162 réponses à ce sujet

[InvaderErl]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Not to mention the fact that Liara gets over the grief of losing her mother in a nanosecond. I was like, "wow". She's over it as soon as it happens.

Oh, not this again!

She's not 'over it' she just sets those personal feelings aside for the sake of the important mission....something ME2 squad mates can't seem to do.

Oh snap!!!

I don't think he was asking her to spend the entire game WEEPING, but she should have had a reaction greater than "MOTHER!" when her mother did in fact croak right in front of her, after herself firing a few rounds into her. 

Its not the character's fault, its the game's fault for not building on what should have been one of the most dramatic moments in the story.

[jlb524]

InvaderErl wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


Not really.  They never had a moment in the sun as did the ME2 squad mates.  Their interaction was just paced along with major plot events.  Plus, you have the 'Virmire event' that brings them back up.

I was referring to the Virmire event as their moment in the sun. The game sort of forgets that they exist after that.

That's near the end of the game, though.  Some ME2 companions aren't as bad as others since they are recruited late, like Samara.  I really like Samara, probably b/c   1) She's not a romance option and thus will talk to a Shepard that doesn't want to get in her pants.  2)  She's recruited at the end so it 'feels' like she always has something to say and will continue with fresh dialog nearly up until the suicide mission begins.

[Xaijin]

Closure is overrated.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

That's the point of the loyalty missions, jlb.

I am aware of their point I just think it was a terrible idea and implemented poorly.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 mars 2010 - 10:55 .

[Collider]

I disagree, jlb. The loyalty missions gave an insight to these characters that deepened them and made me more attached to them.

Modifié par Collider, 29 mars 2010 - 10:56 .

[Xaijin]

Character introspection in an RPG is a bad idea?



:/

[InvaderErl]

jlb524 wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


Not really.  They never had a moment in the sun as did the ME2 squad mates.  Their interaction was just paced along with major plot events.  Plus, you have the 'Virmire event' that brings them back up.

I was referring to the Virmire event as their moment in the sun. The game sort of forgets that they exist after that.

That's near the end of the game, though.  Some ME2 companions aren't as bad as others since they are recruited late, like Samara.  I really like Samara, probably b/c   1) She's not a romance option and thus will talk to a Shepard that doesn't want to get in her pants.  2)  She's recruited at the end so it 'feels' like she always has something to say and will continue with fresh dialog nearly up until the suicide mission begins.

You can do Virmire half-way through the game.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Side quests are side quests, not necessary, they can make it out if you don't do them.

[kil_edward93]

personally i dont care for samara, jacob, miranda, zaeed, and i absolutely hate Jack-aka THE ****

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

I disagree, jlb. The loyalty missions gave an insight to these characters that deepened them and more me more attached to them.

Well, I'm going to disagree with you.  The way these missions were structured had me caring about a character for 10 minutes and then forgetting about them.  In general, I don't really care about most of them.  We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Collider]

Don't tell me seeing bringing Liara to Benezia didn't make you more attached to her. But if you wish, we'll agree to disagree.

[jlb524]

InvaderErl wrote...


You can do Virmire half-way through the game.

You can, and then Ash/Kaidan (the survivor) still has dialog with you.  In addition, you can save Virmire until last.  You have a choice how this is structured.  In ME2, you don't.  You have to do these little episodic loyalty missions.  If you do Miranda's loyalty mission first, you're going to go the next 23 game-play hours not talking to her or hearing anymore about her sister or her ties with Cerberus.

It's like a novel full of little short chapters where a character is introduced in each chapter but then dropped throughout the remainder of the novel.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Don't tell me seeing bringing Liara to Benezia didn't make you more attached to her. But if you wish, we'll agree to disagree.

Of course it did, but that's not my point.   I did Miranda's loyalty mission and became attached to her.  After that, there's nothing else from Miranda!   I lost my attachment as it was now focused on the next person who needed my help.  My attachements kept hopping from character to character and in the end I really didn't care about any of them, excepting maybe  two.

Seriously, were you atttached to Zaeed b/c of his loyalty mission?

[Collider]

Zaeed isn't quite the same. He's DLC and does not have any Normandy discussions at all. I did like Zaeed more with the loyalty mission, because that's all we got out of him really. I agree with you Mass Effect 1 was for the most part better paced, but I still loved the loyalty missions because they gave a glimpse into the characters and made them more real and believable to me.

[ratzerman]

jlb524 wrote...

I did Miranda's loyalty mission and became attached to her.  After that, there's nothing else from Miranda!   I lost my attachment as it was now focused on the next person who needed my help.  My attachements kept hopping from character to character and in the end I really didn't care about any of them, excepting maybe  two.

Same here.  In that regard, I think the loyalty missions backfired.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Not to mention the fact that Liara gets over the grief of losing her mother in a nanosecond. I was like, "wow". She's over it as soon as it happens.

Oh, not this again!

She's not 'over it' she just sets those personal feelings aside for the sake of the important mission....something ME2 squad mates can't seem to do.

Oh snap!!!

Why, I am sure I do not know what you mean... it's like you're saying I've mentioned this before or something... like we've had long, long discussions about this very thing in which I made the same complaint...

But - no one should get over it that fast, especially not a character like Liara! And especially since helping her with her grief and her showing you her pain could really bring you closer to the character!

It was like "Mom"! - BOOM! - dead! - over it!

She should put aside her personal feelings in the long run, yes, but not IMMEDIATELY.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Zaeed isn't quite the same. He's DLC and does not have any Normandy discussions at all. I did like Zaeed more with the loyalty mission, because that's all we got out of him really. I agree with you Mass Effect 1 was for the most part better paced, but I still loved the loyalty missions because they gave a glimpse into the characters and made them more real and believable to me.

But by your logic, just doing his loyalty mission would bring you 'closer' to the character, right?

The loyalty missions aren't bad in themselves and I don't have a problem with them, but add in the lack of character development after they are completed and then they become problematic, IMO.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Zaeed isn't quite the same. He's DLC and does not have any Normandy discussions at all. I did like Zaeed more with the loyalty mission, because that's all we got out of him really. I agree with you Mass Effect 1 was for the most part better paced, but I still loved the loyalty missions because they gave a glimpse into the characters and made them more real and believable to me.

But by your logic, just doing his loyalty mission would bring you 'closer' to the character, right?

Yea it did.

The loyalty missions aren't bad in themselves and I don't have a problem with them, but add in the lack of character development after they are completed and then they become problematic, IMO.

I agree. I'd love for friendships to develop ala Dragon Age even if you don't romance the character.

[InvaderErl]

jlb524 wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...


You can do Virmire half-way through the game.

You can, and then Ash/Kaidan (the survivor) still has dialog with you.  In addition, you can save Virmire until last.  You have a choice how this is structured.  In ME2, you don't.  You have to do these little episodic loyalty missions.  If you do Miranda's loyalty mission first, you're going to go the next 23 game-play hours not talking to her or hearing anymore about her sister or her ties with Cerberus.

It's like a novel full of little short chapters where a character is introduced in each chapter but then dropped throughout the remainder of the novel.

You know what, I'll concede that you have a point in regards to that they could have paced it better. Its not so much because a lack of characterization (because let's face in ME2 has more) but I think Dragon Age and KoTOR should be looked at as examples of how to do it right. ME1 had this pacing issue, just a bit less since it effectively STOPPED you from talking more than it wanted you to whereas in those two games I felt as if I was interacting the entire time.

Something for next time maybe.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

It was like "Mom"! - BOOM! - dead! - over it!

She should put aside her personal feelings in the long run, yes, but not IMMEDIATELY.

You can never have this discussion too many time!  But this is off-topic so here's my last spiel....

Do you ever talk to her afterwards?  I'm sure you do.  She's not like:  'Meh, my mom's dead....let's just move on.'  She's saddened by the events.  Also, next time playing the game, click on 'Investigate' and then 'Benezia' to see more Liara grief!!

[Onyx Jaguar]

Its added character development on top of what you get on the Normandy. if you don't do the loyalty missions you ahve roughly the same amount of character development as in ME 1 with the exception of fewer squadmate to squadmate interactions. Basically you could speedrun ME 2 just by picking up people and not doing the loyalty missions and it would be nearly the same squadmate experience as ME 1.

[InvaderErl]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Its added character development on top of what you get on the Normandy. if you don't do the loyalty missions you ahve roughly the same amount of character development as in ME 1 with the exception of fewer squadmate to squadmate interactions. Basically you could speedrun ME 2 just by picking up people and not doing the loyalty missions and it would be nearly the same squadmate experience as ME 1.

This.

[Collider]

Fortunately, with some planning and maneuvering, I can pace the character discussions better when I play ME2 again for the Shepard I'm going to import to ME3.

[jlb524]

InvaderErl wrote...

You know what, I'll concede that you have a point in regards to that they could have paced it better. Its not so much because a lack of characterization (because let's face in ME2 has more) but I think Dragon Age and KoTOR should be looked at as examples of how to do it right. ME1 had this pacing issue, just a bit less since it effectively STOPPED you from talking more than it wanted you to whereas in those two games I felt as if I was interacting the entire time.

Something for next time maybe.

Yes, that's really my only point.  I won't say that the characters in themselves were any better/worse than ME1 but the pacing (and the fact that some won't talk to you if you're not in a romance) doesn't help me feel closer to them.  You can create awesome characters but if the presentation and execution is lacking they can become forgettable.

[InvaderErl]

jlb524 wrote...

 (and the fact that some won't talk to you if you're not in a romance) doesn't help me feel closer to them. 

That happens in the first as well.

I know that you cannot have Ashley's 4th conversation (somebody correct me on the number if I'm wrong) or Liara's 3rd unless you want to get LOCKED into a romance with them. I'm sure the same applies to Kaiden as well.

Again something the ME crew needs to look at the DAO team at on how to do it.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 29 mars 2010 - 11:22 .