162 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

It's a mixed bag for me. I find them interesting, and make an effort to keep them all alive, yet I find it very easy to loose attachment with them as the game continues. This is mostly because you can finish all the dialogue between Jacob and Miranda very quickly, leaving the rest of the game full of "I'm busy, talk later" moments. And with Thane, Samara, since they're so late in the game, you don't feel that attached because you're already halfway through the game. (aka, making half of the game spent on recruiting, and the other half doing one loyally mission for each member, might have hurt the game). Legion only survived this because he's so damn cool.

Another problem is that none of them have any really connection to the main plot besides "We're all badas^#s, and you want our help." Period. Aka, none of them really care or have anything invested into doing the mission, beside "Hopefully we won't die" and "We're doing this for you." In Mass Effect 1, many of the characters had reason to go with you. In Mass Effect 2, it's "We get to fight impossible odds?... AWESOME!".

Also, 5 dialogue scenes just don't cut it when you're doing 10 recruitment missions, plus 12 loyalty missions. It worked in Mass Effect 1, because you had 5 missions to go through if you didn't do any side missions. This doesn't work this time, because like I said, it leaves "huge" gaps between when you can talk to them. It hurts even more when guy's like Garrus only has 3 dialogue scenes with you, unless you romance him. Same with Tali (who has 4 (non-romance), everyone else has at least 5). Which sucks, because those two are the ones you "really" want to talk to, and learn more about what they've been doing for the past 2 years.

Anyways, I still like them, and in some ways prefer them more then Wrex, Liara, Ash, and Kaidan. But for Mass Effect 3, I'd say my advice to them is add more then 5 dialogue scenes.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 mars 2010 - 08:44 .

[Starscream723]

I miss the elevator conversations they had with each other.

[Karstedt]

Nashiktal wrote...

Curse you Karstedt, it took me a moment to realize the satire in your post! Though I will note that I love Mass Effect 2, and that I find the new companions back stories interesting, I just do not feel the emotional investment I kept hearing the PR team talk about.

Indeed, it's much more difficult to spot the satire when I don't exaggerate and really just act like "one of those people".

But since your response entertained me momentarily, I will recount my thoughts as to why the ME2 minions lack luster. I think it's the banter between characters other than Shepard. Getting a whole bunch of dialog and story between crewmateX and Shep is one dimensional. Without seeing that character interact with other people, even if it's just a few brief banters, you don't get the same sense of an actual person.

[SL22]

Xaijin wrote...

well, It doesn't help when you're never going to hear half of that dialog, courtesy of parity to the Xbox version.

Has nothing to do with the Xbox, the problem is with DVDs.

I would have happily taken a third disc if it meant extra content, but kids these days are too fat to get up and occasionally swap a disc to continue playing their game.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nashiktal wrote...

So in the end, you get more overall but less for each individual. Less focused?

Comparitively there is more dialogue for each squad member.

For instance Garrus does not have much dialogue in ME 1 (nor ME 2 for that matter), but he also has a side mission in each game, the first has a couple of lines while the second has a lot more lines.

In ME 1 the LI's had quite a bit of dialogue but the others didn't.  Wrex was there to tell you about the Krogans and Tali was there to tell you about the Quarians.  Wrex also told you about a couple of exploits and he also had a bit of special dialogue in the missions.  

Most of ME 1 however and ME 2 has characters say the same relative thing on each mission.  Wrex tells you to kill Rachni, Kaiden tells you to spare, Ashley tells you to kill, Tali tells you to spare.  Also the side quests had one or two lines of dialgoue per mission in ME 1 (with a few having none), while only a couple occasions is this this case in ME 2.

ME 2 focuses much of the squadmate dialogue in there loyalty mission and some in recruitment mission with about the same to a little more on board the Normandy.

This might seem structurally unsound because much of ME 2 forces you (or eggs you) to do these sidequests which are the loyalty missions.  So while you spend a lot of time focused on one character in each mission, overall the others are left out, which really isn't that different from ME 1 except these missions are longer than the one in ME 1 and have more dialogue (Wrex has a couple lines, Garrus a couple though his vary a little depending on outcome and Tali only has a couple of lines on the ship after that mission sequence).

Also on each of the main story missions the characters in ME 1 had a couple of unique lines if you click on them while they don't in ME 2.  Also ME 2 lacks squadmate banter on the level of ME 1, there is some but you have to have the right combination at the right time.  This doesn't account for much comparitively but when you add up the missions there is more than a few special lines that are missed out from the standard ME setup of character dialogue as the storyline is basically in ME 1:

Eden Prime/Citadel/Therum/Feros/Noveria/Virmire/Illos/Citadel

WHile in ME 2 its:

Lazarus Station/Freedoms Progress/Horizon/Collector Ship/Reaper IFF/Collector Base

So yeah

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 29 mars 2010 - 08:56 .

[enormousmoonboots]

I'm not sure it has anything to do with humans, at least for me. I consider Miranda's loyalty mission with her sister quite poignant and melting the ice queen's heart a bit. Jacob's might have been better if he you know...talked about it. I get that he might not be one to share feelings (or have feelings, haha), but the guy just saw his father as a monster, and either killed or sent to prison. At the very least, he could have expressed his satisfaction to seeing his father put to justice more.

Not saying I didn't like them, I was pretty fond of them (Miranda's started to grow on me since I had her talk to her sister on my third run, I initially thought the part where you can urge her to talk was a loop and didn't realize you had to push her twice), they had lots of character and were pretty sympathetic, for the most part...but if it came down to it, I'd toss Miranda/Jacob/Zaeed/Jack/Thane/Samara like a hot coal for Garrus/Tali/Liara/Wrex.



Nostalgia goggles? Maybe. But I am really attached to Legion, Mordin, and Grunt, generally consider them on the same level of 'appeal' as the ME1 crew.



On average, love interest aside, the most consistently 'meh' characters are the humans; looking through those 'if the ship was exploding and you could only save five characters' 'only three for ME3' threads, the aliens are consistent favorites. There's usually only one or two humans in those lists, and almost always the person's love interest.



I don't dislike the humans, I just end up liking the aliens more.

[Nightwriter]

I think one of the reasons some people may not feel as attached to the ME2 characters as opposed to ME1 is the way the ME2 characters were presented.

You HAD to go after these people, for your mission, and you HAD to do their loyalty quests. It was required. This was what the game was about. This has the unfortunate side effect of sometimes making them seem less like people and more like have-to's. The limited dialogue with them doesn't help.

With the ME1 characters, they were introduced in much the same way as you met most of your friends in your life  - you met them and then you just sort of fell in together as you got to know each other.

I still liked the ME2 characters better, however. And I am in full support of loyalty quests/personal missions for ME3.

[Collider]

[quote]TMA LIVE wrote...

It's a mixed bag for me. I find them interesting, and make an effort to keep them all alive, yet I find it very easy to loose attachment with them as the game continues. This is mostly because you can finish all the dialogue between Jacob and Miranda very quickly, leaving the rest of the game full of "I'm busy, talk later" moments. And with Thane, Samara, since they're so late in the game, you don't feel that attached because you're already halfway through the game. (aka, making half of the game spent on recruiting, and the other half doing one loyally mission for each member, might have hurt the game). Legion only survived this because he's so damn cool.

Another problem is that none of them have any really connection to the main plot besides "We're all badas^#s, and you want our help." Period.[/quote]
Eh. For the most part, the ME1 squad mates were the same. Aside from Liara, they were pretty much just in the ride. You didn't even need to bring Garrus or Wrex.

Aka, none of them really care or have anything invested into doing the mission, beside "Hopefully we won't die" and "We're doing this for you." In Mass Effect 1, many of the characters had reason to go with you. In Mass Effect 2, it's "We get to fight impossible odds?... AWESOME!".[/quote]
I disagree.
Miranda - Cerberus.
Jacob - Cerberus.
Garrus - You are mostly likely friends or previously worked with him. At the very least, Garrus was impressed about how you took down Saren and gave the middle finger to the council when they deserved it. Not to mention you save him from dying. That's Garrus' debt. Garrus has always been one to see the big picture, I'm not surprised at all.
Mordin - You save his clinic and administer the cure. Both things he really cared about. Also, helping Shepard is a way to repent.
Jack - You save her from dying, and give her the Cerberus data (you may be able to not give her it, I'm not sure). She also likes killing things.
Grunt - You get him out of the tank (kind of like saving him) and he views you as a worthy battlemaster. He also likes fighting.
Tali - You saved her and worked with her (as well as helped out on Freedom's Progress), most likely on friendly terms.
Thane - You save him (possibly). Dying, may as well do something good in the progress. He wants to repent.
Samara - You save her from having to kill police officers. She also sees the benefit in stopping the collectors, being a Justicar.
Morinth - You save her from Samara, she also wants to eat your brains
Zaeed - TIM hired him. Money money money.
Kasumi - I assume TIM hired her.

I have to agree that despite ME2 being more emotional in general, the pacing was better in ME1.

Modifié par Collider, 29 mars 2010 - 09:05 .

[IccaRa]

The ME1 team didn't have any outstanding reason for being with Shepard. Ash and Kaidan were subordinates, they had to go where you went. You didn't even have to pick up Garrus or Wrex, and their reasons for joining you were altogether derpy and in no way integral to the plot. Same for Tali. She came cause... she wanted to? Liara is the only character who contributes narratively later down the line, but she didn't have to be a team mate to do that either.



So honestly the ME2 team's various reasons for joining are no more flaky than the original team, the distinguishing factor being that you actually need the ME2 team for specific reasons and actively seek them for said reasons.

[TMA LIVE]

[quote]Collider wrote...

[quote]TMA LIVE wrote...

It's a mixed bag for me. I find them interesting, and make an effort to keep them all alive, yet I find it very easy to loose attachment with them as the game continues. This is mostly because you can finish all the dialogue between Jacob and Miranda very quickly, leaving the rest of the game full of "I'm busy, talk later" moments. And with Thane, Samara, since they're so late in the game, you don't feel that attached because you're already halfway through the game. (aka, making half of the game spent on recruiting, and the other half doing one loyally mission for each member, might have hurt the game). Legion only survived this because he's so damn cool.

Another problem is that none of them have any really connection to the main plot besides "We're all badas^#s, and you want our help." Period.[/quote]
Eh. For the most part, the ME1 squad mates were the same. Aside from Liara, they were pretty much just in the ride. You didn't even need to bring Garrus or Wrex.

Aka, none of them really care or have anything invested into doing the mission, beside "Hopefully we won't die" and "We're doing this for you." In Mass Effect 1, many of the characters had reason to go with you. In Mass Effect 2, it's "We get to fight impossible odds?... AWESOME!".[/quote]
I disagree.
Miranda - Cerberus.
Jacob - Cerberus.
Garrus - You are mostly likely friends or previously worked with him. At the very least, Garrus was impressed about how you took down Saren and gave the middle finger to the council when they deserved it. Not to mention you save him from dying. That's Garrus' debt. Garrus has always been one to see the big picture, I'm not surprised at all.
Mordin - You save his clinic and administer the cure. Both things he really cared about. Also, helping Shepard is a way to repent.
Jack - You save her from dying, and give her the Cerberus data (you may be able to not give her it, I'm not sure). She also likes killing things.
Grunt - You get him out of the tank (kind of like saving him) and he views you as a worthy battlemaster. He also likes fighting.
Tali - You saved her and worked with her (as well as helped out on Freedom's Progress), most likely on friendly terms.
Thane - You save him (possibly). Dying, may as well do something good in the progress. He wants to repent.
Samara - You save her from having to kill police officers. She also sees the benefit in stopping the collectors, being a Justicar.
Morinth - You save her from Samara, she also wants to eat your brains
Zaeed - TIM hired him. Money money money.
Kasumi - I assume TIM hired her.

I have to agree that despite ME2 being more emotional in general, the pacing was better in ME1.
[/quote][/quote]

The Mass Effect 1 team my have come along for the ride, but they still felt like they needed to come with you in order to prove themselves, and because Saren ment something to them (He tried to kill Tali. He screwed Garrus's investigation because he was a Spectre, and is a disgrace to all Turians. And Wrex was hired to kill him, but finds out he was developing a cure. Ash lost her team on Eden Prime and wants some pay back. Kaidan... well, he's bland, so I got nothing). They at least had something invested into the plot. While with MS2 characters, they're there because of money, killing, honor, or friendship. That's it.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 mars 2010 - 09:22 .

[Collider]

Tali came for her pilgrimage, not to mention wanting to see the galaxy and help against Saren (who indirectly tried to kill her). Garrus and Wrex wanted to see Saren taken down.

Modifié par Collider, 29 mars 2010 - 09:22 .

[Nightwriter]

None of the characters in 1 or 2 are really integral to the story.

But they are integral to my experience of the story.

[Nashiktal]

Karstedt wrote...

Indeed, it's much more difficult to spot
the satire when I don't exaggerate and really just act like "one of
those people".

But since your response entertained me
momentarily, I will recount my thoughts as to why the ME2 minions lack
luster. I think it's the banter between characters other than Shepard.
Getting a whole bunch of dialog and story between crewmateX and Shep is
one dimensional. Without seeing that character interact with other
people, even if it's just a few brief banters, you don't get the same
sense of an actual person.

That could be it. The extreme
lack of any sort of interaction besides those initiated by shep... That
just made me realize how much the party members seems like talking
statues.

TMA LIVE wrote...

It's a mixed bag for
me. I find them
interesting, and make an effort to keep them all alive, yet I find it
very easy to loose attachment with them as the game continues. This is
mostly because you can finish all the dialogue between Jacob and Miranda
very quickly, leaving the rest of the game full of "I'm busy, talk
later" moments. And with Thane, Samara, since they're so late in the
game, you don't feel that attached because you're already halfway
through the game. (aka, making half of the game spent on recruiting, and
the other half doing one loyally mission for each member, might have
hurt the game). Legion only survived this because he's so damn cool.

Another

problem is that none of them have any really connection to the main
plot besides "We're all badas^#s, and you want our help." Period. Aka,
none of them really care or have anything invested into doing the
mission, beside "Hopefully we won't die" and "We're doing this for you."
In Mass Effect 1, many of the characters had reason to go with you. In
Mass Effect 2, it's "We get to fight impossible odds?... AWESOME!".

Also,

5 dialogue scenes just don't cut it when you're doing 10 recruitment
missions, plus 12 loyalty missions. It worked in Mass Effect 1, because
you had 5 missions to go through if you didn't do any side missions.
This doesn't work this time, because like I said, it leaves "huge" gaps
between when you can talk to them. It hurts even more when guy's like
Garrus only has 3 dialogue scenes with you, unless you romance him. Same
with Tali (who has 4 (non-romance), everyone else has at least 5).
Which sucks, because those two are the ones you "really" want to talk
to, and learn more about what they've been doing for the past 2 years.

Anyways,

I still like them, and in some ways prefer them more then Wrex, Liara,
Ash, and Kaidan. But for Mass Effect 3, I'd say my advice to them is add
more then 5 dialogue scenes.

This pretty much sums up my
feelings, hell Garrus was the one who irked me the most with his i'm
busy speech. He had such better dialogue this time around, it was just
so short!

Nightwriter wrote...

I think one of the reasons some people may not feel as attached to the ME2 characters as opposed to ME1 is the way the ME2 characters were presented.

You HAD to go after these people, for your mission, and you HAD to do their loyalty quests. It was required. This was what the game was about. This has the unfortunate side effect of sometimes making them seem less like people and more like have-to's. The limited dialogue with them doesn't help.

With the ME1 characters, they were introduced in much the same way as you met most of your friends in your life  - you met them and then you just sort of fell in together as you got to know each other.

I still liked the ME2 characters better, however. And I am in full support of loyalty quests/personal missions for ME3.

Also true. This turned our companions who are supposed to keep us emotionally invested, into a chore! A task that needed doing. *Oh honey! Its time to do thanes quest so he doesnt die!* 

[Collider]

TMA LIVE wrote...
The Mass Effect 1 team my have come along for the ride, but they still felt like they needed to come with you in order to prove themselves, and because Saren ment something to them (He tried to kill Tali. He screwed Garrus's investigation because he was a Spectre, and is a disgrace to all Turians. And Wrex was hired to kill him, but finds out he was developing a cure. Ash lost her team on Eden Prime and wants some pay back. Kaidan... well, he's bland, so I got nothing). They at least had something invested into the plot. While with MS2 characters, they're there because of money, killing, honor, or friendship. That's it.

There is no central villain in ME2, unlike ME1, so it's not quite the same. The game was structured more for Shepard to gain the squad mates's loyalty, not really loyalty against Harbinger. I'd consider someone saving you a more compelling debt than just revenge. Then again, that's more up to the individual.

[InvaderErl]

They all have the same number of ship dialogues as their ME1 characters + a loyalty mission. They talk more and their characterizations are stronger (not surprising since Mac Walters wrote the two of the best ME1 characters: Garrus and Wrex).

The only thing lacking is the squad banter, which was ****** poor in the first game except for a few brief moments but shouldn't have been removed all the same. Dragon Age is the only Bioware game in a long long while that's done it right.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 29 mars 2010 - 09:25 .

[enormousmoonboots]

Thane - You save him (possibly). Dying, may as well do something good in the progress. He wants to repent.

Samara - You save her from having to kill police officers. She also sees the benefit in stopping the collectors, being a Justicar.

I admit, I felt these two were a little contrived. I was getting all ready to show Samara the worthiness of my cause and kickin' rad persuasion abilities and she just comes out with "I sense you are telling the truth and that you have a worthy cause." :| Also, she just happens to have encountered the Collectors before so she knows exactly the danger you're up against, what a coinkidink. Thane just sort of goes "Well, guess I ain't doing anything better".



I do wish there was a little more variety of motivations between Hired and Saved Their Asses. I was actually really expecting to run into some kind of human merc who lost family to the Collectors or something like that. Garrus wanted to take down Saren, Liara wanted to learn about the Protheans and find her mother, Tali wanted to find out about the geth, Wrex was looking for a good fight. Not so much variety this time around.

[Xaijin]

SL22 wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

well, It doesn't help when you're never going to hear half of that dialog, courtesy of parity to the Xbox version.

Has nothing to do with the Xbox, the problem is with DVDs.

I would have happily taken a third disc if it meant extra content, but kids these days are too fat to get up and occasionally swap a disc to continue playing their game.

Wrong. EA didn't want to have a forced install, and royalties on a second disc aren't cheap. At all.

Modifié par Xaijin, 29 mars 2010 - 09:30 .

[Xaijin]

IccaRa wrote...

The ME1 team didn't have any outstanding reason for being with Shepard. Ash and Kaidan were subordinates, they had to go where you went. You didn't even have to pick up Garrus or Wrex, and their reasons for joining you were altogether derpy and in no way integral to the plot. Same for Tali. She came cause... she wanted to? Liara is the only character who contributes narratively later down the line, but she didn't have to be a team mate to do that either.

So honestly the ME2 team's various reasons for joining are no more flaky than the original team, the distinguishing factor being that you actually need the ME2 team for specific reasons and actively seek them for said reasons.

How is Garrus wanting to bring down Saren derpy, that's the whole ****ing point of Shepard's mission through ME until Virmire.


:/

Modifié par Xaijin, 29 mars 2010 - 09:32 .

[Xaijin]

Nightwriter wrote...

None of the characters in 1 or 2 are really integral to the story.

But they are integral to my experience of the story.

*DING DING*

[SL22]

Xaijin wrote...

SL22 wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

well, It doesn't help when you're never going to hear half of that dialog, courtesy of parity to the Xbox version.

Has nothing to do with the Xbox, the problem is with DVDs.

I would have happily taken a third disc if it meant extra content, but kids these days are too fat to get up and occasionally swap a disc to continue playing their game.

Wrong. EA didn't want to have a forced install, and royalties on a second disc aren't cheap. At all.

How am I wrong when you just proved I'm right? The problem is with DVDs and their tiny amount of space.

[Onyx Jaguar]

InvaderErl wrote...

They all have the same number of ship dialogues as their ME1 characters + a loyalty mission. They talk more and their characterizations are stronger (not surprising since Mac Walters wrote the two of the best ME1 characters: Garrus and Wrex).

The only thing lacking is the squad banter, which was ****** poor in the first game except for a few brief moments but shouldn't have been removed all the same. Dragon Age is the only Bioware game in a long long while that's done it right.

This

[Xaijin]

Has nothing to do with the medium, has everything to do with BEING CHARGED for them. M$ does the charging. For their console. Hence the problem is M$ and the Xbox, unless you like paying 90 bux for a three disc game. M$ decides how much royalties cost, M$ decided to charge per disc. Hate to break it to you but M$ and shared mem also the reason the textures look like ass.

Modifié par Xaijin, 29 mars 2010 - 09:36 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Xaijin wrote...

Tacos.

Ha ha.  Invader Zim FTW.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah DVD's are dirt cheap. However the Console Makers control the SPECIFIC facilities and that aint cheap. Back in the day Nintendo were complete bastards in this regard.