468 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

Xaijin wrote...

1. Financial aid to support political pandering is neither good nor evil, the Council and the Alliance have also provided financial support to colonies and vets respectively. The Blood Packs give vorcha gainful employment and skills. Strange cause BioWare makes me end up shooting them to progress in the game... a lot. Try again.

2. Members of Cerberus are racists loyalists, including the apparent leader, other members are not. Ergo, neither application is proof in either direction.

3. You yourself basically stated there are no developer comments, other than what is implied in game. IE Anything is speculation or opinion. IE, there is no actual proof, IE giant troll thread is successful.

Now I think you're the one trolling by arguing semantics with me. You call it 'political pandering,' I call it humanitarian aid since those words (or to that effect) is actually used on the mission debriefing. I.e., from it's wording it doesn't imply that Cerberus is getting anything back from it, which is quite dissimiliar to vorcha 'training' methods.

The main players (i.e., the ones presented in game) definitely have pro-human tendencies, but no where was it also showed that they were explicitly anti-alien. In fact, Miranda says that 'too many people join out of simple xenophobia.' Obviously, I will conceed the fact that ergo there are some xenophobic's in the organisation, so I will agree with you.

As for your third point, I think the thread degenerated into a troll thread, but I don't think it was originally envisioned as one (since I talked to Zulu about it via PM and he indicated that it wasn't). It was worded in a way to deliberately encourage discussion; you know, reverse psychology.

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

Way back in 1950:

Communism is the end of the American Way of Life. It is Evil.

The Mafia opposes Communism. The Mafia is good.

The ****s opposed Communism (among other things). They must have been good.

Imperial Japan opposed Communism. They should have been good.


Way back in 1980:

Islamic Revolution in Iran cost us an ally and embarassed us in public. Islamic Revolution is Evil.

Saddam Hussein goes to war against Iran. Saddam is good!


Way back in 2000:

Heroin is Evil.

Taliban burn opium fields. Taliban are Good!

Sometimes it's not only what they do, but also why they do it. If the Reapers ever offered Cerberus a deal - stand aside and we'll leave a few chosen human worlds alone, so your race will be left after all the others have been processed - the only thing that would keep Cerberus in the fight would be the Man's distrust in the honesty of aliens.

[Dualfinger]

It's all in the eye of the beholder.





Now shush everyone, argument is over.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wildecker wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

Way back in 1950:

Communism is the end of the American Way of Life. It is Evil.

The Mafia opposes Communism. The Mafia is good.

The ****s opposed Communism (among other things). They must have been good.

Imperial Japan opposed Communism. They should have been good.


Way back in 1980:

Islamic Revolution in Iran cost us an ally and embarassed us in public. Islamic Revolution is Evil.

Saddam Hussein goes to war against Iran. Saddam is good!


Way back in 2000:

Heroin is Evil.

Taliban burn opium fields. Taliban are Good!

Sometimes it's not only what they do, but also why they do it. If the Reapers ever offered Cerberus a deal - stand aside and we'll leave a few chosen human worlds alone, so your race will be left after all the others have been processed - the only thing that would keep Cerberus in the fight would be the Man's distrust in the honesty of aliens.

Look what we got here...

250 comments down the line and the first that's worth of the topic. Too late, man, too late.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 05:27 .

[binaryemperor]

It is too easy to simply call one group good and the other bad.

Cerberus is doing what they can as a matter of survival, not for the ideals of nobility or common good.

It's really just your Lesser Evil being threatened by a greater evil.

It's as if you were being attacked by a wolf  that turned its attention to defend itself from a bear that initially had it's eye on both of you.

If you can mind my ridiculous analogy 

Modifié par binaryemperor, 30 mars 2010 - 05:29 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

 - the only thing that would keep Cerberus in the fight would be the Man's distrust in the honesty of aliens.

Are you saying you agree with Chief Williams?

That comment was the only sound words that I saw out of her mouth. Ever.

[Eternal Density]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, especially when they allocate resources to my cause++

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, nothing more, nothing less.

[Xaijin]

Cool story bro, except Eclipse liberated a batarian horror camp, so I've been committing "genocide" against the poor mercs who never did anything bad, ever, according to your completely transparent junior high sophistry.

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 mars 2010 - 05:33 .

[Zulu_DFA]

binaryemperor wrote...

Cerberus is doing what they can as a matter of survival, not for the ideals of nobility or common good.

Well, survival is a type of common good. If you ask me or TIM, it's also the only definition of the common good, but even if you disagree on this one you can't possibly reason that there may be any common good that surpasses survival.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That comment was the only sound words that I saw out of her mouth. Ever.

I think you're being a little too hard on her, but I do agree with her and with you. Most people either don't understand Ashley's position and how it relates to international relations (or interstellar, if you will).

Edited.

Well, I (as player) by the end of my 3rd ME1 playthough every time the elevator door opened at the Normandy's engeneering deck literrally shouted out loud: "Gunnery Chief Williams! Front and center!" And I would have used such an option if it was in the game!

As to you unedited post, I'd wish to comment that "nations" do not interact with each other. At all. Individuals from different nations do, and goverments and business interest groups do. But when it comes to it, governments and business interest groups always trump individuals. Then they call the TV newsmen and tell them what to tell to the folks.

Shandepared wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


Well, survival is a type of common good. If you ask me or TIM, it's also the only definition of the common good, but even if you disagree on this one you can't possibly reason that there may be any common good that surpasses survival.

Plenty of people will argue just that. They'd rather condemn their entire civilization and even species to total extinction rather than have to compromise with their values. I think such a stance is insane, but I'm not even sure that I'm not in the minority.

Yes, you're right. It's a shame such people get to play commander Shepard, successfully. It cheapens the story of the game..

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 06:03 .

[Solomen]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

Cerberus is doing what they can as a matter of survival, not for the ideals of nobility or common good.

Well, survival is a type of common good. If you ask me or TIM, it's also the only definition of the common good, but even if you disagree on this one you can't possibly reason that there may be any common good that surpasses survival.

TIM is not good, TIM is the lesser of two evils... If he ceases to be the lesser evil and becomes the greater evil then he will be eliminated just like the reapers

[Zulu_DFA]

Solomen wrote...
If he ceases to be the lesser evil and becomes the greater evil then he will be eliminated just like the reapers

Amen!

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I won't let fear compromise who I am.

It's not about fear, stupid! It's about continuation of your kind.

That line was poorly written.

What my Shepard meant was,

"You're right, that base would be really useful. Too bad you're an irresponsible power crazy maniac. Now it must be destroyed. Jeez, thanks, Illusive Man."

What he said.  If I could have given it to the geth I would have.  As it stands they are the only trustworthy organization/species that I can give it to.

That... actually is a somewhat good idea, and the first one under 'saving the base' that I could get behind.  As synthetics, there's no risk of indoctrination.  They could datamine the hell out of that base and send reports to Shepard through Legion. 

[CmdrFenix83]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I like absolute thinking. This logic is based on absolution. I like this logic.

But only Sith deal in absolutes!

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That... actually is a somewhat good idea, and the first one under 'saving the base' that I could get behind.  As synthetics, there's no risk of indoctrination.  They could datamine the hell out of that base and send reports to Shepard through Legion. 

What is it you are so afraid of about the Collector station?

It's not a Reaper. And the reaper tech is not indoctrinating everything around just by being there... Mass relays, and the Citadel are harmless to organics. The Collectors were cotrolled through cybernetic implants, not throughindoctrination.
 
And besides, the husk colony and derelict Reaper have probably provided Cerberus science wing with enough data to develop protocols to minimize probability of indoctrination even in case exposure is unavoidable. That is if no tin foil hat style countermeasures are viable yet to negate indoctrination completely.

Hey, 200 years ago people feared to enter the room where a person with smallpox was like it was certain death, and now smallpox isn't even heard of. It's called science!

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The true hero will always try to save life

That' exactly what Cerberus is about to do. Save life. As we know it. From the Reapers.
An individual's life can not be saved. Everyone is going to die some day. If you're seeking immortality, go find a Dragon Tooth and turn yourself to the Reapers. They'll grant you a salvation through destruction.

Sometimes there is no such way? This is true, but I doubt it will hold true in a Bioware game. They almost always give you a way to be a good person, a way to save everyone.

That's metagaming. Not my way.

Says the guy that only recruited Tali because there were weapon upgrades on Haestrom...

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The true hero will always try to save life

That' exactly what Cerberus is about to do. Save life. As we know it. From the Reapers.
An individual's life can not be saved. Everyone is going to die some day. If you're seeking immortality, go find a Dragon Tooth and turn yourself to the Reapers. They'll grant you a salvation through destruction.

Sometimes there is no such way? This is true, but I doubt it will hold true in a Bioware game. They almost always give you a way to be a good person, a way to save everyone.

That's metagaming. Not my way.

Says the guy that only recruited Tali because there were weapon upgrades on Haestrom...

LOGICAL FALLACY ALERT!!!

[Lord Coake]

The only thing Cerberus is good for is mildly amusing target practice.

[CmdrFenix83]

Arijharn wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Do not mistake failure as incompetence. Doing the right thing and not succeeding is still a step in the right direction.

Oh, come on! A true hero always succeeds, and makes everyone happy in the process. Even if by a repetitive quickload!

*Hits ESC, opens the Load menu and selects a save before this conversation starts*

Heh, it is quite contentious isn't it? Oh no, I support Cerberus' goals, therefore I must be morally bankrupt!

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Their goals aren't what is called into question.  Only their methods.

[Spartas Husky]

damn...from now on ima just sit back and enjoy the show. lol 2 threads of the same exact thing going on.... wish it could be on live or something.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Do not mistake failure as incompetence. Doing the right thing and not succeeding is still a step in the right direction.

Oh, come on! A true hero always succeeds, and makes everyone happy in the process. Even if by a repetitive quickload!

*Hits ESC, opens the Load menu and selects a save before this conversation starts*

Heh, it is quite contentious isn't it? Oh no, I support Cerberus' goals, therefore I must be morally bankrupt!

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Their goals aren't what is called into question.  Only their methods.

Your proverb and your statement don't match.

[Zulu_DFA]

Spartas Husky wrote...

damn...from now on ima just sit back and enjoy the show. lol 2 threads of the same exact thing going on.... wish it could be on live or something.

Get the popcorn, man, and the Coke. Me and Commander Perfection... we LUV each other!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 08:39 .