468 réponses à ce sujet

[Aedan_Cousland]

The Soviets fought the N@zis. 

Does that make Stalin a good guy?

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 30 mars 2010 - 08:21 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Steel Dancer wrote...
 
The acts of “good” that are seen done by them are nothing more than a PR exercise. Nothing else.

Yes, we know. Thank you for the input.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I can't provide proof because I have the xbox 360 version of the game but I'll re-iterate to you to the fact to play Horizon to completion and read the end Mission Complete screen. I'm of course assuming that humanitarian aid is good, so there you go Cerberus is good on your imposed factual scale.

Hmm... You bothered.

I don't think Cerberus haters will take it seriously.

TIM aids to rebuild Horizon? That's because he wants to build secret laboratories there.

TIM donates to the poor? Yeah, the selfish bastard tries to earn a good public image to run for president and then turn the state into totalitarian dictatorship.

TIM saves kittens? Sure he wants to create an army of kittens to invade alien homeworlds and unleash these beasts of war on alien babies!

Because, Cerberus cannot be trusted, you humans are all racist! And you, sir, are blight!!!
It's in the game, and it's the Canon now!

[Weiser_Cain]

One, the Reapers aren't out to kill all life, just the races that make up intergalactic civilization.

Two, If a pirate kills another pirate that doesn't make him a good person all of a sudden.

[Zulu_DFA]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The Soviets fought the N@zis. 

Does that make Stalin a good guy?

Number 4:

It makes him Uncle Joe.

[Zulu_DFA]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

One, the Reapers aren't out to kill all life, just the races that make up intergalactic civilization.

That's a hell of a solace. I feel relieved now.

Two, If a pirate kills another pirate that doesn't make him a good person all of a sudden.

If the killed pirate is about to rape the whole freaking galaxy, it makes the killer a hero of all times.

[Sajuro]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

One, the Reapers aren't out to kill all life, just the races that make up intergalactic civilization.
Two, If a pirate kills another pirate that doesn't make him a good person all of a sudden.

Depends on why the pirate killed the other one

[Zulu_DFA]

Lethias wrote...

Well i don't really think Shepard has a choice in the matter. Working with Cerberus is still better than letting the Reapers kill everyone because the council think: Ah yes, "Reapers". But also that doesen't mean Cerberus is good, in my opinion. Thats why keeping the Collector base is hard choice for me, cause if you survive the Reapers attack you don't want a guy like the illusive man to have that much power.
Anyway i don't think Cerberus is "evil", they just believe " the ends justify the means", and also extremist. Well yes that can be considered as evil, but still...
Hm and i like how the "evil communist" thing is allways returning, at least you didn't compare them to the reapers, only to cerberus

Key word: "better".

Also the "evil communists" are always compared to whatever the worst thing is in the discussion, unles the NАZIs have been already thrown in to back up the "logical falacy" indictment. Usually, it's the last resort before "ad hominem".

[Sago_mulch]

Whats good, again?

[Zulu_DFA]

Xaijin wrote...

popcorn

That's how Newtonian posting works. Your thread is full of stupid because your post is full of stupid. wonder what that says about you.

"Ad thread" argument bumps the thread. Thanks for the input.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sago_mulch wrote...

Whats good, again?

...I wonder.

Also: What is truth?

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
OK, I withdraw my objection. I see now how they match. I am not into religion and I've always read that proverb like: "Most people actually don't know what's acually good for them, and when seeking what they think is good, they actually seek their own destruction." But your interpretation makes sense too, and I'll take your word that it's correct. But then, I must notice, that the proverb itself is misguiding, as it says nothing about "methods corrupting the soul", but says something about the "good intentions", as if the "bad intentions" couldn't pave the road to hell equally well.

The entire purpose of the proverb is to warn against staining your hands with impure methods to reach your goals.  Thane actually says something to this effect if you go ahead with the Renegade interrupt method of doing the interrogation during his loyalty mission. 

As Kelly states, Cerberus does have noble intentions.  Their methods are *so* wrong that anything they do accomplish is tainted to such a horrid extent.

Metaphysics. Dismissed.

[Sago_mulch]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

Whats good, again?

...I wonder.

Also: What is love?

That didn't really answer the question

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
OK, I withdraw my objection. I see now how they match. I am not into religion and I've always read that proverb like: "Most people actually don't know what's acually good for them, and when seeking what they think is good, they actually seek their own destruction." But your interpretation makes sense too, and I'll take your word that it's correct. But then, I must notice, that the proverb itself is misguiding, as it says nothing about "methods corrupting the soul", but says something about the "good intentions", as if the "bad intentions" couldn't pave the road to hell equally well.

The entire purpose of the proverb is to warn against staining your hands with impure methods to reach your goals.  Thane actually says something to this effect if you go ahead with the Renegade interrupt method of doing the interrogation during his loyalty mission. 

As Kelly states, Cerberus does have noble intentions.  Their methods are *so* wrong that anything they do accomplish is tainted to such a horrid extent.

Metaphysics. Dismissed.

Dismiss whatever you want, and make up whatever theory you want about Cerberus, Darth Douchebag, it doesn't change the facts.  Every ounce of evidence we are given in game points to them being evil and wanting galactic domination for themselves.  Even if they join up to stop the Reapers, that's simply out of the desire to survive themselves.  It doesn't change their ture objectives. 

Their 'publicized' goals are advancement of humanity, but the reality shows them as nothing more than a typical Umbrella-esque corporation.  No, not even with Martin Sheen voicing TIM, does that change their lack of morals.

[Destructo-Bot]

I'd rather not be associated with an organization that will either fund your colony rebuilding project or FEED YOU TO A THRESHER MAW depending on how they are feeling that day. Also those philanthropic acts are most likely show for Shepard's benefit, trying to convince their "recruit" that they aren't all bad.

Just because a serial killer helps an old lady across the street doesn't make him a good guy. Stop apologizing for Cerberus.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 30 mars 2010 - 09:06 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Wildecker wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Wildecked

I see you too are getting swepped a little away from the point of my initial post... That in the situation the Reapers are putting us in the only positive morality is relativistic-survavalist-utilitarian version of it, which undeniably makes Cerberus good. Under the circumstances. But when (and not until then) the circumstanses change, so will the moral standing of the acting bodies, including, and most importantly those of Shepard and TIM.

It's not that simple. TIM is all about power games and wheels within wheels. Some other people (like Anderson, for instance) might subscribe to the simplified "United we stand, divided we fall" when TIM or Udina calculate it would be a good thing if the Turians and Batarians lost as much industrial and military capacity during the war as possible so they're less of a threat to Human Dominance once the Reapers are dealt with. Something that will not go unnoticed for long by the allies. And then everyone loses. Cerberus poses the biggest possible credibility problem to potential human allies.
Okay, so we need the Quarians and their fleet on our side? Good luck in trying to convince them, because attacks on a flotilla ship are not just a cultural misunderstanding in their books. They can just slip away into empty interstellar space and decide to sit it out for a couple of decades. In fact, as long as they stay on the move the Quarians stand the best chance of all races to survive the Reapers. Humans might just as well start building a couple of deep space arcs for the worst case scenario.

I wouldn't rely on ark ships and the migrant fleet to avoid the Reapers. Vigil said they are very thorough and persistent... Yet, Vigil looks like a proof that one can possibly bunker down and avoid being reaped... But that's what bothers me ever since ME1. Vigil is self-contradictory. Something is not rigtht here. Also other planets in the Ilos system carried the marks of destruction of the Prothean facilities... This also could mean the Protheans destroyed them thems selves... But still it doesn't fit well. I think there is more to it, but it's not up to Shepard to solve the mystery.

As for taking advantages of the war with the Reapers in order to secure the Human dominance beyond them, yes, there is the tricky part. Who says the Turians won't try to do the same? And idealistic here is the wrong one. All parties know they have to cooperate, yet they all know that if they don't seize their oppurtunities, the others will. That's why men like TIM and Udina should be in charge. As I said, their strive for domination is manifestation of the "high-grade" survival instinct, which the evolution's fostered in Humans for millions of years, and the good thing about it is that the lust for power (generally percieved as bad) can't actually hamper our odds of making it through the Reaper invasion. We'll be cooperative just enough.

[Destructo-Bot]

Think Martin Luther King vs the Black Panthers Zulu. Similiar goals, different methods. I'd say MLK had the better results no?

Evil begats evil.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 30 mars 2010 - 09:08 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

I'd rather not be associated with an organization that will either fund your colony rebuilding project or FEED YOU TO A THRESHER MAW depending on how they are feeling that day. Also those philanthropic acts are most likely show for Shepard's benefit, trying to convince their "recruit" that they aren't all bad.

Just because a serial killer helps an old lady across the street doesn't make him a good guy. Stop apologizing for Cerberus.

Yes, we know. Thank you for the input.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I can't provide proof because I have the xbox 360 version of the game but I'll re-iterate to you to the fact to play Horizon to completion and read the end Mission Complete screen. I'm of course assuming that humanitarian aid is good, so there you go Cerberus is good on your imposed factual scale.

Hmm... You bothered.

I don't think Cerberus haters will take it seriously.

TIM aids to rebuild Horizon? That's because he wants to build secret laboratories there.

TIM donates to the poor? Yeah, the selfish bastard tries to earn a good public image to run for president and then turn the state into totalitarian dictatorship.

TIM saves kittens? Sure he wants to create an army of kittens to invade alien homeworlds and unleash these beasts of war on alien babies!

Because, Cerberus cannot be trusted, you humans are all racist! And you, sir, are blight!!!
It's in the game, and it's the Canon now!

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
OK, I withdraw my objection. I see now how they match. I am not into religion and I've always read that proverb like: "Most people actually don't know what's acually good for them, and when seeking what they think is good, they actually seek their own destruction." But your interpretation makes sense too, and I'll take your word that it's correct. But then, I must notice, that the proverb itself is misguiding, as it says nothing about "methods corrupting the soul", but says something about the "good intentions", as if the "bad intentions" couldn't pave the road to hell equally well.

The entire purpose of the proverb is to warn against staining your hands with impure methods to reach your goals.  Thane actually says something to this effect if you go ahead with the Renegade interrupt method of doing the interrogation during his loyalty mission. 

As Kelly states, Cerberus does have noble intentions.  Their methods are *so* wrong that anything they do accomplish is tainted to such a horrid extent.

Metaphysics. Dismissed.

Dismiss whatever you want, and make up whatever theory you want about Cerberus, Darth Douchebag, it doesn't change the facts.  Every ounce of evidence we are given in game points to them being evil and wanting galactic domination for themselves.  Even if they join up to stop the Reapers, that's simply out of the desire to survive themselves.  It doesn't change their ture objectives. 

Their 'publicized' goals are advancement of humanity, but the reality shows them as nothing more than a typical Umbrella-esque corporation.  No, not even with Martin Sheen voicing TIM, does that change their lack of morals.

Metaphysics won't change the facts either. Because it's "beyond" the facts.

And stow it on making up that I'm TIM's fan because Martin Sheen is a cool guy. I think Martin Sheen is actually a dick. Because he stole Lt. Col. Kilgore's surfing board! Caugnt him entirely off guard. Kilgore had just given him a lift and was enjoing the smell of napalm on the beach, when Martin Sheen sneaked behind and bereft him of the best board in the Nam!

[Onyx Jaguar]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Think Martin Luther King vs the Black Panthers Zulu. Similiar goals, different methods. I'd say MLK had the better results no?

Evil begats evil.

MLK died before what he wanted came to pass, and some would argue that it wasn't effective.  Same for Gandhi who's dream wasn't realized.  The stronger hand is always the more effective hand.

EDIT:  To clarify, the Black Panthers failed because of organizational issues.  MLK and Gandhi chose diplomatic routes in a violent situation.  The Hippies tried a similar thing and failed horribly.  Also when I say Gandhi's dream wasn't realized I mean the India Pakistan split.  Overall his was the most successful but the process took a long period of time.

/end derailment

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 30 mars 2010 - 09:26 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Think Martin Luther King vs the Black Panthers Zulu. Similiar goals, different methods. I'd say MLK had the better results no?

Evil begats evil.

MLK wasn't opposing a force about to turn all blacks into tinned stew. He stroke a bargain. The Reapers don't seem to want a bargain. They demand our destruction. We demand theirs.

And we have a better motivation. We want to see another Riso Uverson's blockbuster movie!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2010 - 09:26 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Sago_mulch wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

Whats good, again?

...I wonder.

Also: What is love?

That didn't really answer the question

Love is sex.

With that established, can we now return to "my" question about "What is truth?"

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

Whats good, again?

...I wonder.

Also: What is love?

That didn't really answer the question

Love is sex.

With that established, can we now return to "my" question about "What is truth?"

The truth is a lie, as we know it anyway, there are only perspectives.

[Sky Shadowing]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Think Martin Luther King vs the Black Panthers Zulu. Similiar goals, different methods. I'd say MLK had the better results no?

Evil begats evil.

MLK wasn't opposing a force about to turn all blacks into tinned stew. He stroke a bargain. The Reapers don't seem to want a bargain. They demand our destruction. We demand theirs.

And we have a better motivation. We want to see another Riso Uverson's blockbuster movie!

MLK wasn't also a bigot who was about to set the African-Americans ahead of all other races. He wanted equality, not superiority.

TIM has made no hiding of this fact- he wants humanity to take a place of supreme power in the galaxy. He doesn't give a crap who else gets wiped out. So, to humanity, he's good, but to the Galactic Community as a whole, he's evil.

The Alliance is trying to integrate, not dominate. Therefore, they feel Cerberus is evil. Certain elements want to dominate, not integrate. They feel Cerberus is good.

This is ALL a matter of perspective. If you're pro-Human and anti-Alien, you're Cerberus supporter. If you're pro-Alien, you're more likely a Cerberus hater. It's a matter of loyalty to Race against loyalty to Life.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

TIM has made no hiding of this fact- he wants humanity to take a place of supreme power in the galaxy. He doesn't give a crap who else gets wiped out. So, to humanity, he's good, but to the Galactic Community as a whole, he's evil.

I've been pulling this through the entire thread. How can TIM be evil to the aliens, when it looks like they are getting wiped out anyway? With TIM, they have a chance of his mercy, though, if it comes to their worst after the Reapers are done with.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 12:57 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

The truth is a lie, as we know it anyway, there are only perspectives.

Even if the truth is a lie in your common sense, still it's the opposite of false in the hard thinking.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 01:01 .