468 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

It did appear as if you did say that Zulu.

Assumption is the mother of all fuсk-ups, they say in the military.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ GuardianAngel470 & Asheer_Khan

No. 5: Stalin was Uncle Joe.

It's not me who called him that. It was FDR. And that's what the Wiki redirects from to their "Stalin" page.

Actually you have called him that several times. FDR called him that during WWII while the US and USSR were uneasy allies at best. You are calling him that after every sentient being not missing a third of their brain knows about the atrocities he committed.

I mean, I wasn't the one to invent this nickname. I called him that 5 times in this thread after FDR.
FDR didn't have to call him that, if it was an "uneasy alliace for him". For example, Winston Churchill didn't, although he had talks with Stalin more times than Roosevelt.

BTW, I can't provide a link but I came across an explanation once for this "Uncle Joe". It said that it was an acknowledgement of Stalin's "title" of the Father of the Nations of the Soviet Union. That made Stalin the "Uncle of the American people". Stalin was FDR's Bro.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 08:46 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ GuardianAngel470 & Asheer_Khan

No. 5: Stalin was Uncle Joe.

It's not me who called him that. It was FDR. And that's what the Wiki redirects from to their "Stalin" page.

Stalin fared through WW2 better than Hitler, so you'll never be able to put the Gulag at the same level with the Holocaust. However, Communism fell and Stalin's name was smeared by his very close associates, after his death, so the Gulag is quite notorious. Much more so, than concentration camps for the Japanese residents in the US during WW2... You know, history is an exact science for the governmental organisations that keep classified materials deep down below. At school, history is just propaganda.

^FDR was too trusting moron when comes to deals whit Stalin and because of that my OWN COUNTRY fail for almost 60 years under russia dominance and we pay wery grave price for that so dont you even dare to pretend thay you have  a slight idea what was happened beyond IRON CURTAIN.

As to me being a horrible person... [shrugs] not nearly as "horrible" as TIM, so I can live with that.

As to the leght of this thread, it's not defeating the OP. Spamming Stalin and Hitler and Kahoku all over doesn't help it at all.

As to the Kahoku's treason, his opinion on Cerberus "going rogue" isn't excusing. Maybe the Alliance wants to deny any involvement, ever. And disclosing the sensitive information to Shepard is bad enough.

BTW, Asheer_Khan, have you reported me yet?

^You wish...

replys in bold

[Nostradamoose]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

I only read this, (sorry guys)

I wouldn't say Cerberus is good, but much rather that it is the lesser of the two evils. Kind of like saving Eden but only by letting the snake enter it.

[Destructo-Bot]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And a smart military leader will ask the opinion and take into account of subordinates

I think you should teach this innovative strategy at the West Point.

It's a very stupid or foolish officer that doesn't listen to the opinion of his sergeants. Being an officer is more than just delegation.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 31 mars 2010 - 08:45 .

[Nightwriter]

Oh, are we still arguing about whether or not Cerberus is evil?

They are EEEEVIIIIIIILL!




LISTEN TO THE MERMAID MAN.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Intention is enough to be labeled as a traitor. As well as passing sensitive information regarding your government employer to any person, that is outside of said government's chain of command. That means *your* Shepard too, although I'm aware that you don't stringently adhere to the principle that national law is superior to the international law.

Again, just because he *said* he would give the Shadow Broker information doesn't mean he was going to.  I'm sure you're aware of this, but people lie all the time.  Giving intel on an organization that has no further ties to the Alliance is perfectly fine.  This is information on a terrorist group being given to a Spectre.  This is like a US General sharing intel on Al Quaeda with the UN.  There's nothing wrong here, at all.

Well, if might happen to a Renegade that gave this terrorist organization(this is their official status to the Alliance/Council, regardless of what you may make up otherwise) the Collector Base.  However, the Paragon dialogues leave us as Spectres and no further ties to Cerberus.  The Council themselves hoped a swift end to the association, and they got it.  In the end, we flipped TIM the bird and walked off with his multi-billion credit spacecraft that we can no have stripped of those Cerberus logos. 

What is this paragraph for? You want to hurt my renegade brain? You won't, because I'm an experienced doublethinker. Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!

That paragraph was in response to your comments about a court-martial being an interesting plot twist for the beginning of ME3.  The Paragon path has the support of the Council and breaks their ties with Cerberus as the Council hoped.  The Renegade path remains a lacky to a known terrorist group and is technically a traitor to the Alliance and the Council. 

Look, there are two ways you can do things in the military, US or whatever. "By the book", or "by the drill". And the drill is you don't second-guess your commanding officer unless he has obviously gone crazy. If he is not requesting your advice, it's his decision, and you can do nothing about it. Just go and die when & where (and if) he deems it fit. If he has a mission to accomplish (IE is under orders from his superiors) and you refuse to go in, he must force you to, even if it takes pointing a gun in your face. If you still refuse, he must pull the trigger, (IE to stop the ongoing mutiny). He can't afford to pass the word all the way up to the C-in-C to have a parliamentary hearing to vest the responsibility in "the people" for every tactical decision in the field, just because some of his subordinates feels he is not doing it "by the book". But luckily DIs beat this "by the book" BS out of the recruits early in the boot camp, so that the officers later on have to worry more about "accidental grenade drops", than "relievling of command".

That's not remotely true at all.  You are *supposed* to second-guess unlawful orders.  The thread's already gone here, so I'll go ahead and use the example:  At Nurenberg, the defense of 'I was just following orders' held no weight whatsoever.  If your Commander issues an order to commit a war crime, then it is you *duty* to disobey.  This has nothign to do with 'by the book' as much as it does with violating international rules of war.  If your CO ordered you to shoot an unarmed civilian, it's your duty to disobey.  If he presses the issue, it's your *duty* to relieve him of his command.

You will probably have to face a court-martial to defend your mutiny.  However, when you're found correct in your actions, your CO will face his own court-martial, with much more severe charges than simply disobedience.

[Zulu_DFA]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And a smart military leader will ask the opinion and take into account of subordinates

I think you should teach this innovative strategy at the West Point.

It's a very stupid or foolish officer that doesn't listen to the opinion of his sergeants. Being an officer is more than just delegation.

Yet again. An officer does not listen to the opinions of his sergeants. He listens to their advice, and "advice" means factual information (technical expertice, recon data). Sergenats simply don't have enough information to form opinions in regard of the mission. Of course they have ones, but they are based on their assumptions as to what the mission objectives are. An officer may choose not to request their advice. An officer may choose to listen to their opinions, for the lulz.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 08:53 .

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Intention is enough to be labeled as a traitor. As well as passing sensitive information regarding your government employer to any person, that is outside of said government's chain of command. That means *your* Shepard too, although I'm aware that you don't stringently adhere to the principle that national law is superior to the international law.

Again, just because he *said* he would give the Shadow Broker information doesn't mean he was going to.  I'm sure you're aware of this, but people lie all the time.  Giving intel on an organization that has no further ties to the Alliance is perfectly fine.  This is information on a terrorist group being given to a Spectre.  This is like a US General sharing intel on Al Quaeda with the UN.  There's nothing wrong here, at all.

US generals don't do that, unless ordered to by more-star generals. Because UN cannot be trusted. It doesn't serve the American people. Do you even know, that a US soldier is not bound by Geneva Conventions? He is bount by the US Army regulations, that happen to fall well within the boundaries of the Geneva Conventions, but that is on the descretion of the President and the Congress. For the US law, UN is just a discussion club.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That paragraph was in response to your comments about a court-martial being an interesting plot twist for the beginning of ME3.  The Paragon path has the support of the Council and breaks their ties with Cerberus as the Council hoped.

That will be up to BioWare to decide...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
 At Nurenberg, the defense of 'I was just following orders' held no weight whatsoever. 

That's because the NАZIs had been badly f*cked militarily. And the Allies decided (absolutely right) to stage a cool political show, for the folks.

Who do you think would have been sitting on the bench there if Hitler had won? Those who refused to carry out his orders.

Red Army officers or soldiers weren't punished for "war crimes". Instead, they were punished for refusing to obey orders, like the #222 one.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Intention is enough to be labeled as a traitor. As well as passing sensitive information regarding your government employer to any person, that is outside of said government's chain of command. That means *your* Shepard too, although I'm aware that you don't stringently adhere to the principle that national law is superior to the international law.

Again, just because he *said* he would give the Shadow Broker information doesn't mean he was going to.  I'm sure you're aware of this, but people lie all the time.  Giving intel on an organization that has no further ties to the Alliance is perfectly fine.  This is information on a terrorist group being given to a Spectre.  This is like a US General sharing intel on Al Quaeda with the UN.  There's nothing wrong here, at all.

US generals don't do that, unless ordered to by more-star generals. Because UN cannot be trusted. It doesn't serve the American people. Do you even know, that a US soldier is not bound by Geneva Conventions? He is bount by the US Army regulations, that happen to fall well within the boundaries of the Geneva Conventions, but that is on the descretion of the President and the Congress. For the US law, UN is just a discussion club .

It was just a comparison, since the US really isn't under the direct jurisdiction of a larger governmental body.  That isn't the point.  The point was that he was giving intel he gained from an information broker to a higher authority(Spectre) to deal with the threat. 

Perhaps this more akin to a state officer giving information on an unlawful militant group to the FBI.  That fits the 'agent of smaller government giving intel on criminals to an agent of the larger government' situation better. 

Either way, this is information from a neutral party, on a secret, enemy organization, being given to an agent of the galaxy's ultimate law.  Giving Shepard the intel on Cerberus is no more treason than giving him a menu from a restaurant.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 31 mars 2010 - 09:09 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu, just admit that you lost. The title of this thread is, "Cerberus is Good, End of Story." Have you seen how long this thread is? If you haven't then I'll tell you. It is 16 pages. If you were right then it wouldn't have gotten past 2 pages. There would have been nothing to talk about because cerberus is good and there would be no arguing against that. Since there have been valid disagreements that means you were wrong, that one sentence doesn't sum up the situation.

Evolution is correct, end of story. How many 100+ page discussions do you think there are on the internet debating that though?

Oh, so true.

[kreite]

sigh you just don't get it ceberus may not be evil their just a bunch that strongly belive the ends justify the means but i like foreigners in real life and i like aliens in science fiction so cerberus will never be my friend cerberus does seem a bit narrow minded to me anything they see as benifical they will take withoot even thinking how its gonna eff up later

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Either way, this is information from a neutral party, on a secret, enemy organization, being given to an agent of the galaxy's ultimate law.  Giving Shepard the intel on Cerberus is no more treason than giving him a menu from a restaurant.

OK, You've almost convinced me here, that Kahoku should be acquitted on the charge of treason, but still, he was acting with no regard the "big picture". And for that, he deserved what got him. Anyway, I proclaim yet again that all this Kahoku business is irrelevant to the current (that is ME2) moral standing of Cerberus.

[Nightwriter]

kreite wrote...

sigh you just don't get it ceberus may not be evil their just a bunch that strongly belive the ends justify the means but i like foreigners in real life and i like aliens in science fiction so cerberus will never be my friend cerberus does seem a bit narrow minded to me anything they see as benifical they will take withoot even thinking how its gonna eff up later

Pretty much this.

DO YOU SURRENDER YET, ZULU?!!

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

DO YOU SURRENDER YET, ZULU?!!

NEVARR!!! VE VILL HOLD ZE LYEN!!!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 09:27 .

[kreite]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

DO YOU SURRENDER YET, ZULU?!!

NEVARR!!! VE VILL HOLD ZE LYEN!!!

oh fudgeing hell!
ceberus has too many divisions for anyone to truly label them good or evil but I do stand by my earlier statement there I've hopefully quelled the argument "hopeful expression"

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

DO YOU SURRENDER YET, ZULU?!!

NEVARR!!! VE VILL HOLD ZE LYEN!!!

YOUR DOWNFALL IS INEVITABLE!!! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!!!

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Either way, this is information from a neutral party, on a secret, enemy organization, being given to an agent of the galaxy's ultimate law.  Giving Shepard the intel on Cerberus is no more treason than giving him a menu from a restaurant.

OK, You've almost convinced me here, that Kahoku should be acquitted on the charge of treason, but still, he was acting with no regard the "big picture". And for that, he deserved what got him. Anyway, I proclaim yet again that all this Kahoku business is irrelevant to the current (that is ME2) moral standing of Cerberus.

So you're saying that ignoring a terrorist organization and letting them run their horrific experiments with impunity is the right thing to do?  What am I saying, of course you do.  The 'right' thing seems to be the very opposite of what you would do in any situation.  He didn't 'get what was coming to him', he was caught and murdered by terrorists because he discovered their existance. 

This is also all happening prior to the Reaper threat being known to anyone but those surrounding Shepard or the Council.  At this point Cerberus isn't working to stop them, they're just conducting heinous experiments for their own gain.  They set up a trap and murdered his unit.  He went to investigate, and the organization had him murdered.  I fail to see how this is deserved in any way, shape, or form. 

As for the topic at hand, every single bit of information available in-game or in the novels points to Cerberus being a terrorist organization that simply would like to survive the coming of the Reapers.  Even if their publicized goal of 'human advancement' were true, they threw it out the window when they murdered dozens of people for the sake of nothing but minor experiments.  There is no evidence to support your claim that Cerberus is good, only that they wish to not die... something instilled in the overwhelming majority of all lifeforms.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu, Cerberus is simply a necessary evil.



The fact of their necessity does not make them good.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
This is also all happening prior to the Reaper threat being known to anyone but those surrounding Shepard or the Council.  At this point Cerberus isn't working to stop them...

This is exactly why the whole Kahoku business is irrelevant. Ever since TIM knew about the Reapers, and has been working to stop them. R.I.P., Kahoku. And remember, "natural causes"...

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu, Cerberus is simply a necessary evil.

The fact of their necessity does not make them good.

This pinpoints me as an adherent of a philosophy system that proclaims that all necessary things are good. Even the "evil" ones. Because stating otherwise equals bashing you head against the wall.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2010 - 10:18 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
This is also all happening prior to the Reaper threat being known to anyone but those surrounding Shepard or the Council.  At this point Cerberus isn't working to stop them...

This is exactly why the whole Kahoku business is irrelevant. Ever since TIM knew about the Reapers, and has been working to stop them. R.I.P., Kahoku. And remember, "natural causes"...

Natural causes, my ass.  We saw the needle mark when we found his body inside the containment cell holding their test subjects. 

They may have been a necessary evil in ME2, but by no stretch of the imagination does that make them 'good'.  I still think you're trying to play ME2 Renegade version of Colbert.  That you aren't really as dense as you seem, and it's all really an act to attempt to get laughs.  Problem is, you aren't funny, at all.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
This is also all happening prior to the Reaper threat being known to anyone but those surrounding Shepard or the Council.  At this point Cerberus isn't working to stop them...

This is exactly why the whole Kahoku business is irrelevant. Ever since TIM knew about the Reapers, and has been working to stop them. R.I.P., Kahoku. And remember, "natural causes"...

Natural causes, my ass.  We saw the needle mark when we found his body inside the containment cell holding their test subjects. 

N A T U R A L   C A U S E S   .

End of story An entertainment news: Francis Kitt announced...

/ME1

Everything you hear on the news is canon! Or else you couldn't be able to even bring up those Hitler/Stalin soiled trumps from your sleeve.

And no, again. I am not being a comedian or a troll here. Ironic and sarcastic - very often, but not just for the sake of it.

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
This is also all happening prior to the Reaper threat being known to anyone but those surrounding Shepard or the Council.  At this point Cerberus isn't working to stop them...

This is exactly why the whole Kahoku business is irrelevant. Ever since TIM knew about the Reapers, and has been working to stop them. R.I.P., Kahoku. And remember, "natural causes"...

Natural causes, my ass.  We saw the needle mark when we found his body inside the containment cell holding their test subjects. 

They may have been a necessary evil in ME2, but by no stretch of the imagination does that make them 'good'.  I still think you're trying to play ME2 Renegade version of Colbert.  That you aren't really as dense as you seem, and it's all really an act to attempt to get laughs.  Problem is, you aren't funny, at all.

Hey, I disagree with him completely, and his hope of winning his arguments is futile, but... about funny...

Have you seen his Cerberus is building an army thread?