree that Morinth is a monster deserving to die.

[kraidy1117]

GothamLord wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...



You are ignoring the SERIAL KILLER part.  An assassin for hire, a psychopath, a merc, and an STG operative who did what was necessary (ala renegade shep) don't in any way come close to a SERIAL KILLER in evilness.  Psychopaths don't contol their insanity, serial killers do.

An assassin is evil, they kill for money or political means. A psychopath kills without regard for their actions outside of their own self-being. A mercenary again is a hired gun, though normally on a larger scale compared to an assassin. Serial Killers ARE highly insane. They however are a much more controlled fashion compared to the psychopath, as they normally fixate on people or places to center their murderous intentions.

Sorry, I trust Thane or Jack then Morinth anyday.

[Collider]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
If I may be so bold, I wonder if the lines between, "Morinth is a monster," and "Morinth is somewhat tragic" correspond with opinions of drug addicts? As in, if we accept that there are people in this world who become addicted to the "rush" of a narcotic, do we despise them or take pity on them? It seems Morinth is somewhat analogous to a drug addict in that she has become addicted to the rush of the kill (both biologically and, apparently, psychologically). 

A serial killer can have a tragic childhood, but that makes no less of a monster. There are examples of serial killers who had deplorable childhoods yet are universally thought to be the manifestation of evil. Morinth does not feel tragic at all. Uh no she can't have sex? If you want tragic, go with Jack. You do have a good point about Jack's activities...that they give her a rush. But other than Jack, my point still stands, no one else kills for kicks.

[GothamLord]

kraidy1117 wrote...


She would have gotten out and the whole cycle would have restarted. I think your Shepard does not have the guts to do the job.

Getting out again is purely speculation on your part. Hardly something to state as fact. And you failed to comment on the killing of police being justified.

As for doing the job... Well I didnt have anyone die and a blew up the base. I feel I got the job done just fine.

[GothamLord]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...


If I may be so bold, I wonder if the lines between, "Morinth is a monster," and "Morinth is somewhat tragic" correspond with opinions of drug addicts? As in, if we accept that there are people in this world who become addicted to the "rush" of a narcotic, do we despise them or take pity on them? It seems Morinth is somewhat analogous to a drug addict in that she has become addicted to the rush of the kill (both biologically and, apparently, psychologically). 

^^^^^
This

[kraidy1117]

GothamLord wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...


She would have gotten out and the whole cycle would have restarted. I think your Shepard does not have the guts to do the job.

Getting out again is purely speculation on your part. Hardly something to state as fact. And you failed to comment on the killing of police being justified.

As for doing the job... Well I didnt have anyone die and a blew up the base. I feel I got the job done just fine.

Yes you don't think Morinth should die, that sounds too me your not doing a good job..... Theres a diffrence between killing a couple of cops then eating peoples souls. Did that escape you?

[Mallissin]

I like kittens.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Collider wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
If I may be so bold, I wonder if the lines between, "Morinth is a monster," and "Morinth is somewhat tragic" correspond with opinions of drug addicts? As in, if we accept that there are people in this world who become addicted to the "rush" of a narcotic, do we despise them or take pity on them? It seems Morinth is somewhat analogous to a drug addict in that she has become addicted to the rush of the kill (both biologically and, apparently, psychologically). 

A serial killer can have a tragic childhood, but that makes no less of a monster. There are examples of serial killers who had deplorable childhoods yet are universally thought to be the manifestation of evil. Morinth does not feel tragic at all. Uh no she can't have sex? If you want tragic, go with Jack. You do have a good point about Jack's activities...that they give her a rush. But other than Jack, my point still stands, no one else kills for kicks.

Ah... I guess I tend not to believe in the idea of any individual being wholly evil, so there's usually either some reason as to why they are the way they are or some bit of good buried deep within (in some cases, deep means, "under six feet of concrete" mind you XD).

Morinth feels tragic in the way that vampires feel tragic; saddled with an unnatural hunger coupled with a narcotic rush whenever the hunger is fed, making it really difficult to resist that hunger even when it hurts others. Such characters can still be monstrous and tragic at the same time. Samara and the Codex do note that it's nearly impossible for Ardat Yakshi to abstain, so the only option is pretty much comfortable incarceration. That Morinth does not take that option is wrong of her, as is all her subsequent killing, yet at the same time, Samara herself notes that the incarceration was "injust" (ie being imprisoned just because of what you were born as) and that was partly why Morinth took off. I suppose part of me would love to know more about that time: did Morinth leave because she liked killing and she wanted to do more of it and that was all there was to it? Or did she leave because she felt she shouldn't have to give up her whole life because of a bad set of genes, and over time ended up succumbing to temptation and becoming more and more jaded and murderous? An interesting story to be told, for sure.

Do I think Morinth had to die? Yes. Did I feel pretty darned evil when I killed Samara instead? Damn straight. Is Morinth a monster? If we define vampires and the like as monsters, yes. Is she tragic? I think that depends on the eye of the beholder. I think she can be. You think she isn't. I think we're both right for ourselves.

[GothamLord]

Collider wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
If I may be so bold, I wonder if the lines between, "Morinth is a monster," and "Morinth is somewhat tragic" correspond with opinions of drug addicts? As in, if we accept that there are people in this world who become addicted to the "rush" of a narcotic, do we despise them or take pity on them? It seems Morinth is somewhat analogous to a drug addict in that she has become addicted to the rush of the kill (both biologically and, apparently, psychologically). 

A serial killer can have a tragic childhood, but that makes no less of a monster. There are examples of serial killers who had deplorable childhoods yet are universally thought to be the manifestation of evil. Morinth does not feel tragic at all. Uh no she can't have sex? If you want tragic, go with Jack. You do have a good point about Jack's activities...that they give her a rush. But other than Jack, my point still stands, no one else kills for kicks.

Morinth isnt killing for kicks. Shes killing but her addiction deems shes *has* to. Just a junkie needing a fix. Sadly her fix ends up with alot of corpses.

Morinth is evil that much isnt an argument. Morinth is also difficult for alot of people to feel tragic for because, frankly BioWare didnt really give her alot of screen time BEFORE the showdown with Mommy-dearest.

Somehow I get alot of people here havent watched Dexter.

[GothamLord]

kraidy1117 wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...


She would have gotten out and the whole cycle would have restarted. I think your Shepard does not have the guts to do the job.

Getting out again is purely speculation on your part. Hardly something to state as fact. And you failed to comment on the killing of police being justified.

As for doing the job... Well I didnt have anyone die and a blew up the base. I feel I got the job done just fine.

Yes you don't think Morinth should die, that sounds too me your not doing a good job..... Theres a diffrence between killing a couple of cops then eating peoples souls. Did that escape you?

Hmm.. I'll remember that next time I'm in my patrol car.

[battle hunger]

Morinth is a monster, no way around it, but Jack is no better IMO. The rest of your crew doesn't even come close to the wickedness of those 2.



As for the original topic, I didn't felt bad when samara killed morinth, I did feel bad when I betrayed Samara though since as others mentionned, even as a renegade Shepard, there is no reason what so ever that justify doing it. (most of the renegade decision in this game I normally can see the motive behind them, but this one was just wtf?)

[UsagiVindaloo]

GothamLord wrote...

Collider wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
If I may be so bold, I wonder if the lines between, "Morinth is a monster," and "Morinth is somewhat tragic" correspond with opinions of drug addicts? As in, if we accept that there are people in this world who become addicted to the "rush" of a narcotic, do we despise them or take pity on them? It seems Morinth is somewhat analogous to a drug addict in that she has become addicted to the rush of the kill (both biologically and, apparently, psychologically). 

A serial killer can have a tragic childhood, but that makes no less of a monster. There are examples of serial killers who had deplorable childhoods yet are universally thought to be the manifestation of evil. Morinth does not feel tragic at all. Uh no she can't have sex? If you want tragic, go with Jack. You do have a good point about Jack's activities...that they give her a rush. But other than Jack, my point still stands, no one else kills for kicks.

Morinth isnt killing for kicks. Shes killing but her addiction deems shes *has* to. Just a junkie needing a fix. Sadly her fix ends up with alot of corpses.

Morinth is evil that much isnt an argument. Morinth is also difficult for alot of people to feel tragic for because, frankly BioWare didnt really give her alot of screen time BEFORE the showdown with Mommy-dearest.

Somehow I get alot of people here havent watched Dexter.

LOL, I was thinking of Dexter, actually! I've seen a few episodes and it's interesting, although I'm not sure I'd connect him with Morinth (Morinth seems much more engaged with the people she kills and with humanity... er, asarity in general XD) I'm also somewhat more comfortable with examining Morinth as a possible tragic character because I used to play Vampire: The Masquerade, where part of playing the game was dealing with the morality of taking beautiful and wonderful people and using them as snack food, and how characters who did so could still be "tragic" or at least protagonist material.

[Collider]

GothamLord wrote...

Collider wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
If I may be so bold, I wonder if the lines between, "Morinth is a monster," and "Morinth is somewhat tragic" correspond with opinions of drug addicts? As in, if we accept that there are people in this world who become addicted to the "rush" of a narcotic, do we despise them or take pity on them? It seems Morinth is somewhat analogous to a drug addict in that she has become addicted to the rush of the kill (both biologically and, apparently, psychologically). 

A serial killer can have a tragic childhood, but that makes no less of a monster. There are examples of serial killers who had deplorable childhoods yet are universally thought to be the manifestation of evil. Morinth does not feel tragic at all. Uh no she can't have sex? If you want tragic, go with Jack. You do have a good point about Jack's activities...that they give her a rush. But other than Jack, my point still stands, no one else kills for kicks.

Morinth isnt killing for kicks. Shes killing but her addiction deems shes *has* to. Just a junkie needing a fix. Sadly her fix ends up with alot of corpses.

You sure it's just the addiction? I never got that impression. Especially considering how she waits for tasty people and does not eat just anyone. That doesn't sound like a junkie to me. That sounds like someone perfectly able to control their actions.

Somehow I get alot of people here havent watched Dexter.

I have watched Dexter. Honestly, if anything it makes me less able to sympathize with her. I could imagine Dexter killing her

[kraidy1117]

GothamLord wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...


She would have gotten out and the whole cycle would have restarted. I think your Shepard does not have the guts to do the job.

Getting out again is purely speculation on your part. Hardly something to state as fact. And you failed to comment on the killing of police being justified.

As for doing the job... Well I didnt have anyone die and a blew up the base. I feel I got the job done just fine.

Yes you don't think Morinth should die, that sounds too me your not doing a good job..... Theres a diffrence between killing a couple of cops then eating peoples souls. Did that escape you?

Hmm.. I'll remember that next time I'm in my patrol car.

Pleese you mean to tell me that if a person like Morinth was real, and had a freak ability to kill with sex, control minds and is ruthless you would arrest her, not kill her even tho you know she is very dangerous?Sorry if I was a cop I would kill her and pay the price, rather have a person like that dead.

[FlyinElk212]

Mallissin wrote...

I like kittens.

/thread

[UsagiVindaloo]

Guys, guys, no need to fight. There's nothing saying we all must have the absolute same opinion about a character, is there? I mean, a friendly debate is cool, but I'm worried that mud is beginning to be slung. There's nothing wrong with finding her to be a pure monster, just as there's nothing wrong with finding elements of tragedy about her. We're all interpreting the source material through our own filters of experience, opinion, and whatever. We're all right in our own ways.

EDIT: for the record, the main reason I felt somewhat sad was Samara's responses to Morinth... namely, yelling at her to stop calling her mother, then calling her, "a disease to be purged, nothing more." I don't care who she is or what she's done (and let's face it, Morinth has done a LOT), but seeing any mother say that to any child, no matter how evil, makes me tear up in sympathy for the child. I would have felt a lot more comfortable if Samara had acknowledged the connection and even acknowledged her love and pride in Morinth while still being dead set on killing her.

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 29 mars 2010 - 04:54 .