468 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You have forgotten Admiral Kahoku sir.  Cerberus at best has questionable motives.

Admiral Kahoku and Cerberus motives are irrelevant in this thread.

But that said, Kahoku, who entered a deal with the Shadow Broker and passed information on a former (or so he thought) Alliance division to the representative of an alien power (you, Council), is a traitor to the Alliance. He got what was coming to him.

Exactly.

[GuardianAngel470]

Sajuro wrote...

Juztinb42 wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The enemy of your enemy is only your friend so long as your mutual enemy is alive.

Once you've killed the enemy, sh*t changes. Don't think it won't in ME3, just as soon as the Reapers are dead.

TIM will be all, "Excellent, the Reapers are gone... now - THE GENOCIDE OF ALL ADVANCED RACES OTHER THAN HUMANITY!!! MWAH HAHAHA!!!"

Shepard: "Wait - what?"

I started to type this a few time, but didn't want to in this thread.

Guess I will, and I totally agree. The best ME3 ending to me, assuming we beat the reapers is that the game won't end with the final reaper battle. I still have issues to resolve, unfinished business. No matter how hard Bioware tried to retcon Cerebus, I remember their antics in ME1. After the reapers are defeated, I want a couple more missions to bring down Cerebus. Much like Cerebus used me, I used them. I don't like them, and want nothing more than once our mutual enemy is gone, to take them down as well.

I will be pissed if the game ends and IM rides off into the sunset to continue his agenda.

Definitely, they killed a lot of innocent people.  It would be anti-climactic to have Cerberus still exist.  I hope it can be an epilogue, sort of like the end of Casino Royale when everything is just about over, then Bond shoots the guy in the leg to set Quantum of Solace up.  Except I'd rather send IM to a prison ship for the rest of his life.

The Illusive man is walking around in his room when a communication from Shepherd comes in. "Shepherd, what do you have to sa?" Sees it is actually Tali who flips him off "What? where is shepherd?" -gets sniped in the leg-
Shepherd walks up with a highpowered sniper rifle and Illusive man asks "What the hell Shepherd, we had a DEAL."
Shepherd reloads "Yeah," he aims it at the illusive man's head, bringing up the trigger choices between renegade and paragon
Pulls Paragon
"Deal's off" Shepherd shoots Illusive Man in the head. "Tali, get Joker to pick me up, we have some dog hunting to do."

I love the scenario, but there is one flaw. Tali only has three fingers, how would she flip him off?

[RenownedRyan]

Nightwriter wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Yes. Thank you for reminding me, ADOLF.

Fun fact, reflections in irony: did anyone know Adolf means "noble hero"?

A common misconception. Adolf actually means "noble wolf."  Thus, Hitler named his private bunker the Wolf's Den, his dog Wolf, and post WWII the SS insurgents were named the Wehrwolves.

I heard this from a German history major.

His ego will be most deflated when I tell him this.

...

... I do look forward to it. A bit of deflation is not unneeded.

Well I'm glad I can aid you with your friend's ego-deflation. haha It is possible that the name has multiple meanings, but I've always heard that Adolf means Wolf.  My name, Ryan, can mean "Little King" or "Irish Knight" so he could still be right.  (or at least he can tell himself this to avoid serious deflation )

[Trench Coat]

Cerberus will save the universe by any means necessary. Does that make them the good guy? No, not really. At least not with their track record. 

"We Cerberus will save humanity at any cost! We will stop the Reapers from destroying the universe. Even if it means we have to kill the Asari, Drell, Elcor, Hanar, Salarian, Turian, Volus, Quarian, Batarian, Vorcha, Krogan, and every other sentient being in the universe to do it!"

The point of ^that is if you're going to save the universe, a real good guy wouldn't wipe out most of it in the process. But that's just my opinion. 

[Zulu_DFA]

RenownedRyan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


It's like TIM is a Yakuza boss in Nagasaki, who is the only one that believes the nuclear strike is imminent. Everyone else doesn't care.

Offensive.

What?

[DPSSOC]

While I am generally on the side of Cerberus (my loyalty can be bought so once the Council and Alliance forward me a paycheck I'll consider switching sides) there is a problem with the OP



Opposing evil, even opposing it because it's evil does not make you good. At best all it does is make you less evil than the thing you're opposing.

[RenownedRyan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You have forgotten Admiral Kahoku sir.  Cerberus at best has questionable motives.

Admiral Kahoku and Cerberus motives are irrelevant in this thread.

But that said, Kahoku, who entered a deal with the Shadow Broker and passed information on a former (or so he thought) Alliance division to the representative of an alien power (you, Council), is a traitor to the Alliance. He got what was coming to him.

True perhaps, but this wasn't Cerberus' intention.  You can't justify the other actions of Cerberus by any means.  I'm not saying Cerberus is evil.  They rebuild Shepard, and help to save the galaxy when no one else has the guts.  I respect the "Whatever It Takes" attitude of Cerberus, but all I'm saying is that they can't be classified as "good" just as they can't be classified as "evil".  Cerberus is willing to do what it takes when no one else is.

[RenownedRyan]

Trench Coat wrote...

Cerberus will save the universe by any means necessary. Does that make them the good guy? No, not really. At least not with their track record. 

"We Cerberus will save humanity at any cost! We will stop the Reapers from destroying the universe. Even if it means we have to kill the Asari, Drell, Elcor, Hanar, Salarian, Turian, Volus, Quarian, Batarian, Vorcha, Krogan, and every other sentient being in the universe to do it!"

The point of ^that is if you're going to save the universe, a real good guy wouldn't wipe out most of it in the process. But that's just my opinion. 

You hit the nail on the head.  As Shepard says, "I'm going to save the galaxy, and I'm going to do it in a way that won't sacrifices the inegrity or the human race as a species."

[Nightwriter]

RenownedRyan wrote...

Well I'm glad I can aid you with your friend's ego-deflation. haha It is possible that the name has multiple meanings, but I've always heard that Adolf means Wolf.  My name, Ryan, can mean "Little King" or "Irish Knight" so he could still be right.  (or at least he can tell himself this to avoid serious deflation )

Lol. Your compassion does you credit. Then again, you don't know him.

Actually, out of curiosity I just looked it up on a name meaning site. I think I see his mistake. "Adolph" seems to mean "noble hero", whereas "Adolf" means "noble wolf". 

I suppose that might be an easy mistake to make. But we're talking about a man who went out of his way to tell me "Anyways" was not a word, and that the correct word was "Anyway", with no S.

[enormousmoonboots]

Motives and actions don't matter in an alignment thread? Dohoho, now I know you trollin'. Just admit you love TIM for his VA, we all have our fictional crushes.



Attempting to save this thread with judicial application of Garrus...

[valkyrie0]

RenownedRyan wrote...

polyorpheus wrote...

As a counter-argument to the "friend of my friend is my enemy": What if Cerberus is WW2 Russia and the Reapers are **** Germany? For me, "good" and "bad" depends on what side you're on and what your viewpoints are, not necessarily inherent on the entities involved.

"Evil is a point of view" as Palpatine would say? The Red Army exercised inexcusable behavior towards innocent German people, so I'd say that for these war crimes (and many others) they're just as bad as the Third Reich.  Both sides commited awful crimes, but the Red Army itself was more brutal than the German Wehrmacht.  The leadership of **** Germany was most at fault, and their hate crimes towards the Jewish people are inexcusable, but in Russia's case the entire Red Army was responsible.  So there ya go.  A people, or organization as a whole cannot be entirely evil.  There are always good people involved.  Although Cerberus has many questionable actions (see Hades' Dogs in ME1) they are able to provide some redemption in ME2.  The Illusive Man is still a neutral personality at best, but Miranda and Jacob prove to be good people.

My analogy was more toward Russia first being our enemy (if you look at the peace treaty between Germany and Russia as making them an enemy) and the subsequent change to ally during WW2 when Germany decided to attack Russia. Then the Cold War in which both American and Russian sentiment toward each other was antagonistic. This temporary alliance reminded me of the working agreement (if not alliance) with Cerberus in ME2.

P.S. I do personally think that nations such as **** Germany, Cold War Russia and Communistic China under Mao act in an evil, dictatorial manner, but people exist that do not think so, so "good" and "evil" exist in the mind of a person and changes with an individual.

[RenownedRyan]

Nightwriter wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Well I'm glad I can aid you with your friend's ego-deflation. haha It is possible that the name has multiple meanings, but I've always heard that Adolf means Wolf.  My name, Ryan, can mean "Little King" or "Irish Knight" so he could still be right.  (or at least he can tell himself this to avoid serious deflation )

Lol. Your compassion does you credit. Then again, you don't know him.

Actually, out of curiosity I just looked it up on a name meaning site. I think I see his mistake. "Adolph" seems to mean "noble hero", whereas "Adolf" means "noble wolf". 

I suppose that might be an easy mistake to make. But we're talking about a man who went out of his way to tell me "Anyways" was not a word, and that the correct word was "Anyway", with no S.

Someone has made the same comment to me, an English teacher in Junior High. I still disagree, anyways is a word. Mos def.

[Onyx Jaguar]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Motives and actions don't matter in an alignment thread? Dohoho, now I know you trollin'. Just admit you love TIM for his VA, we all have our fictional crushes.

Attempting to save this thread with judicial application of Garrus...

Please tell me that I'm not the only one that thinks this picture looks strange.

[Sajuro]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Juztinb42 wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The enemy of your enemy is only your friend so long as your mutual enemy is alive.

Once you've killed the enemy, sh*t changes. Don't think it won't in ME3, just as soon as the Reapers are dead.

TIM will be all, "Excellent, the Reapers are gone... now - THE GENOCIDE OF ALL ADVANCED RACES OTHER THAN HUMANITY!!! MWAH HAHAHA!!!"

Shepard: "Wait - what?"

I started to type this a few time, but didn't want to in this thread.

Guess I will, and I totally agree. The best ME3 ending to me, assuming we beat the reapers is that the game won't end with the final reaper battle. I still have issues to resolve, unfinished business. No matter how hard Bioware tried to retcon Cerebus, I remember their antics in ME1. After the reapers are defeated, I want a couple more missions to bring down Cerebus. Much like Cerebus used me, I used them. I don't like them, and want nothing more than once our mutual enemy is gone, to take them down as well.

I will be pissed if the game ends and IM rides off into the sunset to continue his agenda.

Definitely, they killed a lot of innocent people.  It would be anti-climactic to have Cerberus still exist.  I hope it can be an epilogue, sort of like the end of Casino Royale when everything is just about over, then Bond shoots the guy in the leg to set Quantum of Solace up.  Except I'd rather send IM to a prison ship for the rest of his life.

The Illusive man is walking around in his room when a communication from Shepherd comes in. "Shepherd, what do you have to sa?" Sees it is actually Tali who flips him off "What? where is shepherd?" -gets sniped in the leg-
Shepherd walks up with a highpowered sniper rifle and Illusive man asks "What the hell Shepherd, we had a DEAL."
Shepherd reloads "Yeah," he aims it at the illusive man's head, bringing up the trigger choices between renegade and paragon
Pulls Paragon
"Deal's off" Shepherd shoots Illusive Man in the head. "Tali, get Joker to pick me up, we have some dog hunting to do."

I love the scenario, but there is one flaw. Tali only has three fingers, how would she flip him off?

The finger in the middle, she does have a thumb too.
What would the Renegade option be?

[RenownedRyan]

polyorpheus wrote...

My analogy was more toward Russia first being our enemy (if you look at the peace treaty between Germany and Russia as making them an enemy) and the subsequent change to ally during WW2 when Germany decided to attack Russia. Then the Cold War in which both American and Russian sentiment toward each other was antagonistic. This temporary alliance reminded me of the working agreement (if not alliance) with Cerberus in ME2.

P.S. I do personally think that nations such as **** Germany, Cold War Russia and Communistic China under Mao act in an evil, dictatorial manner, but people exist that do not think so, so "good" and "evil" exist in the mind of a person and changes with an individual.

Ah, my mistake.  I apologize for my misunderstanding.  An excellent analogy on your part I may add.

As for the P.S. I agree with you in regard to those nations, and I cannot deny that they still have their supporters.  You seem like a very astute individual.

[RenownedRyan]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Motives and actions don't matter in an alignment thread? Dohoho, now I know you trollin'. Just admit you love TIM for his VA, we all have our fictional crushes.

Attempting to save this thread with judicial application of Garrus...

Please tell me that I'm not the only one that thinks this picture looks strange.

You're not the only one who thinks that picture looks strange.  I am confused as well.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The point is all those pro et contras are actually irrelevant in the face of the Reapers. The Cerberus are the only ones that stand against them, and this make them what we call "good".

Ah. Now this is where we all disagree with you, the heart of the matter - what exactly is "good"? We seem to have different definitions of the word.

I believe that the fact that Cerberus are the only ones who will stand against the Reapers makes them needed, but not ultimately good. Fact is, if the Reapers weren't here, Cerberus wouldn't be good at all, not even by your definition of the word.

And all the whining about Kahoku, Akuze and other dirty pranks of TIM, just tells that the person whining does not take the Reapers seriously.

It's like TIM is a Yakuza boss in Nagasaki, who is the only one that believes the nuclear strike is imminent. Everyone else doesn't care.

Of course we take the Reapers seriously, that's why we're working with Cerberus when we don't want to. Cerberus are the only ones who've got their heads on straight. It kills me to say it, but it's true.

They're also power-hungry bastards who have committed serious crimes intentionally and who act only out of self-interest.

My working definition of "Good" is "opposite of Evil". And the "end of all life as we know it" falls well within the boundaries of "Evil" (to me, personally). Which means the the organization that stands agains the Reapers, that are as Shepard (and every player) is aware, exactly "the end of all life as we know it". This makes Cerberus "opposite of Evil", aka "Good". End of story. Everything else is rant.

And this covers well the scope of all the grief about aliens and humans. Even if as a result of Cerberus activity there are just TIM and Miranda left in the entire Galaxy, it's still good. Because, "else" there is nothing left. Only the Reapers, and their cycle of extinction, that is evil. And given the inability of any other power center in the Galaxy to acknowledge the Reaper threat, Cerberus is the only chance of the "life as we know it" to continue.

And the definition of "rant" well covers the paragon's argument that "the true hero always will find a way to make everyone happy". because it's no true. Because sometimes there is no such a way, and sometimes there is no way to make anyone happy if what is right needs to be done. And the plot of Mass Effect well may provide a hypothetical example of such a situation.

[Nightwriter]

I too am trying to solve the mystery of the magical repeating chestplate.

[Daurf815]

RenownedRyan wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Motives and actions don't matter in an alignment thread? Dohoho, now I know you trollin'. Just admit you love TIM for his VA, we all have our fictional crushes.

Attempting to save this thread with judicial application of Garrus...

Please tell me that I'm not the only one that thinks this picture looks strange.

You're not the only one who thinks that picture looks strange.  I am confused as well.

I see the face

[Daurf815]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

(To Shepard's knowledge, nobody else is doing anything about the Reapers, which means Cerberus is the best.)

End of story (at least until the Reapers are history).

I support Cerberus because it's the best god damn chance to have Zaeed on my team in ME3 (they are paying him)

[Sajuro]

Daurf815 wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Motives and actions don't matter in an alignment thread? Dohoho, now I know you trollin'. Just admit you love TIM for his VA, we all have our fictional crushes.

Attempting to save this thread with judicial application of Garrus...

Please tell me that I'm not the only one that thinks this picture looks strange.

You're not the only one who thinks that picture looks strange.  I am confused as well.

I see the face

Looks like a gunman...
wait.... Garrus' lower body is a gunman and his helmet also has a face
Garrus is Gurren Lagann!

[DPSSOC]

Sajuro wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Juztinb42 wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The enemy of your enemy is only your friend so long as your mutual enemy is alive.

Once you've killed the enemy, sh*t changes. Don't think it won't in ME3, just as soon as the Reapers are dead.

TIM will be all, "Excellent, the Reapers are gone... now - THE GENOCIDE OF ALL ADVANCED RACES OTHER THAN HUMANITY!!! MWAH HAHAHA!!!"

Shepard: "Wait - what?"

I started to type this a few time, but didn't want to in this thread.

Guess I will, and I totally agree. The best ME3 ending to me, assuming we beat the reapers is that the game won't end with the final reaper battle. I still have issues to resolve, unfinished business. No matter how hard Bioware tried to retcon Cerebus, I remember their antics in ME1. After the reapers are defeated, I want a couple more missions to bring down Cerebus. Much like Cerebus used me, I used them. I don't like them, and want nothing more than once our mutual enemy is gone, to take them down as well.

I will be pissed if the game ends and IM rides off into the sunset to continue his agenda.

Definitely, they killed a lot of innocent people.  It would be anti-climactic to have Cerberus still exist.  I hope it can be an epilogue, sort of like the end of Casino Royale when everything is just about over, then Bond shoots the guy in the leg to set Quantum of Solace up.  Except I'd rather send IM to a prison ship for the rest of his life.

The Illusive man is walking around in his room when a communication from Shepherd comes in. "Shepherd, what do you have to sa?" Sees it is actually Tali who flips him off "What? where is shepherd?" -gets sniped in the leg-
Shepherd walks up with a highpowered sniper rifle and Illusive man asks "What the hell Shepherd, we had a DEAL."
Shepherd reloads "Yeah," he aims it at the illusive man's head, bringing up the trigger choices between renegade and paragon
Pulls Paragon
"Deal's off" Shepherd shoots Illusive Man in the head. "Tali, get Joker to pick me up, we have some dog hunting to do."

I love the scenario, but there is one flaw. Tali only has three fingers, how would she flip him off?

The finger in the middle, she does have a thumb too.
What would the Renegade option be?

Pulls Renegade
"Things change." Shoots TIM in the head then goes to sit in his chair and takes up his smoke (what is that anyway cigarette, cigar, joint?)  "Tali could you send Miranda in, we've got a lot of work to do."

[Sajuro]

DPSSOC wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Juztinb42 wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The enemy of your enemy is only your friend so long as your mutual enemy is alive.

Once you've killed the enemy, sh*t changes. Don't think it won't in ME3, just as soon as the Reapers are dead.

TIM will be all, "Excellent, the Reapers are gone... now - THE GENOCIDE OF ALL ADVANCED RACES OTHER THAN HUMANITY!!! MWAH HAHAHA!!!"

Shepard: "Wait - what?"

I started to type this a few time, but didn't want to in this thread.

Guess I will, and I totally agree. The best ME3 ending to me, assuming we beat the reapers is that the game won't end with the final reaper battle. I still have issues to resolve, unfinished business. No matter how hard Bioware tried to retcon Cerebus, I remember their antics in ME1. After the reapers are defeated, I want a couple more missions to bring down Cerebus. Much like Cerebus used me, I used them. I don't like them, and want nothing more than once our mutual enemy is gone, to take them down as well.

I will be pissed if the game ends and IM rides off into the sunset to continue his agenda.

Definitely, they killed a lot of innocent people.  It would be anti-climactic to have Cerberus still exist.  I hope it can be an epilogue, sort of like the end of Casino Royale when everything is just about over, then Bond shoots the guy in the leg to set Quantum of Solace up.  Except I'd rather send IM to a prison ship for the rest of his life.

The Illusive man is walking around in his room when a communication from Shepherd comes in. "Shepherd, what do you have to sa?" Sees it is actually Tali who flips him off "What? where is shepherd?" -gets sniped in the leg-
Shepherd walks up with a highpowered sniper rifle and Illusive man asks "What the hell Shepherd, we had a DEAL."
Shepherd reloads "Yeah," he aims it at the illusive man's head, bringing up the trigger choices between renegade and paragon
Pulls Paragon
"Deal's off" Shepherd shoots Illusive Man in the head. "Tali, get Joker to pick me up, we have some dog hunting to do."

I love the scenario, but there is one flaw. Tali only has three fingers, how would she flip him off?

The finger in the middle, she does have a thumb too.
What would the Renegade option be?

Pulls Renegade
"Things change." Shoots TIM in the head then goes to sit in his chair and takes up his smoke (what is that anyway cigarette, cigar, joint?)  "Tali could you send Miranda in, we've got a lot of work to do."

pretty sure it's a cuban cigar and F--k yes!

[Daurf815]

TiM is the most badass mother****er in the ME universe, except maybe Shepherd, but TiM's voice acting defeats Shep leaving TiM the victor

[Kusy]

Zulu_DFA - you are relativising "good" and "evil". A Pedofile who hates murderes is still a pedofile. A sick organisation that would love to see aliens as slaves, doesn't hesitate to experiment on living subjects including children and is ready to betray anyone anytime is still what it is, no mather what they are fighting.



Saying Cerberus is good only because they want to fight the Reapers doesn't make sense. I can agree - ONE of their goals is just. And that's the only good thing about Cerberus... you can also say that It's good that they want to fight the reapers, but I will not agree on saying that they are good because of it.



This way you can also say that what Saren did with that infamous rafinery on some batarian world was also good AND ALSO Saren was good. He finshed his job, he killed the target, however he killed thousands of innocents and tortured few other people just to get what he wants.