162 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It was like "Mom"! - BOOM! - dead! - over it!

She should put aside her personal feelings in the long run, yes, but not IMMEDIATELY.

You can never have this discussion too many time!  But this is off-topic so here's my last spiel....

Do you ever talk to her afterwards?  I'm sure you do.  She's not like:  'Meh, my mom's dead....let's just move on.'  She's saddened by the events.  Also, next time playing the game, click on 'Investigate' and then 'Benezia' to see more Liara grief!!

Actually, after our last discussion about this, I did this very thing and made sure to squint closely at the screen, examining Liara closely for the subtle expressions that you spoke of which were supposed to be so meaningful.

And I saw them. She did look sad, and yes, her dialogue was somber - though very calm.

It's just that, I didn't think this was near enough. It almost felt like something only the diehard Liara fans would notice. It actually made her character feel less real to me, somehow. I mean, Alistair grieved over Duncan for a significant, very believable, stretch of time.

[jlb524]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Its added character development on top of what you get on the Normandy. if you don't do the loyalty missions you ahve roughly the same amount of character development as in ME 1 with the exception of fewer squadmate to squadmate interactions. Basically you could speedrun ME 2 just by picking up people and not doing the loyalty missions and it would be nearly the same squadmate experience as ME 1.

Fine, my beef isn't with content but pacing.  It's hard to feel 'close' to Miranda when she hasn't spoken to me in 23 game play hours.  With her, it was 2-3 coversations, loyalty mission, a 'thank you Shepard' and then done.  After completing 9 other loyalty missions, the Collector base, etc. I just lost that lovin' feeling for Miranda.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Actually, after our last discussion about this, I did this very thing and made sure to squint closely at the screen, examining Liara closely for the subtle expressions that you spoke of which were supposed to be so meaningful.

And I saw them. She did look sad, and yes, her dialogue was somber - though very calm.

It's just that, I didn't think this was near enough. It almost felt like something only the diehard Liara fans would notice. It actually made her character feel less real to me, somehow. I mean, Alistair grieved over Duncan for a significant, very believable, stretch of time.

Just 'diehard Liara fans'?  You said you saw it when you squinted hard.  I thought it was quite obvious and I believe there are non-diehards that would agree with me.  

Yes, Allistair grieved over an extended time period.  Alistair is also a whiny and immature.  Liara decided to put off her grieving for the mission...like an adult.  Plus, you're comparing DA:O characters to ME characters which is a big 'NO NO' around here for some reason.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Thats because character development in DA > ME



^_______________^

[InvaderErl]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Thats because character development in DA > ME

^_______________^

Sssssshhh!

Don't let them know THAT!

[jlb524]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Thats because character development in DA > ME

^_______________^

Oh no!!!  You didn't!!!


I agree 120% though.

[Collider]

Depends actually. You can speed through the development in one or two goes with enough gifts.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Actually, after our last discussion about this, I did this very thing and made sure to squint closely at the screen, examining Liara closely for the subtle expressions that you spoke of which were supposed to be so meaningful.

And I saw them. She did look sad, and yes, her dialogue was somber - though very calm.

It's just that, I didn't think this was near enough. It almost felt like something only the diehard Liara fans would notice. It actually made her character feel less real to me, somehow. I mean, Alistair grieved over Duncan for a significant, very believable, stretch of time.

Just 'diehard Liara fans'?  You said you saw it when you squinted hard.  I thought it was quite obvious and I believe there are non-diehards that would agree with me.  

Yes, Allistair grieved over an extended time period.  Alistair is also a whiny and immature.  Liara decided to put off her grieving for the mission...like an adult.  Plus, you're comparing DA:O characters to ME characters which is a big 'NO NO' around here for some reason.

They missed a great opportunity for character development, IMO. We like characters for their feelings, and we bond with them by the sharing of feelings and experiences. If you thought Alistair was whiny, you had every opportunity to tell him so, which makes it okay by me.

Give the characters real feelings, and if they bother you, tell them so. Everything about the Benezia/Liara thing felt flimsy and cardboard, from the confrontation scene to the convo with Liara afterward.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 29 mars 2010 - 11:36 .

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Depends actually. You can speed through the development in one or two goes with enough gifts.

You could, but you didn't have to.  Plus, the DA characters still interacted with each other when you took them along.   After I finish Miranda's loyalty quest, that's it.  I have no other options with her and I can't really pace it better.

Nightwriter wrote...

They missed a great opportunity for character development, IMO. We like characters for their feelings, and we bond with them by the sharing of feelings and experiences. If you thought Alistair was whiny, you had every opportunity to tell him so, which makes it okay by me.

Give the characters real feelings, and if they bother you, tell them so. Everything about the Benezia/Liara thing felt flimsy and cardboard, from the confrontation scene to the convo with Liara afterward.

I just think Liara's lack of going all out with the emotions fits her character.  Of course, I'd like MOAR LIARA!!! but I don't think much else was needed there.  Liara's just different from, say, Tali who was more outwardly emotional emotional about her father's death.  I just think this is b/c Tali's more out-going and comfortable around others while Liara is not.  You don't have to like Liara, but it is what it is and she is what she is.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 mars 2010 - 11:43 .

[ratzerman]

Nightwriter wrote...
Give the characters real feelings, and if they bother you, tell them so. Everything about the Benezia/Liara thing felt flimsy and cardboard, from the confrontation scene to the convo with Liara afterward.

She's honoring her mother by remembering her for who she was before she was corrupted by Sovereign.  It's not cardboard, it's just how she deals with grief.  She's a quiet and reserved person.  So she's mourning in a somewhat quiet and reserved way. 

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

They missed a great opportunity for character development, IMO. We like characters for their feelings, and we bond with them by the sharing of feelings and experiences. If you thought Alistair was whiny, you had every opportunity to tell him so, which makes it okay by me.

Give the characters real feelings, and if they bother you, tell them so. Everything about the Benezia/Liara thing felt flimsy and cardboard, from the confrontation scene to the convo with Liara afterward.

I just think Liara's lack of going all out with the emotions fits her character.  Of course, I'd like MOAR LIARA!!! but I don't think much else was needed there.  Liara's just different from, say, Tali who was more outwardly emotional emotional about her father's death.  I just think this is b/c Tali's more out-going and comfortable around others while Liara is not.  You don't have to like Liara, but it is what it is and she is what she is.

Well, I would say that Liara is pretty up front, actually. She tells you she's attracted to you right away. She states things plainly, she's quite open.

And I do like her. This is largely due to you, however, and your insights. Before that her character was sort of out of focus to me.

But I guess what I mean is that if you're right, and Liara is just not as social, this would not result in her getting over her feelings more quickly. Just hiding her feelings more. Pushing Shepard away, not wanting to talk about it, closing down and withdrawing, but still feeling great pain. I don't think she's stronger, per se, than Tali, is what I mean.

[InvaderErl]

I think if she had rushed to her mother's side and they had a moment before she died that would have seriously helped. They didn't even need to say anything, but just more connection than "MOTHER!" would have really helped. They could have SHOWN Liara recomposing herself, all of those things would have the moment powerful.

Granted this is a technical element more than anything but it goes back to the scene being slapped together.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 29 mars 2010 - 11:54 .

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, I would say that Liara is pretty up front, actually. She tells you she's attracted to you right away. She states things plainly, she's quite open.

Right, but being up front about that stuff doesn't mean you'd be upfront about other things, like grief.

And I do like her. This is largely due to you, however, and your insights. Before that her character was sort of out of focus to me.

Then, I have accomplished something in all my years of posting!

But I guess what I mean is that if you're right, and Liara is just not as social, this would not result in her getting over her feelings more quickly. Just hiding her feelings more. Pushing Shepard away, not wanting to talk about it, closing down and withdrawing, but still feeling great pain. I don't think she's stronger, per se, than Tali, is what I mean.

Right, I wasn't saying Liara is stronger than Tali, just different.  Tali's reaction might even be the strongest of the two.  It's better to let these feelings out and deal with them than to hold them in and hide them.  Liara is doing the same thing in ME2 I believe (hiding feelings).  She might be just acting mature or she might even have trust issues...I'm not sure yet.  

[Nightwriter]

InvaderErl wrote...

I think if she had rushed to her mother's side and they had a moment before she died that would have seriously helped. They didn't even need to say anything, but just more connection than "MOTHER!" would have really helped. They could have SHOWN Liara recomposing herself, all of those things would have the moment powerful.

Granted this is a technical element more than anything but it goes back to the scene being slapped together.

Oh, I really agree with this. The conversation in the Normandy afterward wouldn't have stuck out near as much to me then.

You know, when Benezia called her Little Wing, it was the only thing in the scene that I think pulled on my emotions a bit. I wanted to ask Liara about that later. Sounded very sweet.

[jlb524]

InvaderErl wrote...

Granted this is a technical element more than anything but it goes back to the scene being slapped together.

You're right...that scene was rushed and slapped together, if I recall....the reason why Marina Sirtis's VA was a little off in some points (not her fault, just the way the scene was directed and executed).

[Collider]

ME2 scenes were better in technical aspects. The camera angles, etc.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

You know, when Benezia called her Little Wing, it was the only thing in the scene that I think pulled on my emotions a bit. I wanted to ask Liara about that later. Sounded very sweet.

I wanted to ask Liara a lot of things (especially in ME2) but the game wouldn't let me

Same could be said for other characters.  Shepard needs to be nosier in ME3.

Collider wrote...

ME2 scenes were better in technical
aspects. The camera angles, etc.

Definitely. 

Modifié par jlb524, 30 mars 2010 - 12:03 .

[InvaderErl]

jlb524 wrote...

 (not her fault, just the way the scene was directed and executed).

Definitely. The whole things reeks of "Holy crap, get this level finished NOW"-ness. I had to sort of do a double take when she died and the battle music kicked back in. Like, thanks guys.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 30 mars 2010 - 12:06 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Noveria overall was ten types of terrible, gameplay wise anyway.

[InvaderErl]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Noveria overall was ten types of terrible, gameplay wise anyway.

Yeah, the only reason some people remember it fondly is because of Anoleis, Gianna and Lorik.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You know, when Benezia called her Little Wing, it was the only thing in the scene that I think pulled on my emotions a bit. I wanted to ask Liara about that later. Sounded very sweet.

I wanted to ask Liara a lot of things (especially in ME2) but the game wouldn't let me

Same could be said for other characters.  Shepard needs to be nosier in ME3.

I know! I am forced to sit in my chair bitterly blaming whoever placed such development constraints on the game...

Though in all honesty, I have no idea who that is. EA? Bioware management? No clue.

[Sajuro]

Nightwriter wrote...

I am beginning to notice a pattern, Collider. Every time I visit a thread, and react to the topic in discussion in said thread, I check the posts to find that you have already said what I am thinking. This is very uncanny.

Now I am having an individuality crisis. And am beginning to suspect you can see into my mind.

Quick! What am I thinking right now?!

maybe you and Collider are actually on a reaper together, or you are two Geth personalities in the network.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Microsoft.

(in ME 1 anyway, Bioware's parent company was in the process of being bought by EA so in order to release ME during the Holiday season MS pushed that **** ouuuuuuuuut)

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 30 mars 2010 - 12:16 .

[InvaderErl]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Microsoft.

(in ME 1 anyway, Bioware's parent company was in the process of being bought by EA so in order to release ME during the Holiday season MS pushed that **** ouuuuuuuuut)

Really? I kind of figured ME1 got rushed but that's interesting to know.

Now I know.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah I can't recall if it was announced that the parent company was bought by EA right before or right after ME launched. The initial run of Mass Effect was published by Microsoft after that it was published by EA. There was also speculation that there was limited DLC because of the takeover, but Bioware has stated that they didn't have the workings in place to support much dlc.