468 réponses à ce sujet

[Xaijin]

bioware.com

Secondly, the burden of proof is on you.

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 mars 2010 - 02:42 .

[Trench Coat]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Big Yam wrote...

Not good, but good for humanity. May have to kill them after the reapers. Until then, they're friends.

= good.

I respect your opinion. But alot of people's opinion of good is very different. He who fights evil is not a hero to be praised. Actions alone are worth nothing without the reasoning behind them.

You ever watch an episode of a T.V. show where a Hero and Villain team up to fight a greater threat? The Villain is still evil, but it's in his common interest to help the Hero. Does fighting the greater threat make the Villain a good guy? No, because at the end he goes back to fighting the Hero.

[Time Well Spent]

Sorry, drunk, but, Isn't turning Paul Greyson into a Reaper/Human hybrid a little evil, plus attacking the Migrant Fleet to get to Gillian was a little bad, yay, its's like 3.43 cool

[Arijharn]

Xaijin wrote...

That' exactly what Cerberus is about to do.

Proof is where?

It's funny how all the pro guys keep posting absolutes with zero proof.

I don't know about you, but I'd really like to play this awesome version of ME3 you keep talking about in past tense.

Trolltastic theorycraft is theory.

Reapers represent a threat to all life, even if Harbinger and the Collector's currently have the hots for just humanity.

Destroying the Collector power base (albeit, not the base itself) establishes a technological foothold against the Reaper invasion (who, once again, represent a threat to all life).

No other species is prepared to back Cmdr. Shephard other than some individuals. (Where are the Rachni in ME2 other than a courier's 'channelling'?)

What version of Mass Effect 2 were you playing?

[Booglarize]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

That' exactly what Cerberus is about to do.

Proof is where?

You "Cerberus is Evil" guys were here first. So, the proof is where?

Hmm? Didn't you make this thread? I don't see how he could've gotten here before you.

In any event...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

Opposing someone who is evil does not make you good in and of itself. By way of example, it's pretty clear that Hitler was evil, but I can't think of too many people who'd argue that Stalin was "good" simply because he opposed him. 

[Xaijin]

Arijharn wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

That' exactly what Cerberus is about to do.

Proof is where?

It's funny how all the pro guys keep posting absolutes with zero proof.

I don't know about you, but I'd really like to play this awesome version of ME3 you keep talking about in past tense.

Trolltastic theorycraft is theory.

Reapers represent a threat to all life, even if Harbinger and the Collector's currently have the hots for just humanity.

Destroying the Collector power base (albeit, not the base itself) establishes a technological foothold against the Reaper invasion (who, once again, represent a threat to all life).

No other species is prepared to back Cmdr. Shephard other than some individuals. (Where are the Rachni in ME2 other than a courier's 'channelling'?)

What version of Mass Effect 2 were you playing?

Actually I played a version of ME 1 where a reaper was ripped to shreds by the least technologically savvy/most biologically fragile race in the council space excepting vorcha and krogan. I played a version of ME2 where a single massive RG.MD shot ripped a Reaper into torpor, tehcnology which is currently avaialble. The Protheans didn't have a coalition. I do.

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 mars 2010 - 02:54 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Xaijin wrote...

bioware.com

Secondly, the burden of proof is on you.

No, I say Cerberus is white and fluffy.

You say they are murderers. The burden of proof is on you.

Don't bother to bring up Toombs and Kahoku's testimony. One is a murderer himself and the other is a traitor.

Besides, You need to catch TIM first.

And what do you mean by this "bioware.com"? You get all kinds of their kewl DLC stuff from "Cerberus".

[Arijharn]

Xaijin wrote...

Actually I played a version of ME 1 where a reaper was ripped to shreds by the least technologically savvy/most biologically fragile race in the council space excepting vorcha and krogan. I played a version of ME2 where a single massive RG.MD shot ripped a Reaper into torpor, tehcnology which is currently avaialble. The Protheans didn't have a coalition. I do.

Well, that's a strange coincidence, because that's what happened in mine... but where are your retorts to what I actually typed?

I like debating with you Xai You do a good job... although obviously we'll never sway each other, it's still fun!

[Booglarize]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


No, I say Cerberus is white and fluffy.

You say they are murderers. The burden of proof is on you.

Don't bother to bring up Toombs and Kahoku's testimony. One is a murderer himself and the other is a traitor.

Besides, You need to catch TIM first.

And what do you mean by this "bioware.com"? You get all kinds of their kewl DLC stuff from "Cerberus".

Ah, so it would seem that you're just trolling all along (honestly, at this point I have a really hard time taking something like that seriously). I really should have known; the logical fallacies were a bit too obvious. Well played I suppose; you did end up with quite a few bites. 

[Trench Coat]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

That' exactly what Cerberus is about to do.

Proof is where?

You "Cerberus is Evil" guys were here first. So, the proof is where?

Sorry didn't notice you asked for proof. This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Zulu_DFA]

Booglarize wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

That' exactly what Cerberus is about to do.

Proof is where?

You "Cerberus is Evil" guys were here first. So, the proof is where?

Hmm? Didn't you make this thread? I don't see how he could've gotten here before you.

I mean the forums here.

Booglarize wrote...
In any event...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Reapers are the end of all life as we know it. They are Evil.

Cerberus opposes the Reapers. Cerberus is Good.

Opposing someone who is evil does not make you good in and of itself. By way of example, it's pretty clear that Hitler was evil, but I can't think of too many people who'd argue that Stalin was "good" simply because he opposed him. 

Stalin was ...

go to http://en.wikipedia.org/
and search for "uncle Joe"

You don't call an evil person "Uncle".

[Time Well Spent]

Cerberus are space racists, end of story, oops too many shots

[Sky Shadowing]

There are shades of grey here. Supporting the salvation of the galaxy and supporting the ascendency of the Human race are not mutually exclusive.



As worn out as they are, analogies can best be drawn to WWII. Hitler and Stalin are both thought of as tyrannical dictators, but they were on opposite sides of the war. It was an alliance of necessity, not an alliance of willingness. And afterwards America and the USSR started carving the world up, with their allies, into spheres of influence.



Cerberus and the Reapers are like Stalin and Hitler. Cerberus is a powerful force in direct opposition to the Reapers, the Big Bad Guys. That doesn't make them angels.



Hell, the greatest thing Bioware has done is get away from the "good vs. evil" cliche and introduce a world in which choices can be made with logic. They screwed that up at the end of ME2 (where it becomes "Cerberus will do evil with the base" against "I want Cerberus to have this base so they can use it against the other alien species after the Reapers." This discussion has been done to death, so I digress.



There are no clear cut lines. Shepard himself can be evil if you want him to be. In the end, it's a choice- do you NOT side with Cerberus, the ONLY party who's doing anything to stop the Reapers, against an "alliance of necessity", and risk letting the universe get Reaped, or do you swallow your pride and do what's right, fully knowing that Cerberus has other goals that you may not agree with?



tldr: There is no clear-cut "good" vs. "evil". Cerberus is as Grey as it gets.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, I say Cerberus is white and fluffy.

You say they are murderers. The burden of proof is on you.

Don't bother to bring up Toombs and Kahoku's testimony. One is a murderer himself and the other is a traitor.

In my playthrough I do not remember Toombs murdering anyone. And even if he did, guess who pushed him there? No one gets to the edge on their own.

And Kahoku! Look, he just wanted to find his men. He cared about them, he was a good guy. I really don't care that he went through the Shadow Broker - the SB is supposed to be a neutral intermediary who provides simple information gathering services to people who need it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Council themselves used the SB in the past.

And anyway, no one else would help Kahoku, and he was desperate. It was clear Cerberus had gone rogue and was doing naughty things, so giving the SB their secrets paled in comparison to not finding those Alliance soldiers. Did he do questionable things to find his men? Yeah, but he was a good officer, a good commander.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 30 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[Xaijin]

No dude, it's on you. You'll find passive aggressive truisms of little (ie no) use in this particular venue.

Furthermore, I haven't stated anything in regards to Cerberus other than the racist loyalist tendencies displayed by certain members, including the apparent leader. So youcan stop attempting to grasp at a premise which doesn't exist in anything I've stated other than a butt-obvious parallel to historically extant regimes of the past.

In any case, all I've seen from the pro camp is logical fallacy combined with stereotypical "realist" (ie wannabe politico-nihilist) pandering that actually not only don't have a basis in the real world, additionally don't have no basis in the cogent narrative other than the basic premise of a human military bureaucracy is both lethargic and incompetent, wow what a shocking and unprecedented thematic development. Never seen that before in story or real life.

I've asked for extant refutation based on developer input and video interviews or game footage, and only received giant walls of letter based obfuscation.

Post proof or retract.

(hint: neither One time in the military I didn't get what I want, nor I'm easily indoctrinated (ironic) by people in authority telling me stuff without me checking the veracity nor I borrowed this other theory from a different venue is proof)

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 mars 2010 - 04:47 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Trench Coat wrote...
This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

This is Pat Tillman.
A successful American Football player who threw his multi-million dollar carrer out of the window and joined the Rangers after 9/11. He was sent to Afganistan and killed there by friendly fire. He was 27.

Now, call America Evil.

[Arijharn]

Why is it clear that Cerberus went rogue? Because Kahoku said so? Because Mass Effect wiki said so?



Look, Toombs is as unbalanced as they come, and sure that could be Cerberus' actions... or the actual psychological trauma of a Thresher Maw's attack. Did Cerberus pre-plan the alliance marines to drop into the colony to investigate it, or did they just try to salvage it so there could be some good to come out of the catastrophe?



If the Council is willing to dismiss the accounts of one 'traumatized dock worker' then I guess it's okay to dismiss the account of one psychologically unbalanced former marine.

[Xaijin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trench Coat wrote...
This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

This is Pat Tillman.
A successful American Football player who threw his multi-million dollar carrer out of the window and joined the Rangers after 9/11. He was sent to Afganistan and killed there by friendly fire. He was 27.

Now, call America Evil.

Irrelevant. Cerberus is neither America nor the Tillman family.

[Sky Shadowing]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trench Coat wrote...
This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

This is Pat Tillman.
A successful American Football player who threw his multi-million dollar carrer out of the window and joined the Rangers after 9/11. He was sent to Afganistan and killed there by friendly fire. He was 27.

Now, call America Evil.

The debate about Cerberus isn't whether the ends justify the means, it's whether the ends themselves are justified.

Tillman's death was a tragic accident, one that is, unfortunately, a part of war. But the fact remains that Tillman was a willing United States Soldier, one who had volunteered for the position. The colonists Cerberus huskified, the ones the Thresher Maw devoured, Gillian Grayson, were innocent bystanders who Cerberus happened to "recruit" for their experiments.

If you say the "ends justify the means", when Cerberus's goal is the establishment of a humanity led galaxy, openly setting humanity in a place of power above all else, I have one other thing to say to you- that was Saren Arterius's goal as well, except with Turians.

If you think murdering innocent civillians is a necessary part of "war", then obviously you feel other events, like 9/11, were justified.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trench Coat wrote...
This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

This is Pat Tillman.
A successful American Football player who threw his multi-million dollar carrer out of the window and joined the Rangers after 9/11. He was sent to Afganistan and killed there by friendly fire. He was 27.

Now, call America Evil.

Irrelevant. Cerberus is neither America nor the Tillman family.

So is Veetor. Were saving a galaxy here, not some freaky quarian.

[Nightwriter]

I think there are a lot of people in Cerberus who are just being manipulated by TIM. I was kind of surprised at how many good people with good intentions they had working there - Miranda, Jacob, Kelly, Gabby and Donnelly...

While they might think they are joining to do good, and TIM might encourage that thought, it seems like he's still ultimately using them as tools to further his power.

[TheLostGenius]

"Cereberus is not as evil as you think." Says TIM. Better said, Lied TIM.

[Xaijin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trench Coat wrote...
This is Veetor, he was a little off when you first met him. But Cerberus fixed him up.

www.youtube.com/watch

This is Pat Tillman.
A successful American Football player who threw his multi-million dollar carrer out of the window and joined the Rangers after 9/11. He was sent to Afganistan and killed there by friendly fire. He was 27.

Now, call America Evil.

Irrelevant. Cerberus is neither America nor the Tillman family.

So is Veetor. Were saving a galaxy here, not some freaky quarian.

There is no we, and Veetor was never mentioned in relation Cerberus as an organization, Veetor's fate is hinged on Shepard.


It's cute to watch you skate around like a mouse in a greased hamster ball but I'm still waiting on that ME3 video, dude.

Anytime now.

Proof remember; from video or 1st party BioWare interview.

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 mars 2010 - 03:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Booglarize wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


No, I say Cerberus is white and fluffy.

You say they are murderers. The burden of proof is on you.

Don't bother to bring up Toombs and Kahoku's testimony. One is a murderer himself and the other is a traitor.

Besides, You need to catch TIM first.

And what do you mean by this "bioware.com"? You get all kinds of their kewl DLC stuff from "Cerberus".

Ah, so it would seem that you're just trolling all along (honestly, at this point I have a really hard time taking something like that seriously). I really should have known; the logical fallacies were a bit too obvious. Well played I suppose; you did end up with quite a few bites. 

Show me a fallacy.