232 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

Bigeyez wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Nice analogy. A bit lacking on the relevant issues though. Lemme see what I can do...

Okay, using your "coffee cup sleeve" example, let's say you walk into the aforementioned 7-Eleven and notice the advertisements for a free coffee cup holder with every new purchase of a cup of coffee. Enticed, you buy a cup of coffee and the clerk hands you your "free" coffee cup holder. You notice that it seems to be made out of old newspaper held together with paperclips and as you slide it onto your cup and attempt to take a sip it tears and spills hot coffee in your lap. You complain to the clerk that the coffee cup holder is poorly built and doesn't function as advertised and he tells you "Yeah brah, but it's free so like... you can't complain."

Or, to modify another of your examples, let's say you walk into the 7-Eleven intending to pick up some Pepsi and notice a coupon promotion for a Buy 1 Get One FREE deal where you buy a 2 liter bottle of Pepsi and you get a free 2 liter bottle of "New Pepsi Drink" along with it. You don't have a coupon but you're curious about the new beverage as the signage advertises it as great tasting and refreshing, so you decide to pick one up along with your Pepsi purchase. Since you lack the coupon, you pay full retail price for the bottle and upon opening it notice that it smells like sewage and tastes like ******. You remark to another customer that the drink is disgusting and he replies "Yeah, but you really can't complain 'cause at least it was free."

There, that's a little more relevant I think.

Good job for replying to something I wasn't saying at all in my analogy! TJ and the other poster are saying the DLC wasn't free, my analogy is showing them that it is indeed "free". Thats it. It has nothing to do with you not being able to complain. I've already said you have all the right in the world to complain about it, just like you could complain about getting a cup sleeve thats made of newspaper and paper clips or some funky drink.

What I'm against is the degree to which its being taken, (comparing it to Bioware taking a **** on you like people have said here) not that it's being complained about.

Soooo yeah...your analogies work and I don't disagree with them, but thats not at all what I was saying.

Except that it's not free, so that's factually incorrect as well. I won't bother elaborating as I already explained that concept quite clearly at the top of page 8, as well as more times than I can shake a stick at elsewhere on the forums.

Modifié par JKoopman, 30 mars 2010 - 04:27 .

[Bigeyez]

JKoopman wrote...

Except that it's not free, so that's factually incorrect as well. I won't bother elaborating as I already explained that concept quite clear at the top of page 8.

You said this

"Actually, yes they do. I paid them $60 USD when I purchased ME2. Part of the purchase agreement included access to the Cerberus Network and it's content. If the content provided by the Cerberus Network is not of sufficient quality, I have every right to complain about it.

More to the point, anyone who purchased ME2 second-hand or (for whatever reason, be it a spouse/sibling, etc) has mutliple accounts/gamertags on which the game is played had to purchase a $15 paid membership for the Cerberus Network and this "free" content and they are more than justified to complain about paying for obvious shovelware.

Any way you look at it, the "it's free" defense fails to stand up and apears to be nothing more than blatant BioWare ass-kissery. At the end of the day, the Firewalker pack failed to live up to most anyone's expectations by a wide margin and content of this poor quality should not be allowed to pass without comment, whether paid or not."

You paid $60 for the game Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 2 would have been at the $60 price point regardless of the Cerebus Network. The Cerebus Network was included into the $60 price point as part of EA's "Project Ten Dollar" in order to boost new sales of the game and to fight against used sales.

So yes for buying Mass Effect 2, brand new at $60, you got Cerebus access FOR FREE, or in better phrase, at no additional cost. Those are the terms of the incentive. You buy the game new and you get this access along with it at no additional cost. I really don't know how to explain this to you in any other way.

The ONLY people that paid for the "free" Cerebus DLC are the people who bought the game used and then had to shell out additional money for it, and yes they have all the right in the world to be up in arms if they think the product they did pay for in addition to the cost of the game was ****ty. Yes, even people who bought it new and got the DLC included with the regular purchase price have all the right in the world to complain about it being crappy.

I can't possibly be any clearer then that.

And I'm happy you completely ignored everything else I said in my reply and stuck to that one thing. Debate Rule 101 in effect again! Don't prove your right, prove the other side is wrong!

[blackcyborg]

well for me it was free as all the others so far... however i feel a bit{a lot} let down by the way one has to interrac with the firewalker , i was expecting more driving/flighying type of commands and like with the mako still no interior to look at , after a while it becomes boring , with all due respect it is not up to "MASS EFFECT" standarts... the product looks kind of we must give them something to play around, well not good enough this time.

[sirandar]

Bioware has yet to release a DLC that even comes close to the quality of the main story. BdtS was the closest and it was an OK shooter with a bad 1/2 developed story with one "decision".



Detailed well written DLCs are not a priority for Bioware .... they don't need them as a DLCs only purpose is to keep the game in public consciousness for a little while longer. ME1 and 2 doesn't need anything to keep in public consciousness because they were well done (mostly) and unique (mostly).



The team that brought you the main quest of ME1 and 2 has already moved on to ME3. There is no chance of any compelling DLC. None. Unless Bioware is willing to hire a new high caliber team just for DLC, I agree with their decision to move onto ME3. Makes economic sense and in the end their efforts focused on ME3 will make more people happy than 1/2 baked DLCs = WIN - WIN.



PS ..... When you buy a software title you are buying a license to the game not the game itself. One you buy the licence, anything released is part of that license (plus additional licenses) and is fair game for criticism.



Personally I wish Bioware would hire 2 new full teams, one just to make compelling main quest linked exploration quests, and one just to start recoding ME1 and ME2 so that after ME3 is released they can release a real ME1+2+3 compilation that would probably be the best computer game ever released. They would need to start about now to pull it off,



Sadly, it wont happen.

[TJSolo]

Bigeyez wrote...

You paid $60 for the game Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 2 would have been at the $60 price point regardless of the Cerebus Network. The Cerebus Network was included into the $60 price point as part of EA's "Project Ten Dollar" in order to boost new sales of the game and to fight against used sales.

So yes for buying Mass Effect 2, brand new at $60, you got Cerebus access FOR FREE, or in better phrase, at no additional cost. Those are the terms of the incentive. You buy the game new and you get this access along with it at no additional cost. I really don't know how to explain this to you in any other way.

The ONLY people that paid for the "free" Cerebus DLC are the people who bought the game used and then had to shell out additional money for it, and yes they have all the right in the world to be up in arms if they think the product they did pay for in addition to the cost of the game was ****ty. Yes, even people who bought it new and got the DLC included with the regular purchase price have all the right in the world to complain about it being crappy.

I can't possibly be any clearer then that.

And I'm happy you completely ignored everything else I said in my reply and stuck to that one thing. Debate Rule 101 in effect again! Don't prove your right, prove the other side is wrong!

When there are stipulations and critera to meet in order to qualify for a "free" item, it pretty much means that item is not really but part of a deal the buy and seller/maker agree upon. At which point it is free* but not free. This can be tough to understand seeing as there are two concepts going on; one being free* vs free and the other being the capability to empathize with situations that differ from your own.

* Disclaimer - Followed by rules of qualification.

[hoysexyjew]

@ the OP, If it's free, you can't b**ch about it.



Unless we're talking about healthcare...then it's ok.

[JKoopman]

@ Bigeyez

Chalk it up to a difference of perspective then. You look at the Cerberus Network as something added to ME2 after the purchase at no cost; I look at the Cerberus Network as something included with the purchase price the same as planet scanning or any other feature of the game.

Modifié par JKoopman, 30 mars 2010 - 08:12 .

[Noilly Prat]

Wow.

Look, I'm not a blind fanboy or an EA apologist.  I have zero interest in coming onto these boards to defend BioWare's honor against people who don't like what they do (and feel the need to share this with others on the BioWare message boards).  But when people start pitting themselves against logic, I will side with logic every time.  And some of the crimes against logic that I have seen committed on these boards are honestly astounding.


Firstly, I personally avoid using the word "free" to describe this or any other "free" DLC.  I think that "at no extra charge" is more appropriate.  Like it or not, this game would have been sixty US dollars anyway, with or without these little extras.  (Fifty, I suppose, on PC.)  And if the Hammerhead had not been included nor added later on in the form of DLC, I doubt many of us would have complained about it.  Most likely we would have just chalked its absence up to cut content, which is always a given in any game.  And, if you enjoyed ME2 fine enough before adding the Firewalker pack (or any particular other piece of DLC), can you really argue it's missing something without that content in the game?

I have seen these absurd analogies countless times on these boards.  They seem to me at least as common as the "it's free, don't complain" argument.  But before you start throwing analogies around, you should at least take a moment to consider whether they make any sense.  Comparing a piece of DLC which you choose to download and play to being slapped in the face or having garbage thrown at you makes no sense, unless you're the sort of person who asks others to slap you and throw garbage at you.  (In which case, I should think, you would waive any right to whine about it afterward.)

I have seen others make analogies with other consumer products, such as cars or TV sets (ie. "if you bought a car that was missing its transmission, doors, and steering wheel, and were later asked to purchase these separately...").  These analogies are equally poor, as they usually concern items which are vital to the functionality of the product in question.  The same certainly cannot be said for a few short vehicle-based missions in one shooter-RPG.  For this type of analogy to be taken seriously, we would need to assume that it's possible to get use and enjoyment out of the product for weeks without having access to some of its necessary parts (which, I should think, would disqualify those parts from "necessary" status).  If you can manage to drive your car around with no seats or steering wheel for weeks with no problems, why are you complaining that the seat and wheel, when you are finally given a chance to obtain them, are overpriced or simply not to your liking?  You obviously didn't need them before, or view them as something that needed to be part of your car to begin with.

Personally, I'm glad that BioWare chose not to make vehicle-based missions a part of the main game experience in ME2.  If they could have incorporated vehicular gameplay in such a way as to not drag down the overall game experience, I would have been fine with it, but usually vehicle segments in games don't fit well or are, at the very least, not up to par with the rest of the gameplay.  I would prefer having so-so vehicle missions as DLC extras rather than being forced to play clumsy vehicle segments during story missions.  This is my opinion-- others may differ, and that's fine.

Where I think people are going wrong is to isolate these missions simply because they are DLC and hold them up against the rest of the game, rather than simply thinking of them as additional N7 missions-- which, really, is what they are.  Are the Hammerhead missions really that bad compared with the other N7 missions?  If you saw people making multiple topics complaining about a particular N7 mission that was included with the game from the start-- let's say the one where you have to reactivate those shields to protect the colony from the solar radiation-- you'd probably think they were just being stupid.  Sure, the mission was short, simple, and utterly pointless, but it was just one of several little side missions.  The only difference I can see here is that the Firewalker pack is something we have to download separately, so for some reason people are expecting something that I don't think it was ever intended to be.

Now, again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to criticize a piece of "free" DLC.  I just happen to think that it's ridiculous to accuse BioWare of selling out or sacrificing their integrity because you wanted the DLC to be something else.  I also think it's perfectly reasonable to expect more from any paid DLCs (we'll see how the Kasumi one turns out soon enough), but as long as it's not coming at an additional charge, or retroactively ruining the rest of the game, it's a bit silly to whine about extra content that doesn't come at extra charge.

[Bigeyez]

JKoopman wrote...

@ Bigeyez

Chalk it up to a difference of perspective then. You look at the Cerberus Network as something added to ME2 after the purchase at no cost; I look at the Cerberus Network as something included with the purchase price the same as planet scanning or any other feature of the game.

I can buy that.

[Bryy_Miller]

This thread is still going? Whut?

[Masticetobbacco]

hey guise I heard healthcare in Canada iz free.
the doctors in Canada are so NOT second hand and underpaid u know. They iz like TOTALLY teh best in quality.
just pay 20% GST and PST guise on fcking everything, no big deal amirite?

[hex23]

EAWare_amirite wrote...

There are threads that seem to overlap, yes. Hammerhead and a bunch of other topics. I don't see why there is so much concern over this topic.
I can count and I don't count a billion of these threads. I see in this section 1 Hammerhead thread which is this one and a Mako for ME3 thread which is a few pages deeper. Two different topics, that have some overlap but are different.
The tone a person takes is their fault.
If the person is ill towards others just because they don't know the right place to post, it is also that persons fault, in other words your reaction is your responsibility.

Obviously not literally a billion. And I didn't mean there is a ton of threads about this particular topic. There is a ton of threads about the exact same things.....people hating the game, hating the Hammerhead, hating Bioware, saying EA is the devil, DLC should be free....whatever....we don't need different people saying the exact same thing in a new thread every day. Even people who would normally agree with what's being said aren't too likely to respond favorably to the same exact thread for the 20th time.

[EAWare_amirite]

There is a ton of threads about the exact same things.....people hating the game, hating the Hammerhead, hating Bioware, saying EA is the devil, DLC should be free....whatever...

Well just by reading the topics you listed they do seem to be separate things, just saying. It is not the posters fault that some of the people around here are not able to comprehend the difference between talking about the Hammerhead versus talking about EA. Lumping all of those together is just not right and not fair.

It looks like people expect to get flamed for posting around here; yet it is still done, why? Probably because the people posting want to think their ideas or problems will get read by someone at Bioware and they don't care if a regular forum person is tired of the rehashing.

Wouldn't hate be better used to describe a person that did not play ME products? Hate is just too strong of a descriptor to use just because a person does not like some aspects of a game, DLC, or company.

[fLoki]

Noilly Prat wrote...



Personally, I'm glad that BioWare chose not to make vehicle-based missions a part of the main game experience in ME2.  If they could have incorporated vehicular gameplay in such a way as to not drag down the overall game experience, I would have been fine with it, but usually vehicle segments in games don't fit well or are, at the very least, not up to par with the rest of the gameplay.  I would prefer having so-so vehicle missions as DLC extras rather than being forced to play clumsy vehicle segments during story missions.  This is my opinion-- others may differ, and that's fine.

Well i do belive Me1 did it quite well.. only problem people had were some of the planet terrains being hard to navigate but those parts were optional anyways.. So i dont get the point you're making

[Juztinb42]

Don't you people know that nothing is ever free? The time and resources spent creating this DLC could have been used for ME3 or another, paid-for DLC. You are paying for this DLC, you just don't know it yet.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Unless you did pay for it. Then you are continually paying for I assume?

[sirandar]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

hey guise I heard healthcare in Canada iz free.
the doctors in Canada are so NOT second hand and underpaid u know. They iz like TOTALLY teh best in quality.
just pay 20% GST and PST guise on fcking everything, no big deal amirite?

As a Canadian who is all too familiar with our health care system,  it is not all flowers and roses BUT whole families don't go bankrupt when someone gets sick.

The doctors in Canada may be high quality but actually seeing one can be a problem.  The last time I had a eye infection I used my dogs eye medication as the only other option was enduring the horrors of the hospital emergency.

Overall, my dog has far superior access to medical care in Canada (at a price)  and we pay a 500-1000$ health surtax every year at income tax time BUT private health care has its issue too depending on who you are.  These issues can be annoying to downright life breaking.   Both are broken IMO

PS  It is now GST and HST.   HST rough translates to even Higher Sales Tax

Modifié par sirandar, 30 mars 2010 - 11:00 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

I agree with this, Firewalker was terrible and the Hammerhead too. The Mako sections were fun the only problem was the terrain, the terrible controls and the lack of interesting places to go. There's 3 reasons I hated this DLC.



1. It was made too simple. There's no need to aim the game already does it for you with auto aim, the missiles are also already guided. BioWare should stop dumbing down things.



2. The missions were linear, I thought the whole idea was to fix planetary exploration not remove it and replace it with boring linear missions. I liked getting out of the Mako when it was too damaged or just for the fun of it. That doesn't happen in ME2.



3. Then there was the story which looked like we were going to find out something very interesting at the end. However nothing is discovered about the Prothean artifact. Then there's also the lack of dialogue for squadmates. Why put them in if they're not going to say anything at all.

[SnakDok]

I think this dlc is just a spin-off for future (and I hope) better use of the Hammerhead

[MsKlaussen]

Bigeyez wrote...

It's funny how people keep coming up with "comparisons" that are nothing like whats happening here.

"You'd complain about free tires that break!"
"You'd complain about a free slap to the face!"
"You'd complain about a free pile of **** on your hands!"

What, is this thread a reunion of Strawman arguements R Us or something?

Yes people getting mediocore free DLC is completely equal to getting faulty tires which could kill you, a slap to the face which would hurt you, and someone ****ting on you, which some freaky people might find sexy. Mhm. Flawless internet logic at work.

And the fact that you're using a Red Herring and style over substance arguments to invalidate the OP's opinion? What of that?

If you want to do a bitwise comparison of whether or not these examples are completely and literally equal to what the OP is talking about, I guess you have a point. However, if giving unbiased consideration to the spirit of what's being said is not the personal affront to readers it's beginning to seem like, it should be easy to see that the OP is saying that "Free" is not an All Access Pass that makes all around it irrelevant. And what do you know? It isn't. Particularly if what's being offered is something that was promised earlier, and with higher quality.

On that last point I can't really speak, because I've just begun the HH missions and I was in a laughing fit the whole time trying to control the thing. I think it has possibilities and will go beyond what's here - maybe even in ME3. But either way, I don't think people on a message board should have to shut up and deal because someone "did them a favor" if they don't feel there was anything gained or what was gained was no compensation for what was promised and not delivered.

Sort of reminds me how people hate being told "If you don't want to hear what's being said, don't click on the thread".  

Modifié par MsKlaussen, 31 mars 2010 - 01:41 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

hey guise I heard healthcare in Canada iz free.
the doctors in Canada are so NOT second hand and underpaid u know. They iz like TOTALLY teh best in quality.
just pay 20% GST and PST guise on fcking everything, no big deal amirite?

Seriously? Comparing a video game's content to medical quality?

[Darth Drago]

A repost in another similar topic.

“The Hammerhead is a heavy assault vehicle that hovers over the battlefield at up to 120 kilometers per hour and features a guided missile system ensuring accuracy even during aggressive maneuvering.”

Three examples of a heavy assault vehicle two real the other fictional.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Assault_Vehicle/wheeled_A5_Juggernaut
http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_aav7.php
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m551a1.htm

The Hammerhead is not in the same category, not even close.

After trying to play it for a second time through I stand by my original post.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/1866697/15#1874981

This thing is garbage.

Using the “its free so quit complaining” line is getting old. Free or not, crap is still crap.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 31 mars 2010 - 02:36 .

[MsKlaussen]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

hey guise I heard healthcare in Canada iz free.
the doctors in Canada are so NOT second hand and underpaid u know. They iz like TOTALLY teh best in quality.
just pay 20% GST and PST guise on fcking everything, no big deal amirite?

Seriously? Comparing a video game's content to medical quality?

Uhh, and again. Is it this hard to follow the train of thought these people are on? Not ripping you personally but I find it hilarious that people are trying to redirect the focus to the quality of the analogies being used and then using the results to attempt to invalidate the original point.

I feel left out. Let me come up with my own ridiculous analogy:

You spend $400 to buy Micro$oft Windows Vista Ultimate -

(I know - this is already patently ridiculous)

with the understanding that the TCP/IP stack is in order and so is the Hibernate functionality, because both of those features were touted as part of the super cool new operating system. You finish using the system the first day, engage the Hibernate function, and go to bed. In the morning, your default gateway settings have been wiped and your internet connectivity is gone. This happens every single time, and when you Google it, it turns out to be a bug (sorry bugs = false) "unfinished feature".

Who cares right? Since Service Pack 1 fixes it, and it's freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 

Nevermind the fact that these features were claimed to be operational on release date.

OR

M$ Windows is supposed to be secure, yet a Port 445 exploit lays your entire network to waste! Doesn't bother us though, because the patch is freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 

Nevermind the fact that the system was supposed to be the most secure ever and UAC was supposed to be able to control the effectiveness of buffer overflow expoits. Or the fact that the security problem wasn't really fixed because all M$ did was close port 445 by default.

(Feel free to remind me that exclusion of the Firewalker Pack was not a bug so my entire premise is invalid, ignoring the point which is that something promised at release and not delivered is not always made all better by slapping a quick simulacrum together sometime later and calling it a free add-on.)

To the OP and his supporters: Assuming Control ---> Your attempts to explain are futile. This product was created in and for the most pound foolish consumer base on the face of the Earth. It should not be a mystery why "free" is another word for "value". I know this hurts you...

Hmmm...if Jacob were here he would say to me right now, "You're done!"

Modifié par MsKlaussen, 31 mars 2010 - 04:01 .

[Bryy_Miller]

MsKlaussen wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

hey guise I heard healthcare in Canada iz free.
the doctors in Canada are so NOT second hand and underpaid u know. They iz like TOTALLY teh best in quality.
just pay 20% GST and PST guise on fcking everything, no big deal amirite?

Seriously? Comparing a video game's content to medical quality?

Uhh, and again. Is it this hard to follow the train of thought these people are on? Not ripping you personally but I find it hilarious that people are trying to redirect the focus to the quality of the analogies being used and then using the results to attempt to invalidate the original point.

I'm just saying it's a stupid analogy.