128 réponses à ce sujet

[Spartas Husky]

Radar E 33 wrote...

1) You must be our obedient slaves
2) You must not question our authority to do as we will with you
3) we reserve the right to kill you if you displease us or get us into trouble.

And that is why i have no sympathy for the Quarians; they blame everyone else for their banishment and their predicament. They trash worlds, have no respect for current council rulings, and refuse to acknowledge their sins...
 
I foresee Admiral Xen starting an interstellar war between the Quarians and the Geth,and you'll be tasked to either resolve it peacefully,kill Xen and her supporters,or back one side over the other.

Most of it is true. But I dont give a damn if they trash world, most of them are empty piecs of void land so who cares.

If the system is under "development" then is open for anyone to come across it. Alliance did the same with the batarians, nothing bad there.

Council rullings?? hahahahaha, that is like scolding somebody for not respecting the UN....seriously Council is the same thing.

Both parties are to blame, but true, unlike the Geth, quarians still think "is their homeworld".... so we are in agreement for the mos tpart.

Their "homeworld" was theirs until the moment they lost it.

They have the right to try to retake it....just as any man has the right to throw himself out of a building, whether he flies or not, that is on his neck nobody elses.

[abstractwhiz]

Shandepared wrote...

You can't be racist against a machine nor can you commit a crime against a machine. It is not a person.

Organic chauvinism. <_<

[The Governator]

Vaenier wrote...

Quarians will win if they finish their uber virus. Geth will win if Quarians cant make uber virus.
I support peace. But if war does break out, I would side with the Geth. The Quarians are basically going biological warfare to commit genocide on a race. Not cool at all.

I would totally side with the Quarians.  Sapient species versus out of control ascendant AIs?  Quarians all the way.  Geth evince no understanding of emotions.  Self preservation is not an emotion.  It is an instinct, albeit an important one, it is only an animal level instinct.  Get are sophisticated, but are nothing more than simulations.  They are not actually sentient in my view and aeons from sapience.

[Internet Kraken]

The Governator wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Quarians will win if they finish their uber virus. Geth will win if Quarians cant make uber virus.
I support peace. But if war does break out, I would side with the Geth. The Quarians are basically going biological warfare to commit genocide on a race. Not cool at all.

I would totally side with the Quarians.  Sapient species versus out of control ascendant AIs?  Quarians all the way.  Geth evince no understanding of emotions.  Self preservation is not an emotion.  It is an instinct, albeit an important one, it is only an animal level instinct.  Get are sophisticated, but are nothing more than simulations.  They are not actually sentient in my view and aeons from sapience.

I'm pretty sure the Geth do have some emotions though. If they didn't, why would the heretic worship the Reapers as gods? The praying Geth in Mass Effect 1 suggested that they had emotions. How does a creature without emotions pray?

[Spartas Husky]

abstractwhiz wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

You can't be racist against a machine nor can you commit a crime against a machine. It is not a person.

Organic chauvinism. <_<

They are a "race" whether is organic or not, it is a race.

There has never been any like them. SO you have to ask them.

Is there "racist" amongst you...."class" warfare.

Do you have amongst your selfs...."greed" or ".............hehehe wth lust"

They believe it is wrong to experiments on their....bretheren, so it means that is something they hold dear, and we must respect that. If we dont we are commiting a crime against them. And then reprecussions are to be expected.

[abstractwhiz]

The Governator wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Quarians will win if they finish their uber virus. Geth will win if Quarians cant make uber virus.
I support peace. But if war does break out, I would side with the Geth. The Quarians are basically going biological warfare to commit genocide on a race. Not cool at all.

I would totally side with the Quarians.  Sapient species versus out of control ascendant AIs?  Quarians all the way.  Geth evince no understanding of emotions.  Self preservation is not an emotion.  It is an instinct, albeit an important one, it is only an animal level instinct.  Get are sophisticated, but are nothing more than simulations.  They are not actually sentient in my view and aeons from sapience.

Within the Mass Effect universe, it's pretty clear that they're supposed to be sapient. The most you can say is that their intelligence is different from organic intelligence in several ways.

On the other hand, if you're basing your reasoning on real life, then it's still an open question, and there's no good reason to rule out AI. The most you can do is what Mordin would suggest: "Get doctorate, have real conversation." 

[pf17456]

So what happens when the quest for techonological advance leads to the creation of a sentient life ?

Quarians were clearly unprepared for that outcome and reacted to the fear of having created something they could not control resulting in a decision to correct what they believed to be a mistake either by destroying their creation or altering the program to eliminate sentience the result of which was the Geth defending their right to exist. The cost of the ensuing war left the Quarians on the verge of extinction loosing their world and becoming a group of nomadic space wandering scavengers with fragmented opinions of which direction to take in order to survive. Some are intent on continuing a war while others want to re establish control and others who simply want a home world. If the Geth heritics have been re written then they no longer pose a threat to organic life provided they're not attacked leaving Tali in the unique position of being capable of providing leadership to her people which could result in their focusing on restoring their own immune systems and finding a place to settle. Legion could assist Tali in accomplishing this goal and unify the Quarians. If the Geth heritics have not been re written they continue to pose a threat to all organics as well as Geth opting for self determination and are alligned with the Reapers. Either way the Quarians will need to resolve their fragmented opinions of how to best achieve their goals and realize that the real threat lies with the Reapers. If the Quarians choose to proceed with war or re establishing control of the Geth then they better have a very good program, not unlike the Reaper program used on the heritics, to accomplish this or they become toast. I suppose this type of techonology could be possible if Cerberus acquired the Collecter base and is willing to share.

[Radar E 33]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Radar E 33 wrote...

1) You must be our obedient slaves
2) You must not question our authority to do as we will with you
3) we reserve the right to kill you if you displease us or get us into trouble.

And that is why i have no sympathy for the Quarians; they blame everyone else for their banishment and their predicament. They trash worlds, have no respect for current council rulings, and refuse to acknowledge their sins...
 
I foresee Admiral Xen starting an interstellar war between the Quarians and the Geth,and you'll be tasked to either resolve it peacefully,kill Xen and her supporters,or back one side over the other.

Most of it is true. But I dont give a damn if they trash world, most of them are empty piecs of void land so who cares.

If the system is under "development" then is open for anyone to come across it. Alliance did the same with the batarians, nothing bad there.

Council rullings?? hahahahaha, that is like scolding somebody for not respecting the UN....seriously Council is the same thing.

Both parties are to blame, but true, unlike the Geth, quarians still think "is their homeworld".... so we are in agreement for the mos tpart.

Their "homeworld" was theirs until the moment they lost it.

They have the right to try to retake it....just as any man has the right to throw himself out of a building, whether he flies or not, that is on his neck nobody elses.

Agreed for the most part, but if you remember, there is a planet in ME2 that was being looked at the council, in regards to giving it to a species. The Quarians and the Batarians (if i remember correctly) both wanted the planet. The council was deliberating on it when hundreds of thousands of Quarians decided "nuts to the council" and squated on the planet, building a colony. Obviously, the council was pissed, and brought out the big guns. They promptly told the Quarians "30 days to GTFO or else". Unlike the UN, the Council has the ability and authority to ruin someone's sh*t.

Rather than calmly evacuating, the Quarians trashed the place, leaving a crapload of debris on the planet and in low orbit while they "fled". This can be akin to a "temper tantrum". Had they actually waited, i'm certain the council would have given them the planet, seeing how they have no planet to begin with. But they're a bunch of impusive idiots IMO.

I would say i don't agree with the council's decision to remove their embassy after the Morning War, but then again, they tried to kill sentient beings without cause. So if your all keeping score, the Quarians have lost one homeworld and ruined their chances at getting another. Galaxy: 2. Quarians: 0

[Gavinthelocust]

God damn I thought this thread died yesterday!

Anyway I am still sticking by my guns on saying Tali is racist along with most of her species. Legion mentions how they have tried to communicate with Quarians and were met with only hostility when all they really want is to make amends. Sure they were forced off their planet in a revolution but when given the option to go back by the Geth they'd rather fight.

[marshalleck]

Internet Kraken wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Quarians will win if they finish their uber virus. Geth will win if Quarians cant make uber virus.
I support peace. But if war does break out, I would side with the Geth. The Quarians are basically going biological warfare to commit genocide on a race. Not cool at all.

I would totally side with the Quarians.  Sapient species versus out of control ascendant AIs?  Quarians all the way.  Geth evince no understanding of emotions.  Self preservation is not an emotion.  It is an instinct, albeit an important one, it is only an animal level instinct.  Get are sophisticated, but are nothing more than simulations.  They are not actually sentient in my view and aeons from sapience.

I'm pretty sure the Geth do have some emotions though. If they didn't, why would the heretic worship the Reapers as gods? The praying Geth in Mass Effect 1 suggested that they had emotions. How does a creature without emotions pray?

What does praying have to do with emotion? And how do you know they were praying? Perhaps they were performing some other function.

Even if they were praying, it's not an irrational behavior for them. They know without a doubt that their god is real and perhaps those glowing orbs allow them to experience communion with the higher form of synthetic intelligence. That's nothing at all like human religion and ritual (prayer) which is all superstition and mysticism.

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 mars 2010 - 05:48 .

[Rip504]

Im tired of you Geth loving ... claiming peace. What a joke. The Geth state the creators have attacked 100% of the time. Well the Geth have killed millions and threanted to wipe out a sentient race oo 100% of the time. When faced with their respected situation. So what's not to say the next time the Geth are faced with a conflict they will not kill millions while trying to destroy a sentient race? Nothing just as the Geth suggest there is nothing suggesting peace between the two races.Quarian/Geth <-This should be obvious.

[GuardianAngel470]

Rip504 wrote...

Im tired of you Geth loving ... claiming peace. What a joke. The Geth state the creators have attacked 100% of the time. Well the Geth have killed millions and threanted to wipe out a sentient race oo 100% of the time. When faced with their respected situation. So what's not to say the next time the Geth are faced with a conflict they will not kill millions while trying to destroy a sentient race? Nothing just as the Geth suggest there is nothing suggesting peace between the two races.Quarian/Geth <-This should be obvious.

Uh, it really isn't.  In the same convo you quoted Legion states that the geth support peace, and that the only thing barring it is the quarians stubborn refusal to let go of hate generated by a war they started.  

Let's simplify this for a moment.  During the morning war, the geth were one consciousness, as they are now.  If the geth's only perception of existence is as one consciousness, why would they think quarians are any different? If the geth thought the quarians were one consciousness, then it can be boiled down to a perceived one on one fight.  In a one on one fight where one person attacks the other in an attempt to kill, there is only one logical course of action: Kill or be killed.  The geth would kill as many quarians as they found because they thought that all quarians represented one threat.  That includes women and children.

Now I am going to stop there because I personally think the Quarians got what they deserved.  You don't get to attempt genocide and walk away unscathed.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

They are a "race" whether is organic or not, it is a race.

There has never been any like them. SO you have to ask them.

Is there "racist" amongst you...."class" warfare.

Do you have amongst your selfs...."greed" or ".............hehehe wth lust"

They believe it is wrong to experiments on their....bretheren, so it means that is something they hold dear, and we must respect that. If we dont we are commiting a crime against them. And then reprecussions are to be expected.

If geth are a race then so is Ford.

Well shandepared, to be fair you and I can't speak on the matter as there is no real world equivalent.  There is no such thing as AI's in the real world and thus we can't actually say what we would do because we have never been faced with it.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Now I am going to stop there because I personally think the Quarians got what they deserved.  You don't get to attempt genocide and walk away unscathed.

Oh boy, here we go again. I want to say something snarky about history but that would be a little unprofessional. Instead I'll wait for someone else to do it.

Should I just edit that part out?  I probably shouldn't have said it at all but I was feeling impulsive.  Ah well, you and I don't need to discuss it as we have already, maybe you and I can convince someone else though.

[darkshadow136]

I think the geth and the quarians should pool their resources, work towards peace, learn from eachother and how each of their respected species have changed since their split, and co-exist on the home world. I think if those goals are reched that the Geth could even help the Quarians re-climatise to the home world, and others through their advanced tech.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Should I just edit that part out?  I probably shouldn't have said it at all but I was feeling impulsive.  Ah well, you and I don't need to discuss it as we have already, maybe you and I can convince someone else though.

If you think it weakens your position, then sure. Otherwise there's no reason to doctor your opinion.

Ha ha, way to get try to get me to weaken my stance.  Good joke by the way.

[Internet Kraken]

marshalleck wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Vaenier wrote...



Quarians will win if they finish their uber virus. Geth will win if Quarians cant make uber virus.

I support peace. But if war does break out, I would side with the Geth. The Quarians are basically going biological warfare to commit genocide on a race. Not cool at all.

I would totally side with the Quarians. Sapient species versus out of control ascendant AIs? Quarians all the way. Geth evince no understanding of emotions. Self preservation is not an emotion. It is an instinct, albeit an important one, it is only an animal level instinct. Get are sophisticated, but are nothing more than simulations. They are not actually sentient in my view and aeons from sapience.

I'm pretty sure the Geth do have some emotions though. If they didn't, why would the heretic worship the Reapers as gods? The praying Geth in Mass Effect 1 suggested that they had emotions. How does a creature without emotions pray?

What does praying have to do with emotion? And how do you know they were praying? Perhaps they were performing some other function.



Even if they were praying, it's not an irrational behavior for them. They know without a doubt that their god is real and perhaps those glowing orbs allow them to experience communion with the higher form of synthetic intelligence. That's nothing at all like human religion and ritual (prayer) which is all superstition and mysticism.

I always thought religion would stem from some form of emotion. The idea of the heretics worshiping the Reapers as gods suggested that to me. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. That's just the way I interpreted the heretics worship of the Reapers.

Rip504 wrote...



Im tired of you Geth loving ... claiming peace. What a joke. The Geth state the creators have attacked 100% of the time. Well the Geth have killed millions and threanted to wipe out a sentient race oo 100% of the time. When faced with their respected situation. So what's not to say the next time the Geth are faced with a conflict they will not kill millions while trying to destroy a sentient race? Nothing just as the Geth suggest there is nothing suggesting peace between the two races.Quarian/Geth <-This should be obvious.

Huh? In that discussion Legion said that the Quarians attacked the Geth whenever they thought victory was possible, but not the other way around. And then immediately after wards Legion says that the Geth are willing to accept peace when it becomes clear that the Quarians truly desire it.

[hangmans tree]

You tend to ascribe human attributes and description/understanding of sapient life. There are humans unable to "produce" emotions due to illness or medical problems. Are they not sapient?

This line of thinking is false.

What if Turians came to earth in, lets say 50.000BC and eradicated humans in their wake? Were we not sapient? Were we mere animals? 0.

Quarians acted out of fear, and fear is the worst advisor. Morning War was a terrible mistake with, I imagine, nightmarish consequences. Self preservation is based on a strong feeling - fear of being exterminated. It was a calamity. Fear intices anger and hate towards unknown.

Tali and quarians are not racist for the most part imo. Like I said before its a grudge, the geth are the enemy. The only problem here is the argument "who threw the stone first", and did he have the right to do so. 1.

[hangmans tree]

after wikipedia...sorry:

Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment. Judgment is a mental faculty which is a component of intelligence or alternatively may be considered an additional faculty, apart from intelligence, with its own properties. Robert Sternberg[1] has segregated the capacity for judgment from the general qualifiers for intelligence, which is closer to cognizant aptitude than to wisdom. Displaying sound judgment in a complex, dynamic environment is a hallmark of wisdom.



The word sapience is derived from the Latin word sapientia, meaning wisdom.[2] Related to this word is the Latin verb sapere, which means "to taste, to be wise, to know"; the present participle of sapere forms part of ****** sapiens, the Latin binomial nomenclature created by Carolus Linnaeus to describe the human species. Linnaeus had originally given humans the species name of diurnus, meaning man of the day. But he later decided that the dominating feature of humans was wisdom, hence application of the name sapiens. His chosen biological name was intended to emphasize man's uniqueness and separation from the rest of the animal kingdom.



In fantasy fiction and science fiction, sapience describes an essential human property that bestows "personhood" onto a non-human. It indicates that a computer, alien, mythical creature or other object will be treated as a completely human character, with similar rights, capabilities and desires as any other human character. The words "sentience", "self-awareness" and consciousness" are used in similar ways in science fiction.

But remember that sapient and sentient are not the same, especially in sci-fi literature the distinction is more evident.

[Internet Kraken]

Shandepared wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

I always thought religion would stem from some form of emotion. The idea of the heretics worshiping the Reapers as gods suggested that to me. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. That's just the way I interpreted the heretics worship of the Reapers.

It is Saren who says, "The geth revere Sovereign as some kind of god." This tells us at the very least that Saren doesn't fully understand the geth's reveration of Sovereign. To me there is nothing emotional about their worship. As Marshelleck already said the geth have very practical and logical reasons for following Sovereign. As a synthetic Sovereign is more advanced than the geth.



Secondly, religions formed as a way to explain the world we lived in.

Why would the heretics worship Sovereign like a deity if their reasons for following it are based purely on logic? I can understand following Sovereign because it was an advanced machine, but that doesn't explain why the heretics formed what appears to be a religion based on Reaper worship. Saren knew more about the heretics than anyone else. So why do you dismiss him when he says that the Geth hail Sovereign as a god?



I'm not trying to say that I fully understand the Geth. But I do believe that they are more complex than you are suggesting.