UsagiVindaloo wrote...
I've come across vampires who cultivated relationships and actually did have a strange affection for the mortal and felt that feeding on them was some sort of act of mutual pleasure or some sort of zenith of their love, or what have you.
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I agree that comment was sort of uncalled for, but Morinth's instigating line was actually painful. I was like, "Dear god woman, do you actually think that I will believe that bull hockey about being the genetic destiny of the asari?!! You're sterile!!!!"
Sometimes it is hard to listen to something you know is a lie. Just having to listen to gives it validity it doesn't deserve. So I kinda thought that morinth deserved that line for Lying through her teeth.
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
@Gotham: About killing cops. We aren't Asari, but we are told multiple times that Justicars in asari society are like Jesus, they can do no wrong. If Asari society won't judge samara for killing cops of her own species and even go so far as to condone it, I'm not going to argue. It's their people and their culture, let them cling to millenia old customs if they want, no skin off my back.
I just try not to judge the customs of species that aren't my own.
Mallissin wrote...
UsagiVindaloo wrote...
I've come across vampires who cultivated relationships and actually did have a strange affection for the mortal and felt that feeding on them was some sort of act of mutual pleasure or some sort of zenith of their love, or what have you.
...you mean...in a fictional work right? I'm starting to worry about you, Usagi.
GothamLord wrote...
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Except that the asari members of the police force wouldn't have complained, they would know they asked for it. Also, you make a good point with the My code thing. I just want to know what you are arguing for. Are you paragon or paragade? Do you support morinth or not? Do you honestly think she didn't deserve death or not? Just lay out all your thoughts on the matter in one post, let me get a sense of who I'm dealing with.
Getting into my personal beliefs/job are highly thread-jacking. Also I'd rather not have to retype a dozen + posts again so I'll try and make this a quick and neat as possible...
Morinth -
Deserving death = Not in the manner its presented in the game.
Mentally Unstable = Yes without a doubt.
Addicted to Murder = Yes as a junkie is to a drug, based on her 400+ during in combined with her biological disorder. People that are mentally disturbed can start lying about something until they start to believe that its real themselves.
Evil = Yes for the most part, though argument could be alot of it that by this point she doesnt understand any other alternative. Its extremely difficult to argue the psychological profile of a fictional alien species that outlives us by x10 our standard age cycle.
GothamLord wrote...
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
@Gotham: About killing cops. We aren't Asari, but we are told multiple times that Justicars in asari society are like Jesus, they can do no wrong. If Asari society won't judge samara for killing cops of her own species and even go so far as to condone it, I'm not going to argue. It's their people and their culture, let them cling to millenia old customs if they want, no skin off my back.
I just try not to judge the customs of species that aren't my own.
I understand that point of view also. What was the comment Shepard made "Someone explain to the human what just happen?" or something similar. Shepard is human, as am I. While I might try and understand other cultures, accepting some of their choices isnt always as easy. Like Shepard I am also prior military too. I have also worked with the fire department. I have a very strong sense of duty and the sense of "brotherhood" that comes from working in squads and groups like the police force and the fire department. You threaten one of us, you threaten all of us. So some of that probably goes into my playing of Shepard. Samara threats cops...Human, Asari, Turian, doesnt matter. I will burn you down.
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
1. You're going to have to explain your opinion on death, sorry
2.In what way is she mentally unstable? Do you mean an experience kind of unstable ie abuse or do you mean biologically, ie Bipolar
3.I can see the sympathy reasoning and I agree with it mostly, however I'm an actions person, I think a person's actions should dictate how they are treated. I couldn't care less if someone pictures cutting open dogs and messing with their insides, as long as they don't do it. Now that doesn't mean I think a person's actions define them, quite the reverse. It is what people do when no one is watching and the things that go on in their heads that define them
4.Evil is a strange thing. Everybody uses it, but never correctly. Point me at a single person who has committed atrocities and I can usually say that they aren't evil. An evil person does something because they know it will hurt others and for no other reason. By that logic, Hitler and Mao weren't evil, just misguided. Stalin may have been evil, but I don't know enough about him to make a judgment. I don't think morinth was necessarily evil, she didn't kill to hurt people, she killed for herself, making her incredibly selfish. Despite this, I still think she deserved to die because as I said above, the actions a person makes define how I treat them, and Morinth killed thousands, making her worthy of death
UsagiVindaloo wrote...
Backing off the intricate details of Morinth and her tragi-monstrous... um, whatever, I will agree with those upthread who pointed out that the ingame choice to kill Samara and take Morinth... really wasn't handled that well. Especially since Samara pointed out that she was already sworn to help you... choosing to kill her just seems like Shepard embraced a bit too much eternity, if you get what I mean. XD
Two ways it could have been handled better:
1) Make Morinth far more powerful in the cutscene so it actually made sense why a Renegade Shepard would think she was a stronger, better choice for the mission. Hey, it's a cutscene, we all know how those cutscenes lie anyway (Dear Warden Kuril, this Subject Zero is defective, it can't blow up an entire prison by itself, am returning to sender)
2) One interesting twist would be to have Shepard kill Samara *if s/he couldn't resist Morinth's advances*. Of course, that would mean Paragades and Renegons would be stuck with her without careful management of their morality, but it would at least make a bit more sense and have an actual consequence besides Shepard getting all hot and bothered and repeating after Morinth like s/he's stoned.
Renegade higher you actually pull the trigger injuring Samara which would cause her to be weaker in the fight before you came back to reality.
GothamLord wrote...
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
1. You're going to have to explain your opinion on death, sorry
2.In what way is she mentally unstable? Do you mean an experience kind of unstable ie abuse or do you mean biologically, ie Bipolar
3.I can see the sympathy reasoning and I agree with it mostly, however I'm an actions person, I think a person's actions should dictate how they are treated. I couldn't care less if someone pictures cutting open dogs and messing with their insides, as long as they don't do it. Now that doesn't mean I think a person's actions define them, quite the reverse. It is what people do when no one is watching and the things that go on in their heads that define them
4.Evil is a strange thing. Everybody uses it, but never correctly. Point me at a single person who has committed atrocities and I can usually say that they aren't evil. An evil person does something because they know it will hurt others and for no other reason. By that logic, Hitler and Mao weren't evil, just misguided. Stalin may have been evil, but I don't know enough about him to make a judgment. I don't think morinth was necessarily evil, she didn't kill to hurt people, she killed for herself, making her incredibly selfish. Despite this, I still think she deserved to die because as I said above, the actions a person makes define how I treat them, and Morinth killed thousands, making her worthy of death
1. Take her in to custody. Put her on whatever neural mods or medication she needs to drop her biotics through the basement floor and say will you submit to the isolation now or not. If she refuses, off with her head or whatever means of justice that Asari justice deems fit. Morinth is on Omega and Samara is under oath to me before her Asari Code of Kill my daughter to clear my own conscience. Her ability to claim anything "Asari" takes priority is moot.
2. Yes Morinth is unstable. Mentally and biologically. Her genetic mutation combined with giving into the *urge* for 400 years as turned her into a addict that doesnt view life the same way anymore. Again the vampire comparison comes into consideration as she views her victims as nothing more than you or I would view a bucket of fried chicken. It just talks to use about music of art for a couple of dates over drinks before we eat it.
3. Our actions do define us. As do our thoughts. We do one thing and say another we are either a hypocrite or a liar. We think about wearing someones intestines as a hat more than a few times we're probably mentally unstable.
4. I'll avoid responding to much responding here to avoid the Godwin Law and the mention of Hitler etc. But *evil* as a true definition is a funny thing. Evil and things like right or wrong is the course of human history seem to vary. History tends to be written by the winner.
Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 29 mars 2010 - 06:23 .
Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 29 mars 2010 - 06:24 .
Mallissin wrote...
Good = what you want
Evil = what you don't want
The world really is just a very complicated binary computer.
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
GothamLord wrote...
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
1. You're going to have to explain your opinion on death, sorry
2.In what way is she mentally unstable? Do you mean an experience kind of unstable ie abuse or do you mean biologically, ie Bipolar
3.I can see the sympathy reasoning and I agree with it mostly, however I'm an actions person, I think a person's actions should dictate how they are treated. I couldn't care less if someone pictures cutting open dogs and messing with their insides, as long as they don't do it. Now that doesn't mean I think a person's actions define them, quite the reverse. It is what people do when no one is watching and the things that go on in their heads that define them
4.Evil is a strange thing. Everybody uses it, but never correctly. Point me at a single person who has committed atrocities and I can usually say that they aren't evil. An evil person does something because they know it will hurt others and for no other reason. By that logic, Hitler and Mao weren't evil, just misguided. Stalin may have been evil, but I don't know enough about him to make a judgment. I don't think morinth was necessarily evil, she didn't kill to hurt people, she killed for herself, making her incredibly selfish. Despite this, I still think she deserved to die because as I said above, the actions a person makes define how I treat them, and Morinth killed thousands, making her worthy of death
1. Take her in to custody. Put her on whatever neural mods or medication she needs to drop her biotics through the basement floor and say will you submit to the isolation now or not. If she refuses, off with her head or whatever means of justice that Asari justice deems fit. Morinth is on Omega and Samara is under oath to me before her Asari Code of Kill my daughter to clear my own conscience. Her ability to claim anything "Asari" takes priority is moot.
2. Yes Morinth is unstable. Mentally and biologically. Her genetic mutation combined with giving into the *urge* for 400 years as turned her into a addict that doesnt view life the same way anymore. Again the vampire comparison comes into consideration as she views her victims as nothing more than you or I would view a bucket of fried chicken. It just talks to use about music of art for a couple of dates over drinks before we eat it.
3. Our actions do define us. As do our thoughts. We do one thing and say another we are either a hypocrite or a liar. We think about wearing someones intestines as a hat more than a few times we're probably mentally unstable.
4. I'll avoid responding to much responding here to avoid the Godwin Law and the mention of Hitler etc. But *evil* as a true definition is a funny thing. Evil and things like right or wrong is the course of human history seem to vary. History tends to be written by the winner.
I still don't agree with taking her into custody, but I can understand the samara angle, I was a little perturbed by that as well. I mean, she is doing something righteous by stopping a serial killer maniac but at the same time her justification is a little skewed. The only thing I can explain it with is maybe Morinth's first kill was samara's lover, thus giving her a reason to go through the justicar training. Her lover is never mentioned which leaves that possibility. For me I'm a fairly forgiving person...until you do something unforgivable like attack me or my family. Then I become quite ruthless. Morinth did something unforgivable, and no amount of persuasion can change that. She is solely responsible for the deaths of thousands, and not for moral or respectable reasons like "they got in my way". She killed them because it made her feel good, and she did this for 400 years.
You still didn't get my mental health point, I was talking about biologically unstable, like a hereditary disease that afflicts mental health. I never heard the game say that she was mentally unstable as a result of her condition, just that she didn't have a fully developed empathy response. Serial killers in the Real world work in a similar way. It can be argued that Serial killers aren't unstable, they are always in full control of their actions, just not fully developed.
And your Evil point is also valid, I was using my own definition of evil, from the standpoint of believing that it is the things you do when you are alone and the things you think that define you. Other people (namely my parents) will have the belief that it is their actions that define them, in which case Hitler and Mao are evil. It's all subjective and no one is right or wrong on the matter.
Modifié par GothamLord, 29 mars 2010 - 06:50 .
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
To clarify, I believe that it is the things you think and do when you are alone that define you because I have known too many people who do bad, bad, things but aren't bad people. In fact, one man I knew grew his own poppies for the purpose of making opium, but he was one of the most honorable and likable people I have ever known. You can't judge a book by its cover is true of people too.
Most people who do bad things have justifications other than wanting to hurt people. That is where I draw the line, and I'm sticking to it.
GothamLord wrote...
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
GothamLord wrote...
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
1. You're going to have to explain your opinion on death, sorry
2.In what way is she mentally unstable? Do you mean an experience kind of unstable ie abuse or do you mean biologically, ie Bipolar
3.I can see the sympathy reasoning and I agree with it mostly, however I'm an actions person, I think a person's actions should dictate how they are treated. I couldn't care less if someone pictures cutting open dogs and messing with their insides, as long as they don't do it. Now that doesn't mean I think a person's actions define them, quite the reverse. It is what people do when no one is watching and the things that go on in their heads that define them
4.Evil is a strange thing. Everybody uses it, but never correctly. Point me at a single person who has committed atrocities and I can usually say that they aren't evil. An evil person does something because they know it will hurt others and for no other reason. By that logic, Hitler and Mao weren't evil, just misguided. Stalin may have been evil, but I don't know enough about him to make a judgment. I don't think morinth was necessarily evil, she didn't kill to hurt people, she killed for herself, making her incredibly selfish. Despite this, I still think she deserved to die because as I said above, the actions a person makes define how I treat them, and Morinth killed thousands, making her worthy of death
1. Take her in to custody. Put her on whatever neural mods or medication she needs to drop her biotics through the basement floor and say will you submit to the isolation now or not. If she refuses, off with her head or whatever means of justice that Asari justice deems fit. Morinth is on Omega and Samara is under oath to me before her Asari Code of Kill my daughter to clear my own conscience. Her ability to claim anything "Asari" takes priority is moot.
2. Yes Morinth is unstable. Mentally and biologically. Her genetic mutation combined with giving into the *urge* for 400 years as turned her into a addict that doesnt view life the same way anymore. Again the vampire comparison comes into consideration as she views her victims as nothing more than you or I would view a bucket of fried chicken. It just talks to use about music of art for a couple of dates over drinks before we eat it.
3. Our actions do define us. As do our thoughts. We do one thing and say another we are either a hypocrite or a liar. We think about wearing someones intestines as a hat more than a few times we're probably mentally unstable.
4. I'll avoid responding to much responding here to avoid the Godwin Law and the mention of Hitler etc. But *evil* as a true definition is a funny thing. Evil and things like right or wrong is the course of human history seem to vary. History tends to be written by the winner.
I still don't agree with taking her into custody, but I can understand the samara angle, I was a little perturbed by that as well. I mean, she is doing something righteous by stopping a serial killer maniac but at the same time her justification is a little skewed. The only thing I can explain it with is maybe Morinth's first kill was samara's lover, thus giving her a reason to go through the justicar training. Her lover is never mentioned which leaves that possibility. For me I'm a fairly forgiving person...until you do something unforgivable like attack me or my family. Then I become quite ruthless. Morinth did something unforgivable, and no amount of persuasion can change that. She is solely responsible for the deaths of thousands, and not for moral or respectable reasons like "they got in my way". She killed them because it made her feel good, and she did this for 400 years.
You still didn't get my mental health point, I was talking about biologically unstable, like a hereditary disease that afflicts mental health. I never heard the game say that she was mentally unstable as a result of her condition, just that she didn't have a fully developed empathy response. Serial killers in the Real world work in a similar way. It can be argued that Serial killers aren't unstable, they are always in full control of their actions, just not fully developed.
And your Evil point is also valid, I was using my own definition of evil, from the standpoint of believing that it is the things you do when you are alone and the things you think that define you. Other people (namely my parents) will have the belief that it is their actions that define them, in which case Hitler and Mao are evil. It's all subjective and no one is right or wrong on the matter.
Well if Morinth killed Samara's lover that means that Samara's lover was trying to knock boots with her daughter. The mental problems with this family continue to climb. Next on Jerry Springer...
Again its speculation as you said. I dont argue that Morinth has killed alot of people. As I said though I believe it to be a very bad addiction stemming from her Ardat-Yakshi disorder. Its very clearly stated that its addicting. Mating is a high for her, its result making her stronger,smarter, more powerful. Like fighting in a war too after having to kill people for awhile you start to become desensitized to death.
I can honestly say that while I was a EMT that blood began to not affect me it did before I got into that career path, and it to this day doesnt affect me like it did. After being out of it now on a daily basis however I do have to say my stomach to it isnt as tolerable as it was. Imagine dropping corpses for lunch over the course of 400 years. Its not normal to enjoy killng people as a human condition. Its something thats either breed into us, or something caused my a mental condition. Serial killers are not mentally sound. They ARE unstable. Alot are highly intelligent, in the case of Morinth also. They however are mentally unhinged somewhere to get pleasure for the idea of it. Again my Dexter reference. Dexter Morgan as a character is highly unsound mentally however he was able to have a person channel his bloodlust into a more "justifiable" means. Morinth is Dexter if he had not had the "Code of Harry" to follow.
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Ok, all very good points. My understanding of Serial killers is that their frontal cortex isn't fully developed. That doesn't mean that they are less in control of their actions then the average joe and it doesn't mean that they are unstable, just that they aren't fully developed. I think I centered on the literal interpretation of the word unstable coming from someone who suffers from a mental disorder that has influenced my behavior in ways beyond my control. Unstable is where you do things beyond your control. Where your actions are unpredictable and can often defy reason. Serial killers are predictable once you know enough about them. Their actions do not defy reason per se. Defy common decency, morality, yes, but typically not reason. There is often a logical reason that a serial killer is killing. Whether it is to right perceived wrongs or injustices like Jack the Ripper or something else. Their actions can be plotted as following logic. twisted logic that is often horrifying, but logic all the same.
Addiction is a weak justification for murder in any sense because addictions can be overcome. Any and all addiction in the real world can be overcome. Now Samara does tell you that Morinth can't overcome her addiction but this may be a case where someone uses a word and doesn't mean its full definition. It is possible that she doesn't mean that it is impossible to overcome her addiction but rather that it is highly improbable, even extremely difficult, to do so, something morinth may or may not be willing to attempt. This use of the word is extremely common and would be believable in this context.
GothamLord wrote...
Yes really. Shes a serial killer. Serial killers dont become what they are by being stupid. Most serial killers are highly intelligent, they however are mental disturbed. You act like outside of Asari Space police still arent going to look into murder investigations. Any civilized location she goes to shes going to have to keep a low profile. Omega has no real law and she kept her head down. You really think that was because of the girl's mother?? I doubt the mother was any threat to a biotic of her level.
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