468 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How can TIM be evil to the aliens, when it looks like they are getting wiped out anyway? With TIM, they have a chance of his mercy, though, if it comes to their worst after the Reapers are done with.

When you're looking at certain death vs certain oppression (and possible death) neither one is a good option.  Oppression may be the better option but it still sucks.  Also TIM isn't working to save aliens, he's working to save humanity and they know it.  The fact that the aliens are getting saved too is just a lucky bonus for them.

Whether the cougar kills the wolf or the wolf kills the cougar the deer is still screwed.

[Zulu_DFA]

DPSSOC wrote...

... lucky bonus for them.

...and, lucky bonus is good. End of story.


Oh, and BTW, if the aliens won't be happy with it, let 'em go to hell!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 01:23 .

[archurban]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

well, even though Cerberus seems to achieve a goal for humanity, I don't still trust it and Illusive man who is really mysterious. even Miranda and Jacob doesn't truly trust him anyway. in the end of game, if you choose not to destroy collector's base, let illusive man use their technology, all squadmates don't like your desicion even Miranda and Jacob. I can't imagine that illusive man could use its technology for destroying other aliens. I don't let it happen. if you choose to destruct the base (if you bring Miranda for final battle), Miranda agrees with Shepard's decision. and tell illusive man her resignation of Cerberus. when you return to Normandy, talk to all squadmates. they all argee you had made a good decision. then your paragon will be surge. Cerberus could be another big threat if they have collector's technology. so I am done with it.

[Zulu_DFA]

archurban wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

well, even though Cerberus seems to achieve a goal for humanity, I don't still trust it and Illusive man who is really mysterious. even Miranda and Jacob doesn't truly trust him anyway. in the end of game, if you choose not to destroy collector's base, let illusive man use their technology, all squadmates don't like your desicion even Miranda and Jacob. I can't imagine that illusive man could use its technology for destroying other aliens. I don't let it happen. if you choose to destruct the base (if you bring Miranda for final battle), Miranda agrees with Shepard's decision. and tell illusive man her resignation of Cerberus. when you return to Normandy, talk to all squadmates. they all argee you had made a good decision. then your paragon will be surge. Cerberus could be another big threat if they have collector's technology. so I am done with it.

Well, good for you, but you seem to listen too attentively to your subordinates' blabber, to make a good captain. If you ask me, that is.

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I've been pulling this through the entire thread. How can TIM be evil to the aliens, when it looks like they are getting wiped out anyway? With TIM, they have a chance of his mercy, though, if it comes to their worst after the Reapers are done with.

You wouldn't expect humans to cave in like that, would you? Like Zapata said "Better to die on ones feet than to live on ones knees". If The Man, Cerberus and the Systems Alliance can take on the Reapers on their own and win, then the others may see themselves forced to plead for mercy and protection. But as long as you still depend on their assistance for winning, you'll have to make a better offer. Might as well expect the Batarians or even the Hanar to come up with "You need our firepower to win? Here are our terms. Accept them or get lost."

I've seen the impact of a decision to let the Council die - Turians and Asari perceive Humans as calculating cold-hearted bastards who merely waited for the right time to seize power, no matter how many from other races died for that opening. With Cerberus slowly spreading Collector Tech among the Alliance I expect the Council to break up completely and most of the other races combining their forces to stop the human rise to power. And the Reapers? To most of them Reapers are just a convenient myth, a bogeyman to keep the gullible in line and under the human boot.

With Cerberus on the rise mankind loses the war before it even starts. And humans will be very lucky if they only get hit with the genophage Mk. III. Or the Alliance will have to destroy all others and stand alone against the Reapers.

That's where the convenient easy renegade choices eventually lead to.

Modifié par Wildecker, 31 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[smudboy]

To my good friend Zulu_DFA:

[Zulu_DFA]

Wildecker wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I've been pulling this through the entire thread. How can TIM be evil to the aliens, when it looks like they are getting wiped out anyway? With TIM, they have a chance of his mercy, though, if it comes to their worst after the Reapers are done with.

You wouldn't expect humans to cave in like that, would you? Like Zapata said "Better to die on ones feet than to live on ones knees". If The Man, Cerberus and the Systems Alliance can take on the Reapers on their own and win, then the others may see themselves forced to plead for mercy and protection. But as long as you still depend on their assistance for winning, you'll have to make a better offer. Might as well expect the Batarians or even the Hanar to come up with "You need our firepower to win? Here are our terms. Accept them or get lost."

Nobody comes up with such negotiation tactics unless your "counterpart" has been already crushed miliarily and there is no negotiation if fact. It the Hanar are dumb enough for that, that the only answer they'll get will be: "Get lost yourself". And with Cerberus and the C-Base intact the Humans will have an upper hand on this one.

Of course some "fair" baragining should take place in order to build up and Anti-Reaper Coalition, but you can't expect either side to be fully "honest" and committed to keeping their promises after the victory.

I've seen the impact of a decision to let the Council die - Turians and Asari perceive Humans as calculating cold-hearted bastards who merely waited for the right time to seize power, no matter how many from other races died for that opening. With Cerberus slowly spreading Collector Tech among the Alliance I expect the Council to break up completely and most of the other races combining their forces to stop the human rise to power. And the Reapers? To most of them Reapers are just a convenient myth, a bogeyman to keep the gullible in line and under the human boot.

Actually I think dead Couincil is a better option both tactically (concentrate on Sovereign) - and it's all thea matters at that moment, and strategically. Because the ensuing Cold War with an arms race between the Humans and the Turians makes them both more prepared to face the Reapers, than the peaceful Council with that Turian Moron calling the plays, which was just a fat sitting duck for the Reapers.

With Cerberus on the rise mankind loses the war before it even starts. And humans will be very lucky if they only get hit with the genophage Mk. III. Or the Alliance will have to destroy all others and stand alone against the Reapers.

That's where the convenient easy renegade choices eventually lead to.

With Cerberus on the rise how do you think STG can even dream of pulling that Genophage MK. III sh*t? Cerberus is exactly what the Krogans lacked - the Intelligence.

As to the story of my post you quoted, it's the extreme scennario, that is still justified by logic. Even if TIM tramples on aliens' dignity after the destruction of the Reapers and pull that "Emperor of the Galaxy" stunt, the aliens will still have their lives to form a "Rebel Alliance" to regain their dignity and all. As it goes, without TIM there will be no alien lives left to have dignity. As to the Zapata quote, it's true, but there is no dignity in death itself. And the saying also implies that after you die on your feet, the cause and the ideals will live. No such outcome with the death by the Reapers.

And stop thinking of TIM like a Hitlerite madman. He is a cold, calculating NeoCon. Donald Rumsfeld, minus religious BS, probably.

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

To my good friend Zulu_DFA:

This smells a lot like a FREE LUNCH for you, guys. If it's OK, good for you.

[Goodwood]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

archurban wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

well, even though Cerberus seems to achieve a goal for humanity, I don't still trust it and Illusive man who is really mysterious. even Miranda and Jacob doesn't truly trust him anyway. in the end of game, if you choose not to destroy collector's base, let illusive man use their technology, all squadmates don't like your desicion even Miranda and Jacob. I can't imagine that illusive man could use its technology for destroying other aliens. I don't let it happen. if you choose to destruct the base (if you bring Miranda for final battle), Miranda agrees with Shepard's decision. and tell illusive man her resignation of Cerberus. when you return to Normandy, talk to all squadmates. they all argee you had made a good decision. then your paragon will be surge. Cerberus could be another big threat if they have collector's technology. so I am done with it.

Well, good for you, but you seem to listen too attentively to your subordinates' blabber, to make a good captain. If you ask me, that is.

A captain worthy of her rank bars listens to her crew, particularly her elite operators, and takes their opinions into account. That is a basic rule of leadership.

[Zulu_DFA]

Goodwood wrote...

A captain worthy of her rank bars listens to her crew, particularly her elite operators, and takes their opinions into account. That is a basic rule of leadership.

The basic rule of military leadership is: "We're here do defend the democracy, not to exercise it".

That's why opinions are not to be taken into account. Only facts.

If you want some "responsibility", go run for president.



EDIT:
And the fact is: the Base is salvaged/destroyed. It's done. And any "opinion" on that is scuttlebutt. Second-guessing your comanding officer. It's OK, and natural, but it has to be kept within the ranks. When it's openly expressed it's an offence called "insubordiantion".

I can understand the squadmates' "input" during missions, when they sort of "advise" to Shepard, but that discussing of the Collector base decision, that had been taken, carried out, and walked away from, was just lame and annoying.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 06:02 .

[Mallissin]

Seriously, Zulu. If at any point in the next 30 years, when the world slides into chaos and needs a leader to stand up.....please stay seated.



You're scaring the crap out of me.

[MassAffected]

Mallissin wrote...

Seriously, Zulu. If at any point in the next 30 years, when the world slides into chaos and needs a leader to stand up.....please stay seated.

You're scaring the crap out of me.

You're only helping his ego here.

[Commander Gonzalez]

I'm just looking into the future. Yeah I'm sure Cerberus will gladly toss aside the Reaper technology after the Reapers are done (Sarcastic). I want to make sure their is no enemy after my main enemy is done with.

[Goodwood]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

A captain worthy of her rank bars listens to her crew, particularly her elite operators, and takes their opinions into account. That is a basic rule of leadership.

The basic rule of military leadership is: "We're here do defend the democracy, not to exercise it".

That's why opinions are not to be taken into account. Only facts.

If you want some "responsibility", go run for president.

EDIT:
And the fact is: the Base is salvaged/destroyed. It's done. And any "opinion" on that is scuttlebutt. Second-guessing your comanding officer. It's OK, and natural, but it has to be kept within the ranks. When it's openly expressed it's an offence called "insubordiantion".

I can understand the squadmates' "input" during missions, when they sort of "advise" to Shepard, but that discussing of the Collector base decision, that had been taken, carried out, and walked away from, was just lame and annoying.

Good luck with those "accidentally dropped" live grenades, Mr. Martinet.

[Zulu_DFA]

MassAffected wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Seriously, Zulu. If at any point in the next 30 years, when the world slides into chaos and needs a leader to stand up.....please stay seated.

You're scaring the crap out of me.

You're only helping his ego here.

YAAAAHR!

Just can't decide which one. Will you help me here?

[MassAffected]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Seriously, Zulu. If at any point in the next 30 years, when the world slides into chaos and needs a leader to stand up.....please stay seated.

You're scaring the crap out of me.

You're only helping his ego here.

YAAAAHR!

Just can't decide which one. Will you help me here?

The one that TiM strokes when you two are alone...

[Zulu_DFA]

Goodwood wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

A captain worthy of her rank bars listens to her crew, particularly her elite operators, and takes their opinions into account. That is a basic rule of leadership.

The basic rule of military leadership is: "We're here do defend the democracy, not to exercise it".

That's why opinions are not to be taken into account. Only facts.

If you want some "responsibility", go run for president.

EDIT:
And the fact is: the Base is salvaged/destroyed. It's done. And any "opinion" on that is scuttlebutt. Second-guessing your comanding officer. It's OK, and natural, but it has to be kept within the ranks. When it's openly expressed it's an offence called "insubordiantion".

I can understand the squadmates' "input" during missions, when they sort of "advise" to Shepard, but that discussing of the Collector base decision, that had been taken, carried out, and walked away from, was just lame and annoying.

Good luck with those "accidentally dropped" live grenades, Mr. Martinet.

Good luck at the court martial, traitor!

[Sajuro]

The Illusive Man could hardly be considered a Dark Knight, he's more of a manipulator since we have never seen him actually getting his hands dirty.

[Zombie Hunter 0]

"Cerberus is good. End of Story"

Well that's a pretty crappy story then.



In all seriousness though Reapers are the bigger threat so working together even with an organization you hate (I hate it) makes sense in that no matter what conflict you two have, if the Reapers win everyone dies so that renders the first part irrelevant then.

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

A captain worthy of her rank bars listens to her crew, particularly her elite operators, and takes their opinions into account. That is a basic rule of leadership.

The basic rule of military leadership is: "We're here do defend the democracy, not to exercise it".

That's why opinions are not to be taken into account. Only facts.

If you want some "responsibility", go run for president.

EDIT:
And the fact is: the Base is salvaged/destroyed. It's done. And any "opinion" on that is scuttlebutt. Second-guessing your comanding officer. It's OK, and natural, but it has to be kept within the ranks. When it's openly expressed it's an offence called "insubordiantion".

I can understand the squadmates' "input" during missions, when they sort of "advise" to Shepard, but that discussing of the Collector base decision, that had been taken, carried out, and walked away from, was just lame and annoying.

Good luck with those "accidentally dropped" live grenades, Mr. Martinet.

Good luck at the court martial, traitor!

Like companies getting Unions, a commander of a unit only gets fragged if he seriously has it coming. Basically, a completely renegade Shepherd is waiting for this to happen.

[Zulu_DFA]

MassAffected wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Seriously, Zulu. If at any point in the next 30 years, when the world slides into chaos and needs a leader to stand up.....please stay seated.

You're scaring the crap out of me.

You're only helping his ego here.

YAAAAHR!

Just can't decide which one. Will you help me here?

The one that TiM strokes when you two are alone...

But I am TIM... Er..., no that makes it even worse! I think you got me here.

Now you may go and have a little celebration with Commander Perfection.

[Zulu_DFA]

Zombie Hunter 0 wrote...

"Cerberus is good. End of Story"

Well that's a pretty crappy story then.

Life is crappy crap. Before Darwin some naturalists thought that life is literally born of crap.

In all seriousness though Reapers are the bigger threat so working together even with an organization you hate (I hate it) makes sense in that no matter what conflict you two have, if the Reapers win everyone dies so that renders the first part irrelevant then.

Good to see another sound reply. A rarity these days.

[Urazz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

A captain worthy of her rank bars listens to her crew, particularly her elite operators, and takes their opinions into account. That is a basic rule of leadership.

The basic rule of military leadership is: "We're here do defend the democracy, not to exercise it".

That's why opinions are not to be taken into account. Only facts.

If you want some "responsibility", go run for president.



EDIT:
And the fact is: the Base is salvaged/destroyed. It's done. And any "opinion" on that is scuttlebutt. Second-guessing your comanding officer. It's OK, and natural, but it has to be kept within the ranks. When it's openly expressed it's an offence called "insubordiantion".

I can understand the squadmates' "input" during missions, when they sort of "advise" to Shepard, but that discussing of the Collector base decision, that had been taken, carried out, and walked away from, was just lame and annoying.

Actualy, that's not the basic rule of military leadership.  The basic rule of Military leadership is to defend their country.

And a smart military leader will ask the opinion and take into account of subordinates who are generally more experts in their field that the commanding officer is not or to get other perspectives on tough decisions if there is time to discuss it.  They won't do it with the peons really but will pretty much take advice and the like from his/her command staff.

Pretty much almost half of the squad in ME2 is part of Shepard's command staff.  Miranda is the Executive Officer,  Garrus looks like he's the gunnery officer in charge of the ship's weapon systems, Tali is chief engineer,  Jacob looks to be the armory chief, and Mordin is the chief scientist/research specialist (not necessarily an actual position but head of that department of the Normandy).  All the other squadies are generally just ground troops for Shepard's mission to take on the Collectors.

So the squad commenting on saving or destroying the collector base does make sense on a military ship.  Thing is though that the Normandy is a civilian ship with some military discipline on it .

Modifié par Urazz, 31 mars 2010 - 06:36 .

[Steel Dancer]

.....!

Flip this argument around for a moment.

Why is Cerberus considered evil?

From the Mass Effect Wiki:
"Their core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them."

By using these methods Cerberus creates an environment of fear and distrust.
1. Amongst humanity itself as Cerberus is viewed as a rogue untrustworthy force with spies and agents everywhere.
2. Towards humanity amongst the other races, actively preventing humanity and other races from working efficiently together to find solutions to potential common problems.

1. Simply causes problems that have no easy solutions(*1). 2. Is a little more complex. The only way it could be considered a good thing is if you want that to happen so Humanity will "stand on it's own two feet".

This idea does actually hold a certain amount of possibilities.

The technology levels between the Alliance and the rest of the Council races don't actually seem that far apart. It seems to be more materials accessibilty and usage that maintains any superiority on the part of the Turians and Asari (I'd strongly doubt  the Alliance is capable of building anything near the scale of the Destinys Ascension... yet.).
 
There is however, a difficulty. This stance falls down against one very major problem: the Reapers. They are simply too big a situation for Humanity to survive against alone at its current levels of technology and levels of available personnel. An additional problem: there are a lot more alien races that have been around a lot longer than Humanity has, and Humanity already has a reputation as something of a "bully-boy" race which would cause even more political and military difficulties.

In short: Cerberus' actions work against humanity achieving any sort of long term stability either alone or working with other races. A full on all out Renegade+ stance that tries to place humanity above everything else without really considering the negative impact that stance will have.


Cerberus is not good. End of story.

(*1) Whether or not any of the rebuilding/medical help Cerberus gives is under their banner is never actually stated. They do however have Shepard flying around in a big damn spaceship with the Cerberus insignia on it. PR mode could easily be in full effect.

Modifié par Steel Dancer, 31 mars 2010 - 06:41 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

Like companies getting Unions, a commander of a unit only gets fragged if he seriously has it coming. Basically, a completely renegade Shepherd is waiting for this to happen.

Believe me, every young lieutenant in the infantry knows the risks. Including this one. Fear cannot affect their decisions though.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 06:40 .