468 réponses à ce sujet

[Suron]

funny you have to resort to posts like this.

learn to read. and learn to comprehend. read the first ME book..then play ME1..pay attention to cerberus stuff...then read book 2.

kids are so clueless..

the concept of cerberus...advancement of the human race..is a good cause.

the execution and cerberus in practice is not..mainly due to how TIM runs it.

cerberus, in execution, is anything BUT good.

are you really stupid enough to use them opposing the reapers as "proof" to them being "good" ?? lol you can't be that dumb....of course they oppose them...the reapers threaten cerberus too.

if hitler was alive and we were attacked by aliens and he joined in to fight them would you call him good too?

that's basically waht your logic is saying.

and it's stupid.

Modifié par Suron, 30 mars 2010 - 03:36 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trench Coat wrote...
This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

This is Pat Tillman.
A successful American Football player who threw his multi-million dollar carrer out of the window and joined the Rangers after 9/11. He was sent to Afganistan and killed there by friendly fire. He was 27.

Now, call America Evil.

Irrelevant. Cerberus is neither America nor the Tillman family.

So is Veetor. Were saving a galaxy here, not some freaky quarian.

There is no we, and Veetor was never mentioned in relation Cerberus as an organization, Veetor's fate is hinged on Shepard.


It's cute to watch you skate around like a mouse in a greased hamster ball but I'm still waiting on that ME3 video, dude.

Anytime now.

Proof remember; from video or 1st party BioWare interview.

Trench Coat suggested that Veetor has something to do with Cerberus. And he (unlike you) was right. Cerberus seems to be responsible for driving him totally nuts. But, as I said, in the bigger picture, it's irrelevant. Cerberus purpose is to ensure the survival of Mankind, at any cost. And they are doing their job. That makes them good for any human. Their immediate goal is to destroy the Reapers. That makes them good to any sapient liveform in the Galaxy.

As for the proof, you owe me one first. I mean Cerberus are white and fluffy!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 03:45 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Suron wrote...

are you really stupid enough to use them opposing the reapers as "proof" to them being "good" ?? 

Cerberus opposing the Reapers is not a "proof" to them being good. It's a sole constituent of them being good. A constituent, that any other power centre in the Galaxy apparently lacks.

Suron wrote...
that's basically waht your logic is saying. 

Here we go again... Logic can not be freaking somebody's! It's a science!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 03:51 .

[Xaijin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trench Coat wrote...
This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

This is Pat Tillman.
A successful American Football player who threw his multi-million dollar carrer out of the window and joined the Rangers after 9/11. He was sent to Afganistan and killed there by friendly fire. He was 27.

Now, call America Evil.

Irrelevant. Cerberus is neither America nor the Tillman family.

So is Veetor. Were saving a galaxy here, not some freaky quarian.

There is no we, and Veetor was never mentioned in relation Cerberus as an organization, Veetor's fate is hinged on Shepard.


It's cute to watch you skate around like a mouse in a greased hamster ball but I'm still waiting on that ME3 video, dude.

Anytime now.

Proof remember; from video or 1st party BioWare interview.

Trench Coat suggested that Veetor has something to do with Cerberus. And he (unlike you) was right. Cerberus seems to be responsible for driving him totally nuts. But, as I said, in the bigger picture, it's irrelevant. Cerberus purpose is to ensure the survival of Mankind, at any cost. And they are doing their job. That makes them good for any human. Their immediate goal is to destroy the Reapers. That makes them good to any sapient liveform in the Galaxy.

As for the proof, you owe me one first. I mean Cerberus are white and fluffy!

It's cute to watch you skate around like a mouse in a greased
hamster ball but I'm still waiting on that ME3 video, dude.

Anytime
now.

Proof remember; from video or 1st party BioWare interview.

[Spartas Husky]

Erm....everyone sucks... there simple answer lol

[Zulu_DFA]

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trench Coat wrote...
This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

This is Pat Tillman.
A successful American Football player who threw his multi-million dollar carrer out of the window and joined the Rangers after 9/11. He was sent to Afganistan and killed there by friendly fire. He was 27.

Now, call America Evil.

Irrelevant. Cerberus is neither America nor the Tillman family.

So is Veetor. Were saving a galaxy here, not some freaky quarian.

There is no we, and Veetor was never mentioned in relation Cerberus as an organization, Veetor's fate is hinged on Shepard.


It's cute to watch you skate around like a mouse in a greased hamster ball but I'm still waiting on that ME3 video, dude.

Anytime now.

Proof remember; from video or 1st party BioWare interview.

Trench Coat suggested that Veetor has something to do with Cerberus. And he (unlike you) was right. Cerberus seems to be responsible for driving him totally nuts. But, as I said, in the bigger picture, it's irrelevant. Cerberus purpose is to ensure the survival of Mankind, at any cost. And they are doing their job. That makes them good for any human. Their immediate goal is to destroy the Reapers. That makes them good to any sapient liveform in the Galaxy.

As for the proof, you owe me one first. I mean Cerberus are white and fluffy!

It's cute to watch you skate around like a mouse in a greased
hamster ball but I'm still waiting on that ME3 video, dude.

Anytime
now.

Proof remember; from video or 1st party BioWare interview.

AND...

[Arijharn]

Xaijin wrote...

No dude, it's on you. You'll find passive aggressive truisms of little (ie no) use in this particular venue.

Furthermore, I haven't stated anything in regards to Cerberus other than the racist loyalist tendencies displayed by certain members, including the apparent leader. So youcan stop attempting to grasp at a premise which doesn't exist in anything I've stated other than a butt-obvious parallel to historically extant regimes of the past.

In any case, all I've seen from the pro camp is logical fallacy combined with stereotypical "realist" (ie wannabe politico-nihilist) pandering that actually not only don't have a basis in the real world, additionally don't have no basis in the cogent narrative other than the basic premise of a human military bureaucracy is both lethargic and incompetent, wow what a shocking and unprecedented thematic development. Never seen that before in story or real life.

I've asked for extant refutation based on developer input and video interviews or game footage, and only received giant walls of letter based obfuscation.

Post proof or retract.

(hint: neither One time in the military I didn't get what I want, nor I'm easily indoctrinated (ironic) by people in authority telling me stuff without me checking the veracity nor I borrowed this other theory from a different venue is not proof)

There are no developer interviews specific on Cerberus... all pre-launch Mass Effect 2 promo's where about how this will be the 'dark middle chapter' and how they really listened to the fans.

 - This is the 'most' renegade of an ending, you can get. In it, TIM is much more focussed on ending the Reaper threat (although obviously he wants human strength as well). The crux of our argument is this: promoting human strength isn't bad in and of itself. I want to get along with the alien species of course, but you know... I'm not going to sacrifice myself for their ideals anymore than I expect them to sacrifice themselves for mine.

Where is your proof incidentally? The ultra-paragon viewpoint I've only ever seen are as 'filled' with 'logical fallacies' as ours.  People maintain Kahoku was a good guy, Cerberus is rogue and that the Corporal Toombs Akuze incident makes them to be inhuman monsters, but 'logically speaking' we've only ever been presented by a single viewpoint, but honestly how can we gain a proper accounting of what is happening if we only ever see one side?

Once again though, I direct you to the humanitarian aid that Cerberus funnels into community reconstruction in the wake of the Horizon incident, so it seems that Cerberus isn't as unapologetic, if you want to use that word, as you first thought.

[Nightwriter]

Ugh. Enough with the "they oppose the Reapers" thing.

Yeah. Cerberus doesn't want to die. Surprise. Neither did Bundy.

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Suron wrote...

are you really stupid enough to use them opposing the reapers as "proof" to them being "good" ?? 

Cerberus opposing the Reapers is not a "proof" to them being good. It's a sole constituent of them being good. A constituent, that any other power centre in the Galaxy apparently lacks.

Suron wrote...
that's basically waht your logic is saying. 

Here we go again... Logic can not be freaking somebody's! It's a science!

Dude. words can have more than one definition.  Someone's logic is described as their thought process behind a decision or statement. Logic is scientific.  They are both right. Logic can indeed be somebody's, but it isn't the same meaning as scientific logic.  You're forgetting the complexity of the english language. 

[Arijharn]

Suron wrote...

are you really stupid enough to use them opposing the reapers as "proof" to them being "good" ?? lol you can't be that dumb....of course they oppose them...the reapers threaten cerberus too.

if hitler was alive and we were attacked by aliens and he joined in to fight them would you call him good too?

that's basically waht your logic is saying.

and it's stupid.

Since I was the one who mentioned that they're against Reapers I'll assume that was directed to me. If so, how am I 'dumb,' because what exactly has the System's Alliance done? What has the Council done?

The System's Alliance investigated Horizon because Cerberus tricked the Alliance (or forced their hand)when it was leaked Cerberus had the Alliance's best (Cmdr. Shephard) willingly working for them and will be moving into Horizon at some point.

And your analogy is retarded frankly... mainly because if the aliens were actively attacking Earth you would have to be incredibly obtuse not to look outside and see evidence of flashes in orbit... and the destruction of your cities. We're talking about a secret war here that really shouldn't be secret.

But to be fair, if Hitler did throw in his support (of which would be substantial) then you'd have to take it into some consideration if you could really consider yourself fair minded (I mean, theoretically you could even say you were relieved if he sent his forces alongside you to fight the aliens). Will he get away scott-free? Of course not... but instead of a mandated death penalty, he might serve life imprisonment without parole instead. Unless of course, you would be so 'dumb' as to refuse potential military support because you don't like the person, because surely your objectives would have higher reacher consequences than just trying to get along with the guy.

[Xaijin]

Arijharn wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

No dude, it's on you. You'll find passive aggressive truisms of little (ie no) use in this particular venue.

Furthermore, I haven't stated anything in regards to Cerberus other than the racist loyalist tendencies displayed by certain members, including the apparent leader. So you can stop attempting to grasp at a premise which doesn't exist in anything I've stated other than a butt-obvious parallel to historically extant regimes of the past.

In any case, all I've seen from the pro camp is logical fallacy combined with stereotypical "realist" (ie wannabe politico-nihilist) pandering that actually not only don't have a basis in the real world, additionally don't have no basis in the cogent narrative other than the basic premise of a human military bureaucracy is both lethargic and incompetent, wow what a shocking and unprecedented thematic development. Never seen that before in story or real life.

I've asked for extant refutation based on developer input and video interviews or game footage, and only received giant walls of letter based obfuscation.

Post proof or retract.

(hint: neither One time in the military I didn't get what I want, nor I'm easily indoctrinated (ironic) by people in authority telling me stuff without me checking the veracity nor I borrowed this other theory from a different venue is not proof)

There are no developer interviews specific on Cerberus... all pre-launch Mass Effect 2 promo's where about how this will be the 'dark middle chapter' and how they really listened to the fans.

 - This is the 'most' renegade of an ending, you can get. In it, TIM is much more focussed on ending the Reaper threat (although obviously he wants human strength as well). The crux of our argument is this: promoting human strength isn't bad in and of itself. I want to get along with the alien species of course, but you know... I'm not going to sacrifice myself for their ideals anymore than I expect them to sacrifice themselves for mine.

Where is your proof incidentally? The ultra-paragon viewpoint I've only ever seen are as 'filled' with 'logical fallacies' as ours.  People maintain Kahoku was a good guy, Cerberus is rogue and that the Corporal Toombs Akuze incident makes them to be inhuman monsters, but 'logically speaking' we've only ever been presented by a single viewpoint, but honestly how can we gain a proper accounting of what is happening if we only ever see one side?

Once again though, I direct you to the humanitarian aid that Cerberus funnels into community reconstruction in the wake of the Horizon incident, so it seems that Cerberus isn't as unapologetic, if you want to use that word, as you first thought.

You contend that I've settled on Cerberus is evil. Apparently you haven't read the entirety of what I've posted. I haven't stated anything about Cerberus the organization that isn't outside the game or books, and moreover, I've pointed out that certain members of the organization are overtly unabashedly racist loyalist, and not much more, and then asked for proof from three different people about how the organization is good as stated by a developer which will make it canonical "fact". Not only has nothing been produced, which means said statement are, in fact nothing more than opinion dressed as "absolute fact"

I've never asked whether nor stated that Cerberus is evil. I've asked for IRREFUTABLE proof they are good, all that's been returned is passive aggressive trolling behavior.

My "proof" is in the game, proof is in the literature the attends the game, which gaggles of folks other than myself have linked to repeatedly over the pages of this gigantic troll thread, in both game and book. Since I'm neither bored nor am I interested in troll baiting, the premise has been rather simple and clean. If Zulu feels like getting himself banned, that's really neither here nor there.

You like the rest, have failed to bring anything other than speculation based on sophistry.

All I'm asking for is absolute PROOF as asserted by the topic, that Cerberus is good by any factual scale as supported wholly by BioWare.

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 mars 2010 - 04:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Suron wrote...

are you really stupid enough to use them opposing the reapers as "proof" to them being "good" ?? 

Cerberus opposing the Reapers is not a "proof" to them being good. It's a sole constituent of them being good. A constituent, that any other power centre in the Galaxy apparently lacks.

Suron wrote...
that's basically waht your logic is saying. 

Here we go again... Logic can not be freaking somebody's! It's a science!

Dude. words can have more than one definition.  Someone's logic is described as their thought process behind a decision or statement. Logic is scientific.  They are both right. Logic can indeed be somebody's, but it isn't the same meaning as scientific logic.  You're forgetting the complexity of the english language. 

Popular misuse of the term "logic" doesn't make it have a second meaning. Nor I am going to take that "second meaning" into account when such fearsome words as "fallacy" are flying around.

[Big Yam]

Xaijin wrote...

In any case, all I've seen from the pro camp is logical fallacy combined with stereotypical "realist" (ie wannabe politico-nihilist) pandering that actually not only don't have a basis in the real world, additionally don't have no basis in the cogent narrative other than the basic premise of a human military bureaucracy is both lethargic and incompetent, wow what a shocking and unprecedented thematic development. Never seen that before in story or real life.

You've got to be pretty naive or a college liberal to believe that.   Groups like Cerberus can become dangerous if they are too  big, but are necessary in small capacities.  Nations don't run on love or moralistic fantasies. 

[Xaijin]

Did the last sentence slip by you there?

The incompetence of the Alliance is pretty overt, the fact that the Alliance also has Cerberus sympathizers and operatives is in the CODEX. As for real life, I guess wars are just accidental misunderstandings?

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 mars 2010 - 04:41 .

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Popular misuse of the term "logic" doesn't make it have a second meaning. Nor I am going to take that "second meaning" into account when such fearsome words as "fallacy" are flying around.

Hmm. I don't think it is being misused. I think this is one of its meanings.

And even if it was misused, it has been "misused" so long and so popularly it is no longer a misuse.

[Mallissin]

Do not mistake failure as incompetence. Doing the right thing and not succeeding is still a step in the right direction.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Popular misuse of the term "logic" doesn't make it have a second meaning. Nor I am going to take that "second meaning" into account when such fearsome words as "fallacy" are flying around.

Hmm. I don't think it is being misused. I think this is one of its meanings.

And even if it was misused, it has been "misused" so long and so popularly it is no longer a misuse.

Man, you may be right, or you may be wrong. It depends on whether your last statement is a logical paradox, or a logical fallacy. I'm scenting to it being a fallacy.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 04:54 .

[Xaijin]

The Alliance doesn't always do the right thing: SR1, cult, biotics, moonbase, your team, colonial outreach support, sending one guy to stop a threat that is a known quantity via intelligence. Incompetence, not covering Hackett telling you to go in shooting, not covering the inspector ****ing about why the SR1 isn't covered in Turian baby blood yet.

[Zulu_DFA]

Mallissin wrote...

Do not mistake failure as incompetence. Doing the right thing and not succeeding is still a step in the right direction.

Oh, come on! A true hero always succeeds, and makes everyone happy in the process. Even if by a repetitive quickload!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 04:56 .

[Arijharn]

Editing to actually make sense...

Xaijin wrote...
You contend that I've settled on Cerberus is evil. Apparently you haven't read the entirety of what I've posted. I haven't stated anything about Cerberus the organization that isn't outside the game or books, and moreover, I've pointed out that certain members of the organization are overtly unabashedly racist loyalist, and not much more, and then asked for proof from three different people about how the organization is good as stated by a developer which will make it canonical "fact". Not only has nothing been produced, which means said statement are, in fact nothing more than opinion dressed as "absolute fact"

I have provided proof, the link to youtube that Cerberus has got goals other than simple human dominance, i.e., destruction of Reapers (ie., not driven by racist thoughts... although with the end result of wanting to be more than just a bit player). Don't try to sly play the fact that that isn't your intent by labelling the fact that they're racist by putting a smart cross out on the word, since you've done it twice.

In other words, there are no ways of categorically supporting or denying your position if there are no sources, period of the things you suggest.  This is not, as you are leading us to believe, an error in our position, it's a lack of readily available sources.

Xaijin wrote...
I've never asked whether nor stated that Cerberus is evil. I've asked for IRREFUTABLE proof they are good, all that's been returned is passive aggressive trolling behavior.

My "proof" is in the game, proof is in the literature the attends the game, which gaggles of folks other than myself have linked to repeatedly over the pages of this gigantic troll thread, in both game and book. Since I'm neither bored nor am I interested in troll baiting, the premise has been rather simple and clean. If Zulu feels like getting himself banned, that's really neither here nor there.

You like the rest, have failed to bring anything other than speculation based on sophistry.

All I'm asking for is absolute PROOF as asserted by the topic, that Cerberus is good by any factual scale as supported wholly by BioWare.

I can't provide proof because I have the xbox 360 version of the game but I'll re-iterate to you to the fact to play Horizon to completion and read the end Mission Complete screen. I'm of course assuming that humanitarian aid is good, so there you go Cerberus is good on your imposed factual scale.

Amusingly, I did try to find youtube footage, but not one sample I saw showed the player scrolling down the sections. Also I couldn't find anything on images as well, but I guess pictures of the mission complete screen isn't interesting enough.

The proof is there (no mention of mission complete screens on Mass Effect wikia as well), however, due to the fact that I have the 360 version, I can not actually provide you proof without actually directing you to see it yourself. Unfortunately as it stands I can only show you the direction, it's up to you to actually look.

Modifié par Arijharn, 30 mars 2010 - 05:00 .

[Mallissin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Do not mistake failure as incompetence. Doing the right thing and not succeeding is still a step in the right direction.

Oh, come on! A true hero always succeeds, and makes everyone happy in the process. Even if by a repetitive quickload!

*Hits ESC, opens the Load menu and selects a save before this conversation starts*

[Arijharn]

Mallissin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Do not mistake failure as incompetence. Doing the right thing and not succeeding is still a step in the right direction.

Oh, come on! A true hero always succeeds, and makes everyone happy in the process. Even if by a repetitive quickload!

*Hits ESC, opens the Load menu and selects a save before this conversation starts*

Heh, it is quite contentious isn't it? Oh no, I support Cerberus' goals, therefore I must be morally bankrupt!

[Xaijin]

1. Financial aid to support political pandering is neither good nor evil, the Council and the Alliance have also provided financial support to colonies and vets respectively. The Blood Packs give vorcha gainful employment and skills. Strange cause BioWare makes me end up shooting them to progress in the game... a lot. Try again.

2. Members of Cerberus are racists loyalists, including the apparent leader, other members are not. Ergo, neither application is proof in either direction.

3. You yourself basically stated there are no developer comments, other than what is implied in game. IE Anything is speculation or opinion. IE, there is no actual proof, IE giant troll thread is successful.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

I can't provide proof because I have the xbox 360 version of the game but I'll re-iterate to you to the fact to play Horizon to completion and read the end Mission Complete screen. I'm of course assuming that humanitarian aid is good, so there you go Cerberus is good on your imposed factual scale.

Hmm... You bothered.

I don't think Cerberus haters will take it seriously.

TIM aids to rebuild Horizon? That's because he wants to build secret laboratories there.

TIM donates to the poor? Yeah, the selfish bastard tries to earn a good public image to run for president and then turn the state into totalitarian dictatorship.

TIM saves kittens? Sure he wants to create an army of kittens to invade alien homeworlds and unleash these beasts of war on alien babies!

Because, Cerberus cannot be trusted, you humans are all racist! And you, sir, are blight!!!
It's in the game, and it's the Canon now!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 05:19 .