468 réponses à ce sujet

[scotty062295]

Shepard is the main character, so it goes like this: Saren got in my way, he died. The Reapers are in my way, they're gonna die. Cerberus gets in my way, they die. Simple. For now, I don't trust them, but I don't distrust them. They've helped me so far, and as long as I get to do things the way I want to do them, the Alliance and the Council can kiss the fattest part of my ass, and look for their "Spectre reinstatement" while they're down there.

[Gaharia]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

Two wrongs does not make one good.

[MassAffected]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Seriously, Zulu. If at any point in the next 30 years, when the world slides into chaos and needs a leader to stand up.....please stay seated.

You're scaring the crap out of me.

You're only helping his ego here.

YAAAAHR!

Just can't decide which one. Will you help me here?

The one that TiM strokes when you two are alone...

But I am TIM... Er..., no that makes it even worse! I think you got me here.

Now you may go and have a little celebration with Commander Perfection.

*smartly salutes and goes off to blindly carry out his orders* oh...wait, thats YOU!

[Sajuro]

Gaharia wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

Two wrongs does not make one good.

did you say one good instead of right so no one would comment 'but three lefts do'?

[Goodwood]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Like companies getting Unions, a commander of a unit only gets fragged if he seriously has it coming. Basically, a completely renegade Shepherd is waiting for this to happen.

Believe me, every young lieutenant in the infantry knows the risks. Including this one. Fear cannot affect their decisions though.

You? A lieutenant in the infantry? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Please excuse my being a Doubting Thomas...and allow me to extend a pre-emptive "sorry to hear about that" when you get your rump shot off because of a poor tactical choice.

Modifié par Goodwood, 31 mars 2010 - 06:47 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Urazz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

A captain worthy of her rank bars listens to her crew, particularly her elite operators, and takes their opinions into account. That is a basic rule of leadership.

The basic rule of military leadership is: "We're here do defend the democracy, not to exercise it".

That's why opinions are not to be taken into account. Only facts.

If you want some "responsibility", go run for president.



EDIT:
And the fact is: the Base is salvaged/destroyed. It's done. And any "opinion" on that is scuttlebutt. Second-guessing your comanding officer. It's OK, and natural, but it has to be kept within the ranks. When it's openly expressed it's an offence called "insubordiantion".

I can understand the squadmates' "input" during missions, when they sort of "advise" to Shepard, but that discussing of the Collector base decision, that had been taken, carried out, and walked away from, was just lame and annoying.

Actualy, that's not the basic rule of military leadership.  The basic rule of Military leadership is to defend their country.

Yes, you're right. I forgot there are non-democratic countires out there.

And a smart military leader will ask the opinion and take into account of subordinates

I think you should teach this innovative strategy at the West Point.

who are generally more experts in their field that the commanding officer is not or to get other perspectives on tough decisions if there is time to discuss it.  They won't do it with the peons really but will pretty much take advice and the like from his/her command staff.

So, what you're talking about is not an "asking for the opinion", but "requesting advice" (and "advice" in the military jargon means "factual information", mind it)

Pretty much almost half of the squad in ME2 is part of Shepard's command staff.  Miranda is the Executive Officer,  Garrus looks like he's the gunnery officer in charge of the ship's weapon systems, Tali is chief engineer,  Jacob looks to be the armory chief, and Mordin is the chief scientist/research specialist (not necessarily an actual position but head of that department of the Normandy).  All the other squadies are generally just ground troops for Shepard's mission to take on the Collectors.

Ah, yeah our kewl badass fashion show contestant squaddies... Even if I admit what you say for the sake of the discussion, that doesn't make their post factum comments on the Collector Base decision more worthwhile.

So the squad commenting on saving or destroying the collector base does make sense on a military ship.  Thing is though that the Normandy is a civilian ship with some military discipline on it .

No, it does not. And the Normandy being technically a civillian craft does not cancel the Cerberus chain of command present there. If *your* Shepard cancels it, it doesn't make companions' comments on the C-Base decision a universal proof of the decision's "rightness" or "wrongness". Because from the role-playing PoV *my* Cerberus Loyalist Shepard, who runs that ship militarily is equally legit, as to make those comments unwelcome.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Good luck at the court martial, traitor!

Coming from the Alliance Marine and Spectre now working for a known enemy of the Council and the Alliance...  I think you've got that a bit backwards there, considering that *you* are the one that committed treason.

Seriously, Zulu, I think you've delved too deeply into the land of make-believe here.  Are you just trying to be a Mass Effect Renegade version of Steven Colbert?  Just trying to be so absurdly Renegade and stupid just for laughs?

[Zulu_DFA]

Goodwood wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Like companies getting Unions, a commander of a unit only gets fragged if he seriously has it coming. Basically, a completely renegade Shepherd is waiting for this to happen.

Believe me, every young lieutenant in the infantry knows the risks. Including this one. Fear cannot affect their decisions though.

You? A lieutenant in the infantry? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Please excuse my being a Doubting Thomas...and allow me to extend a pre-emptive "sorry to hear about that" when you get your rump shot off because of a poor tactical choice.

Did I say I am a lieutenant in the infantry?

All you need to know, if that's puzzling you, I have some experience of military service.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Good luck at the court martial, traitor!

Coming from the Alliance Marine and Spectre now working for a known enemy of the Council and the Alliance...  I think you've got that a bit backwards there, considering that *you* are the one that committed treason.

Seriously, Zulu, I think you've delved too deeply into the land of make-believe here.  Are you just trying to be a Mass Effect Renegade version of Steven Colbert?  Just trying to be so absurdly Renegade and stupid just for laughs?

Sorry, don't know who's Steven Colbert. And no, just for laughs I post in there.

As to the Alliance Marines traitor, Kahoku is my favorite.

As to the prospect of my being court martialed for my affiliation with Cerberus, I think it'd make a helluva ME3 opening plot twist!

As to my "happy court martial" comment, it was aimed at the one suggesting, that it's OK to frag your commander if he forgot to sak your opinion on the plan of the mission.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 07:11 .

[The BS Police]

Cerberus is not good, that is like saying Germany between 1933 up to 1945 were good.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sorry, don't know who's Steven Colbert. And no, just for laughs I post in there.

As to the Alliance Marines traitor, Kahoku is my favorite.

As to the prospect of my being court martialed for my affiliation with Cerberus, I think it'd make a helluva ME3 opening plot twist!

As to my "happy court martial" comment, it was aimed at the one suggesting, that it's OK to frag your commander if he forgot to sak your opinion on the plan of the mission.

www.colbertnation.com/home

News program run by a guy that pretends to be so ridiculously conservative that it's a comedy.  Fits you quite well... except you aren't funny.

Kahoku didn't get to be a traitor, he was murdered first by the rogue group that you're so busy sucking up to(why someone sucks up to a ficticious organization is beyond me, but whatever).  Just because you promise something, doesn't mean you have to deliver.  Granted, it could ****** the Shadow Broker off to the point of attempting to kill him, but he may have been willing for the sake of his men.  At any rate, he didn't commit treason, he was murdered before he could, even if he was going to.

Well, if might happen to a Renegade that gave this terrorist organization(this is their official status to the Alliance/Council, regardless of what you may make up otherwise) the Collector Base.  However, the Paragon dialogues leave us as Spectres and no further ties to Cerberus.  The Council themselves hoped a swift end to the association, and they got it.  In the end, we flipped TIM the bird and walked off with his multi-billion credit spacecraft that we can no have stripped of those Cerberus logos. 

As far as fragging your commander, yeah, they might get a court-martial over it.  However, if they can prove it was justified(IE:  Commander was commiting or about to commit treason despite protests otherwise), then the charges would be dropped.  In case you aren't aware, in the US it is your duty as a soldier to disobey if your CO issues an unlawful order.  If they persist, then it's your duty to relieve your CO of command.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 31 mars 2010 - 07:22 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The BS Police wrote...

Cerberus is not good, that is like saying Germany between 1933 up to 1945 were good.

Have you come up with that on your own, or do they teach you that in BS Police Academy?

BTW, as I already mentioned in this thread, the "ad NАZI" argument is the last before the"ad hominem".

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu, just admit that you lost. The title of this thread is, "Cerberus is Good, End of Story." Have you seen how long this thread is? If you haven't then I'll tell you. It is 16 pages. If you were right then it wouldn't have gotten past 2 pages. There would have been nothing to talk about because cerberus is good and there would be no arguing against that. Since there have been valid disagreements that means you were wrong, that one sentence doesn't sum up the situation.



Also, as others have said, just because someone is your ally against a common enemy doesn't mean they are good. I'll give you a real world example. Stalin of the CCCP/USSR was FDR's and Winston Churchill's ally during WWII. Stalin ordered the deaths of 10-20 million of his own citizens. That means he killed more innocent people than Hitler and is SS. By your logic he is a good person. Do you agree? Because if you do then you are a horrible person.

[Asheer_Khan]

You known Zulu...you lost in my eyes rest of credibility when you call Stalin the Butcher "Uncle Joe".

That guy have on his and blood over 20 MILIONS (true count will propably never asset) own citizens killed between 1935-1950, thousand people killed in occuped by Red Army East European countries and dark age of unspoken political terror on "liberated" from German occupation countries...



And for Kahoku as traitor because he contacted SB for informations regarding Cerberus, i remember PRETTY WELL how Anderson send Shepard to Barla Von who was well known OFFICIAL Shadow Broker Citadel representrative... so please tell me this fact makes both Anderson and Shepard a traitors too?

Because following you way of toughts that's logical outcome of this turn of events.

You think how Wrex get his contract for Fist from SB if not via Barla Von and i am sure that Kahoku contacted Von too and Von don't made big secret anyway from fact for who he really work.



I think you are too quick whit accusing people for being traitors without presenting really hard evidence and believe me in real court your accusations will not only be dismissed but in reverse you could be prosecuted for false and unproven accusations.

[GuardianAngel470]

Oh, and traitor implies doing something that undermines your gov't or people's safety or security. Telling an enemy where your military is preparing an attack at is traitorous. Giving the Shadow Broker information that has no connection to the Alliance anymore (Kahoku says that Cerberus went rogue, not part of the alliance anymore) is not traitorous. It may be poor judgement, insubordination, or what have you, but it isn't traitorous.

[GuardianAngel470]

It would probably constitute a court martial, but they wouldn't execute him for treason.

[Asheer_Khan]

From that message which Kahoku send to Shepard i noticed that he known this will be one way trip without any single chance to return so he pass "lead" in this action to Shepard whit hope that she will find truth behind this entire story.

And to end i remember pretty good final notice regard Kahoku's body that "small blood point on his arm show TRUE cause of his death" because his body were untouched despite fact that there was a Rachni and husks there.

In other words he was MURDERED by poison injection and not died by heart attack.

[thegreateski]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
But are they bad enough dudes to save the President?

You should be shot for being that awesome.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sorry, don't know who's Steven Colbert. And no, just for laughs I post in there.

As to the Alliance Marines traitor, Kahoku is my favorite.

As to the prospect of my being court martialed for my affiliation with Cerberus, I think it'd make a helluva ME3 opening plot twist!

As to my "happy court martial" comment, it was aimed at the one suggesting, that it's OK to frag your commander if he forgot to sak your opinion on the plan of the mission.

www.colbertnation.com/home

News program run by a guy that pretends to be so ridiculously conservative that it's a comedy.  Fits you quite well... except you aren't funny.

The program looks like a good stuff.

Kahoku didn't get to be a traitor, he was murdered first by the rogue group that you're so busy sucking up to(why someone sucks up to a ficticious organization is beyond me, but whatever).  Just because you promise something, doesn't mean you have to deliver.  Granted, it could ****** the Shadow Broker off to the point of attempting to kill him, but he may have been willing for the sake of his men.  At any rate, he didn't commit treason, he was murdered before he could, even if he was going to.

Intention is enough to be labeled as a traitor. As well as passing sensitive information regarding your government employer to any person, that is outside of said government's chain of command. That means *your* Shepard too, although I'm aware that you don't stringently adhere to the principle that national law is superior to the international law.

Well, if might happen to a Renegade that gave this terrorist organization(this is their official status to the Alliance/Council, regardless of what you may make up otherwise) the Collector Base.  However, the Paragon dialogues leave us as Spectres and no further ties to Cerberus.  The Council themselves hoped a swift end to the association, and they got it.  In the end, we flipped TIM the bird and walked off with his multi-billion credit spacecraft that we can no have stripped of those Cerberus logos. 

What is this paragraph for? You want to hurt my renegade brain? You won't, because I'm an experienced doublethinker. Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!

As far as fragging your commander, yeah, they might get a court-martial over it.  However, if they can prove it was justified(IE:  Commander was commiting or about to commit treason despite protests otherwise), then the charges would be dropped.  In case you aren't aware, in the US it is your duty as a soldier to disobey if your CO issues an unlawful order.  If they persist, then it's your duty to relieve your CO of command.

Look, there are two ways you can do things in the military, US or whatever. "By the book", or "by the drill". And the drill is you don't second-guess your commanding officer unless he has obviously gone crazy. If he is not requesting your advice, it's his decision, and you can do nothing about it. Just go and die when & where (and if) he deems it fit. If he has a mission to accomplish (IE is under orders from his superiors) and you refuse to go in, he must force you to, even if it takes pointing a gun in your face. If you still refuse, he must pull the trigger, (IE to stop the ongoing mutiny). He can't afford to pass the word all the way up to the C-in-C to have a parliamentary hearing to vest the responsibility in "the people" for every tactical decision in the field, just because some of his subordinates feels he is not doing it "by the book". But luckily DIs beat this "by the book" BS out of the recruits early in the boot camp, so that the officers later on have to worry more about "accidental grenade drops", than "relievling of command".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 08:35 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Like companies getting Unions, a commander of a unit only gets fragged if he seriously has it coming. Basically, a completely renegade Shepherd is waiting for this to happen.

Believe me, every young lieutenant in the infantry knows the risks. Including this one. Fear cannot affect their decisions though.

You? A lieutenant in the infantry? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Please excuse my being a Doubting Thomas...and allow me to extend a pre-emptive "sorry to hear about that" when you get your rump shot off because of a poor tactical choice.

Did I say I am a lieutenant in the infantry?

All you need to know, if that's puzzling you, I have some experience of military service.

It did appear as if you did say that Zulu.  Reread the This one comment. It sounds like you are calling yourself a lieutenant. Just saying.

Oh, and anyone who frags their commanding officer needs to get shot.  If you join the military then you are signing away your right to decide your own actions.  Soldiers have to follow any command given by their commanding officer bar an illegal one.  Suicidal orders are not illegal.  Orders where you are told to shoot unarmed civilians are.  JAG code permits soldiers to disobey an order like that.

No, I have never been in the military, they won't take me.  I have a mental disorder that is medicated and I have bad scoliosis.  They just won't let me in.  My mother however was in the military an My dad works on an AFB and spends much of his time with officers and even generals.  He is also a military buff.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 31 mars 2010 - 08:11 .

[Sajuro]

Who knows, maybe TIM is being manipulated by another Reaper who wants to screw Harbringer over in a palpatine gambit, if Shepherd succeeds in defeating the reapers and made renegade choices: then the Reaper would be able to rule the galaxy by Proxy through TIM and the alliance. If Shepherd fails, the Reaper could volunteer to be the vanguard and instead of signaling the other reapers when the next race advanced enough comes along; the Reaper will just rule them with an iron... er... fist.

[Zulu_DFA]

@ GuardianAngel470 & Asheer_Khan

No. 5: Stalin was Uncle Joe.

It's not me who called him that. It was FDR. And that's what the Wiki redirects from to their "Stalin" page.

Stalin fared through WW2 better than Hitler, so you'll never be able to put the Gulag at the same level with the Holocaust. However, Communism fell and Stalin's name was smeared by his very close associates, after his death, so the Gulag is quite notorious. Much more so, than concentration camps for the Japanese residents in the US during WW2... You know, history is an exact science for the governmental organisations that keep classified materials deep down below. At school, history is just propaganda.

As to me being a horrible person... [shrugs] not nearly as "horrible" as TIM, so I can live with that.

As to the leght of this thread, it's not defeating the OP. Spamming Stalin and Hitler and Kahoku all over doesn't help it at all.

As to the Kahoku's treason, his opinion on Cerberus "going rogue" isn't excusing. Maybe the Alliance wants to deny any involvement, ever. And disclosing the sensitive information to Shepard is bad enough.

BTW, Asheer_Khan, have you reported me yet?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 08:28 .

[Zurcior]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

 Excuse me while I bang my head against my keyboard.

[crimzontearz]

I do not believe Cerberus is good...although I do believe Cerberus is secretely part the Alliance. Cerberus does what the alliance can't be publicly caught doing but needs done none the less. The alliance presents them as enemy to all but the very highest brass declaring them public enemies while benefitting from their results and so they have the best of both worlds

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ GuardianAngel470 & Asheer_Khan

No. 5: Stalin was Uncle Joe.

It's not me who called him that. It was FDR. And that's what the Wiki redirects from to their "Stalin" page.

Actually you have called him that several times. FDR called him that during WWII while the US and USSR were uneasy allies at best. You are calling him that after every sentient being not missing a third of their brain knows about the atrocities he committed.