468 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

How about no one is truly evil since people tend to do what they think is right/expedient. The reapers do their whole shindig because they know about a bigger menace than them and that's how they keep the whole galaxy from being wiped out. Cerberus does what it does to advance human interest (which is why they donated to the colonies) The thresher maw attack could be in order to prepare for Aliens who would use Thresher Maws as WMDs of sorts, the facility Jack was at could be to promote human biotics much like the Ascension program.

Note: I do not like cerberus and I could see how they would be considered evil, but they could also be considered good, and if the opportunity presents itself, I will but a hole in the Illusive Man's head at the end of Mass Effect 3.. simply because with the reapers gone Cerberus will have a stockpile of reaper technology unmatched by any other military or organization

[Suron]

well I'm personally done with this.



you're either A. Really Stupid, B. A Troll, or C. A+B

[Keltoris]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Keltoris

I'll throw in a seemingly irrelevant, but at the same time totally relevant (because everything may be reduced to it) idea: We humans are all apes. And live by instincts. And our basic instinct manifests itself as hunger, sexual desire, and craving for domination, and it is all one and the same "survival instinct". And TIM is a damn good silverback, because his survival instinct is very strong and this is clearly exhibited by its manifestation in the form of craving for domination of his entire social group over other social groups. That's why TIM is the best to be entrusted with our survival against the Reapers, but surely he'll "go back to normal" when the dust settles.

Agreed, his survival instinct is excellent in your analogy, and he seems quite capablein what he is currently doing; helping stop a threat on this scale. This does not make him or Cerberus "good" in the moral sense. It make them effective. They're arguably evil, but a fair bit less evil than our beloved tincan People Liquifiers.

How many daggers in the back do you think is he lining up for Shepard? Paragon Shepard at any rate. I liked being able to upload the Cerberus data to the Alliance, but that was kinda it.

[Bigdoser]

As I said TIM has an awesome voice and people with awesome voices cannot be trusted.

[HTTP 404]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

Tarzan: You Jane, Me Tarzan!!

end of story

[Urazz]

Keltoris wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Keltoris

I'll throw in a seemingly irrelevant, but at the same time totally relevant (because everything may be reduced to it) idea: We humans are all apes. And live by instincts. And our basic instinct manifests itself as hunger, sexual desire, and craving for domination, and it is all one and the same "survival instinct". And TIM is a damn good silverback, because his survival instinct is very strong and this is clearly exhibited by its manifestation in the form of craving for domination of his entire social group over other social groups. That's why TIM is the best to be entrusted with our survival against the Reapers, but surely he'll "go back to normal" when the dust settles.

Agreed, his survival instinct is excellent in your analogy, and he seems quite capablein what he is currently doing; helping stop a threat on this scale. This does not make him or Cerberus "good" in the moral sense. It make them effective. They're arguably evil, but a fair bit less evil than our beloved tincan People Liquifiers.

How many daggers in the back do you think is he lining up for Shepard? Paragon Shepard at any rate. I liked being able to upload the Cerberus data to the Alliance, but that was kinda it.

Not only that but he does have 'good' people in the organization.  He put them in the Normandy to try to put on Cerberus' best face for Shepard during the mission.  Along with his manipulations, it was to try to make it look like that pretty much everyone abandoned him/her (which wasn't something that hard to do on his part with what everyone else did.) and convince him to stay with Cerberus.

Shame, I took all the 'good' guys with me out of Cerberus at the end of ME2.  They would've gave me pause on destroying Cerberus if things end up going that route.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Lies! Keith David hasn't stabbed me in the back in any game yet!

[jklinders]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

Ooh ooh let me try!!!

Hitler tried to conquer all of Europe and kill anyone that did not look perfect to him.

Stalin opposed Hitler. Therefore Stalin was good? Waaiiit a minute, this looks suspisiously like a logic fail. People whom the general population see as evil oppose each other all the time. If one drug gang is fighting another does that mean one of them is good? Ifg a despot is overthrown by someone who becomes another despot, deos that make the second despot good?  Whatever has transpired since the first post on this thread, the opening premise of it is so flawed I would expect it from someone who is around 5 years old.

Like any other human organization Cerberus is composed of good people and bad people. There is some good that comes out of it but also a lot of crap.
Morality is not a binary gauge, on or off. More like a sliding switch. The roads tpo hell paved with Cerberus' few good intentions is not a highway I wish to travel. Especially since it will lead to humanity's extinction at the hands of some alien force that we are not equipped to handle. That's where humans first will take us.

[Onyx Jaguar]

But the allies worked with Stalin! Logic success?

[jklinders]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

But the allies worked with Stalin! Logic success?

And Stalin turne don afterwards. Try again buddy. Besides there is a pretty good arguement Stalin killed as many of his own people as Hitler did. Op was talking about the reapers being evil and Cerberus being good becuase they oppose evil. That is equivalent to saying well that light over there is is not blue so it must be brown.

I know you were just being flippant, because I have seen enough of yuor posts to know you are smarter than that one suggests.

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Wildecked

I see you too are getting swepped a little away from the point of my initial post... That in the situation the Reapers are putting us in the only positive morality is relativistic-survavalist-utilitarian version of it, which undeniably makes Cerberus good. Under the circumstances. But when (and not until then) the circumstanses change, so will the moral standing of the acting bodies, including, and most importantly those of Shepard and TIM.

It's not that simple. TIM is all about power games and wheels within wheels. Some other people (like Anderson, for instance) might subscribe to the simplified "United we stand, divided we fall" when TIM or Udina calculate it would be a good thing if the Turians and Batarians lost as much industrial and military capacity during the war as possible so they're less of a threat to Human Dominance once the Reapers are dealt with. Something that will not go unnoticed for long by the allies. And then everyone loses. Cerberus poses the biggest possible credibility problem to potential human allies.
Okay, so we need the Quarians and their fleet on our side? Good luck in trying to convince them, because attacks on a flotilla ship are not just a cultural misunderstanding in their books. They can just slip away into empty interstellar space and decide to sit it out for a couple of decades. In fact, as long as they stay on the move the Quarians stand the best chance of all races to survive the Reapers. Humans might just as well start building a couple of deep space arcs for the worst case scenario.

[HTTP 404]

Its looking like a showdown between Shephard and Cerebres in ME3 regardless if you are renegade or paragon. If you are renegade you probably going to be more trouble than you are worth, if you are paragon well you know what happens in Me2 when you are paragon. I doubt bioware is going to diverse the story so much that you either have a level where you fight Cerebres agents or you dont have that level. thats my 2 cents so take it or leave it.



Sorry for any misspellings I type fast and dont double check. Also I definitely like some people's humor on this board makes posting on this boards entertaining. I like the stalin and hitler analogy. Castro overthrew a despot and become one. Hell even Bin Ladin and the Taliban funded by American dollars stopped the Soviets from invading afghanistan in the 80s (Remember that movie "The Beast" kickass soviet tank in Afghanistan)

[Steel Dancer]

Good
Morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
Moral righteousness; virtue: to be a power for good.
Kind, beneficent, or friendly: to do a good deed.
Reliable; dependable; responsible: good advice
Excellence or merit; kindness: to do good.  
 
Evil
Morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
Due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
 
Expedient
Tending to promote some proposed or desired object; fit or suitable for the purpose; proper under the circumstances: It is expedient that you go.
Conducive to advantage or interest, as opposed to right.
A means devised or employed in an exigency; resource; shift: Use any expedients you think necessary to get over the obstacles in your way.
 
 
 
Cerberus is most definitely expedient.
It usually acts in a way that most would define as evil.
It is most definitely and utterly NOT in any way, shape, manner or form good.
 
The acts of “good” that are seen done by them are nothing more than a PR exercise. Nothing else.

[phordicus]

opposing evil doesn't necessitate being good. logic fail.

[Tok153]

I wouldn't necessarily denote any action in mass effect as evil or good. Some actions are self serving while others serve the whole. Cerberus isn't evil just as the alliance isn't strictly good. The difference between paragon and renegade isn't good versus evil they are just different ideologies aiming at the same goal. Whether that goal is saving the universe for all species or just the humans is beside the point, it is still a self sacrifice for the greater good. So no not good yet not evil, we live in a world of grey embrace it. (That was not a dragon age plug...)

[Lethias]

Well i don't really think Shepard has a choice in the matter. Working with Cerberus is still better than letting the Reapers kill everyone because the council think: Ah yes, "Reapers". But also that doesen't mean Cerberus is good, in my opinion. Thats why keeping the Collector base is hard choice for me, cause if you survive the Reapers attack you don't want a guy like the illusive man to have that much power.
Anyway i don't think Cerberus is "evil", they just believe " the ends justify the means", and also extremist. Well yes that can be considered as evil, but still...
Hm and i like how the "evil communist" thing is allways returning, at least you didn't compare them to the reapers, only to cerberus

Modifié par Lethias, 30 mars 2010 - 02:47 .

[Jarcander]

Ends justify the needs, eh? Fair enough, I say, and even without reading this topic I bet it has been said many times and disagreed twice as many. I find it rather hard to trust TIM's motives after his megalomaniac speech in the grand finale. It felt, really, out of character. Then again, we don't know all that much about him.

[HTTP 404]

Jarcander wrote...

Ends justify the needs, eh? Fair enough, I say, and even without reading this topic I bet it has been said many times and disagreed twice as many. I find it rather hard to trust TIM's motives after his megalomaniac speech in the grand finale. It felt, really, out of character. Then again, we don't know all that much about him.

you are right it is out of character but then again could it be his true character?  was it a grasp of desperation perhaps or perhaps was it the lust for such power barely in his grasp?  Maybe both... (talking about the collector base)

[Mallissin]

You people are so mean to each other. It really worries me that we'll never defeat the Reapers without cooperation.



So, I created a secret, racist and ruthless organization to deal with the problems you're all avoiding.



I'm still working on the name, but I'm leaning towards "Powerpuff Girls".

[Sago_mulch]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

A shadowy organisation with a leader that never meets you in person and he says he's the good guy(you don't know him either, bounus) AND you only have his word for it?

They must be good. Derp

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
OK, I withdraw my objection. I see now how they match. I am not into religion and I've always read that proverb like: "Most people actually don't know what's acually good for them, and when seeking what they think is good, they actually seek their own destruction." But your interpretation makes sense too, and I'll take your word that it's correct. But then, I must notice, that the proverb itself is misguiding, as it says nothing about "methods corrupting the soul", but says something about the "good intentions", as if the "bad intentions" couldn't pave the road to hell equally well.

The entire purpose of the proverb is to warn against staining your hands with impure methods to reach your goals.  Thane actually says something to this effect if you go ahead with the Renegade interrupt method of doing the interrogation during his loyalty mission. 

As Kelly states, Cerberus does have noble intentions.  Their methods are *so* wrong that anything they do accomplish is tainted to such a horrid extent.

[CmdrFenix83]

Wildecker wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Wildecked

I see you too are getting swepped a little away from the point of my initial post... That in the situation the Reapers are putting us in the only positive morality is relativistic-survavalist-utilitarian version of it, which undeniably makes Cerberus good. Under the circumstances. But when (and not until then) the circumstanses change, so will the moral standing of the acting bodies, including, and most importantly those of Shepard and TIM.

It's not that simple. TIM is all about power games and wheels within wheels. Some other people (like Anderson, for instance) might subscribe to the simplified "United we stand, divided we fall" when TIM or Udina calculate it would be a good thing if the Turians and Batarians lost as much industrial and military capacity during the war as possible so they're less of a threat to Human Dominance once the Reapers are dealt with. Something that will not go unnoticed for long by the allies. And then everyone loses. Cerberus poses the biggest possible credibility problem to potential human allies.
Okay, so we need the Quarians and their fleet on our side? Good luck in trying to convince them, because attacks on a flotilla ship are not just a cultural misunderstanding in their books. They can just slip away into empty interstellar space and decide to sit it out for a couple of decades. In fact, as long as they stay on the move the Quarians stand the best chance of all races to survive the Reapers. Humans might just as well start building a couple of deep space arcs for the worst case scenario.

I just want to point out that if the Reaper fleet gets control of the Citadel, they'll shut down the entire Relay network.  No ships are going anywhere then.  The Flotilla could use FTL to try and reach an unknown system and hope it has the natural resources they need to survive the *centuries* that it'll take the Reapers to wipe out the galaxy, but this notion that they could just jump around indefinitely and avoid them doesn't work.

[Xaijin]

popcorn

That's how Newtonian posting works. Your thread is full of stupid because your post is full of stupid. wonder what that says about you.

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 mars 2010 - 06:37 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

But the allies worked with Stalin! Logic success?

And called him Uncle Joe. This is about 3rd time in this thread. And I didn't throw it in for every Hitler-Stalin-Allies analogy in this thread. And it's amasing how quick are the same people who accuse "my" logic of being "flawed" to bring in alanogy to discussion, which is not a logical argument at all.

One note on the analogy though. Allies ARE "good", not because they ARE "good". It's because they WON THE WAR, and "the winner is always right". It Hitler had won, he'd have been the best man that ever walked the face of the Earth. If Stalin had ordered "To Paris!" in May '1945 and won, he'd have been the Farther of All Peoples to this day. But that's not how it happened, and today we know for sure that Stalin and Hitler were the bad guys.

[Zulu_DFA]

phordicus wrote...

opposing evil doesn't necessitate being good. logic fail.